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Author Topic: TWA is *NOW* profitable.. Are you surprised??
Bob H
Post Captain
Member # 287

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(This is the same post on PB AMR & TWA MB’s)

Yesterday AMR completed the transfer and acquisition of TWA’s assets. IMO, history will show this as one of the greatest financial decisions to have ever happened in the industry.

While some will argue (without factual support) that TWA was a “$loser” and as such is ONLY costing AA and employees future “profit sharing” checks, I suggest that the facts show just the opposite.

1. The $3 billion in debt often referred to is mostly acft leases that AMR completed thorough due diligence on and ONLY picked and choose specific property/capital leases they (AMR) were convinced would add asset value to the bottom line. More importantly, AMR was able to “clean house” and eliminate ***ANY/ALL*** unnecessary debt, contracts and leases through the {sect 363} BK.

2. The $742 million cash/sale price for assets received the following in return to AMR..

-Worldspan (estimated value $200 mill and will probably be sold or traded).

-Over 150 coveted slots (mostly unused by TWA) at DCA/LGA & JFK (CAL was willing to offer $400 mill for just some of these slots).

-Over $200 million in A/R and pre-paid deposits.

-2,300 qualified line pilots, 4,000 qualified F/A’s & thousands of (already) qualified/trained dispatchers, mechanics, RSP’s, agents etc. The cost to train these personnel would be well in excess of $300 million.

-$4 billion in annual revenues. In AA’s recent 10K SEC filing they WERE only planning a 3% growth rate (without TWA). TWA IMMEDIATELY adds 20% and seven times AMR’s planned growth rate. It would take several years internally to add the growth (passengers, routes, acft, employees & capital fixtures) that TWA adds overnight.

-Dozens of route authorities (primarily International).

Each of the above assets will be transferred onto AMR’s balance sheet offsetting most if not all of the $742 million purchase price.

LT Capital leases/debt are NOT included in “operating” profits/losses.
============
Yea, I know TWA lost money for the past 12 years.. I guess you must’ve read that somewhere ?

So how many of you know WHY TWA kept losing money??

If you think TWA lost money since Compton entered management in 1997 (COO/PRES Dec ’97) (CEO May ’99) you should’ve seen the losses (and 2 BK’s) **BEFORE** he took over!

Would you be surprised to know that **SINCE** Compton took over,, TWA…

-went from last to first in on time and reliability in the industry? (Required to gain ANY LF/market share & ff/s)

-Decreased aircraft fleet age from approx industry last (19+ years) to nearly half that NOW.

-Had the largest acft order in TWA’s 75-year history for airbuses and Boeings.

-Had one of the highest Load Factors in the industry.

-Had nearly the industry highest $revenue per acft (based on similar size/asm’s aircraft).

-TWA’s recent 4th qtr estimates combined with 9-month SEC filings for 2000 show one of the best 4th qtrs and year in the past decade (least operating losses). Note: TWA 10K/Q SEC filings are not available since 9/30/00.

[Based on the numbers I've seen, I think my previous operating, estimates from last summer are real close.
4th qtr ’00 (-$91.5 mill)
1st qtr ’01 (-$108.7 mill.. does not include unknown BK expenses)
(note: Operating includes Non-cash expenses i.e., Deprec/Ammort & some in Other)]
=========
=========
The above shows the past history.. The following shows why TWALLC is **NOW** profitable for AMR and will only add to any future “profit sharing” checks..

It's my VERY strong opinion that TWA "managed" (somewhat) to intentionally draw down the cash in order to "force" the Jan BK. I also BELIEVE that with the IAM contract coming amendable (1/31), Compton & BOD knew there was NO long-term future by re-negotiating the Jan 12 $100 mill AR note. In the end (after IAM) TWA would have been down to "nothing of value" considering Karabu effect, high fuel prices, high acft lease costs, single hub and small network etc.).

========
-Karabu ticket agreement is gone, even conservative estimates have Karabu costing TWA at least $100 mill in lower yields (I think the direct and indirect cost is much closer to $150-$175 mill).

-Acft lease/rents for TWA (1st 9 mos 2000, last SEC filing) were $420 mill... AMR's for same period were $411.5 mill only $8.5 mill more for an airline 5 times as large.

-Fuel cost per gallon for TWA (1st 9 mos 2000) averaged 89.99 cents (un-hedged). AMR's avg (net hedged) was 73.6 cents.
---------
---------
Just using the factors above...

Revenue-
Adding back 80% of the Karabu loss ($80 mill) improves the RASM to 9.0 cents.

Obviously AMR's large network and yield management WILL provide further increases in TWA's revenues. Adding TW's routes to AMR's routes WILL also improve yields and thereby make ASM's more $productive.

Expenses-
Fuel- Using AA's avg net fuel cost (1st 9 months '00) TWA would've saved $83.1 million.

Acft Leases/rents- Using AMR's leverage it is estimated that TWA would have saved $300 mill on acft leases/rents.

Summary-

With JUST the above three changes...
TWA's RASM would've gone up to 9.0 cents (was 8.72)..
TWA's CASM would've dropped to 8.7 cents (was 9.75)..

Operational profit (passenger or/and operational) is the difference between RASM & CASM. AMR also left behind TWA’s worst two qtrs historically.

Note: for same period (1st 9 months 2000) AA lost money comparing RASM/CASM (RASM=10.15 cents.... CASM=10.17).

(The above RASM is passenger revenue only and does not include freight and other.)

Sorry for any "numbers" confusion..

Bob H

[This message has been edited by Bob H (edited 10 April 2001).]


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smilinjack
The Big Boss
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Bob.....

I agree...

Thanks for posting that info here.

Still golfing in PSP ,
Jack


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robw
Fourm Captain
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Not me either. I regularly theorized that TWA could be a profitable company with the leases reorganized, and Karabu eliminated.

Speaking of reorganization, has anyone heard how quickly the changes will be made at airports like SFO. As you all know, TWA used to have a maintenance hangar at SFO that then became an oversized cargo facility rented from the city. TWA terminated the lease, but then sublet part of it and still used the building for cargo. Just last week they ripped the TWA name off the door of the building.

Are the gates and cargo moving immediately to AA locations? I hope so. AA has a nice gate area, and the old TWA gates were pretty dumpy (as a side note, many stations have been getting facelifts, but they were selective at SFO...moveable stuff only. No improvements in the gate monitors which were the worst at the airport and unusable most of the time, gates themselves, etc.. I think this tells us TWA knew it would be changing at SFO whether through an AWA move or an AA move). AA will save a ton of money by terminating all SFO TWA leases, and better utilizing their nice gate area and club at SFO. I just hope we will be seeing Claudette, Cliff and Margie at the Admiral's Club.

I start my big Germany and New York trip in a couple of weeks and I will be curious to see what is going on at SFO and LAX. I will also be stopping at CDG, JFK, and STL.

Finally, hope the boss is enjoying the PSP weather. I am sitting at home recovering from "minor" surgery. While it is nice to be away front the office, cabin fever is setting in. Its no fun being at home if one cannot play except with the computer or DVD. Luckily I have saved up all of my flying/aviation magazines for this long week.

Rob


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B-757-200
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No, Bob; I'm not suprised.I'm am, however, suprised that the St.Louis Blues made it past the 1st round! GO KINGS GO!!!
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AABob
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BobH, a few questions.

Where would TWA be today if it weren't for Karabu? Not a loaded question. I submit, TWA is around, today, because of Karabu.

In Jan. 2000, DAL paid 1.6 billion for the portion of Comair it didn't already own. AA paid 742 million for some TWA assets. (NO A/C)!!! *FACT*

Trans World Airlines Fleet as of December 31, 2000
In Service Out of Service All Current Aircraft Orders/Options
Owned Op. Lease Cap. Lease Total Owned Op. Lease Total Owned Leased Total Orders Options
B717-200 1/ - 15 - 15 - - - - 15 15 35 50
MD82 - 26 15 41 - - - - 41 41 - -
MD83 - 62 - 62 - - - - 62 62 - -
B757-200 2/ - 27 - 27 - - - - 27 27 - 16
B767-200EM 3/ 5 2 - 7 5 - - 5 2 7 - -
B767-300ER 4/ - 9 - 9 - - - - 9 9 - -
DC9-31 - 14 - 14 - - - - 14 14 - -
DC9-32 - 12 - 12 - 1 1 - 13 13 - -
DC9-33 - 1 - 1 - - - - 1 1 - -
DC9-51 - - - - - 4 4 - 4 4 - -
A318-120 - - - - - - - - - - 25 1
A319-132 - - - - - - - - - - 20 -
A320-200 - - - - - - - - - - - 80
L1011-100 - - - - - - 1 1 - 1 - -
B747-128 - - - - - 1 1 - 1 1 - -
B727-231 - - - - - 2 4 2 2 4 - -
Totals 5 168 15 188 3 8 11 8 191 199 80 147


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, so that didn't copy and paste too well. (translation, you're not bringing any airplanes, they're coming from various leasing companies.)

Your premise that TWA is now profitable is unproveable. The day of closing TWA no longer existed. Its numbers were no longer TWA numbers. On the revenue side, its fare, passenger, and revenue mix is now diluted with AA FF's/cargo/etc. On the cost side, I don't even know where to start. So there is no basis for your statement. Correct? No malice intended here.

The 4% market share is a stretch. Yes TWA held a 4% market share. In the last year, TWA became somewhat of a parasite in some of the AA high yield markets. Your focus cities of LAX, and SJU, are bread and butter for AA. Without TWA in those markets what happens to AA's yield? I submit if TWA liquidated, AA would have gained at least 1.5% market share (almost half) of TWA's capacity without having to pay for anything. Of course, having control of all of it is better than allowing competitors to use it against us. Again, no malice.

If the new runway gets built at STL what happens to your training facility? I'm told its being condemed. $$ AA will spend regardless.

I get the overwelming sensation you're still trying to "sell" this great deal for general consumption.

Here's my final multi-part question. If the IAM and ALPA didn't waive their Scope and llp's, the deal was off. Why? What is your MEC telling you guys? No malice intended. I keep reading on Planebusiness from the likes of Legacy, 717flyer, 767-300er, etc. that they'll sue if they dont get "fair and equitable" treatment. Thats fine. Anbody can call an 800 number and get an Edgar Snyder to drag someone in to a court room, but the *fact* is, there is no basis for the presence in a coutroom. A judge can and will dismiss any action you guys take. "there is a lot of anxiety right now" is another statement I've read. I don't understand this. Could it be because now its safe to go buy that house or new car now? " I've been eating peanutbutter and jelly for breakfast lunch and dinner." Is another one.

If you read the Air Canada, Canadian, arbitration award, 10% of the Canadian pilots got stapled. They were half the size of Air Canada. Some CP pilots had adjusted seniority of up to 10 years. CP being a carrier that brought a pacific network, south american network, and a newer facilities. They weren't bankrupt (close), and didn't waive their protections.

In closing, I've run the numbers on your *disclaimered* definition of fair and equitable. The results puts you as a mid 1986 hire date at AA. Around a 3300 number at AA, not including TWA'ers senior to you. Just *facts* Bob.

No malice intended. I've posted an e-mail address in my profile.


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jetnoise
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Hey AABob, why don't you sit back, have a sandwich, and drink a glass of milk...? Or take that much needed vacation. (no malice).
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B717FLYER
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AABob:

First, I'm not answering for Bob H. He's the facts-and-figures man.

Second, I wish to thank you for presenting your opinions unemotionally and uninsultingly. Few of the posters on PBB are able to do that.

Just some observations at-large. If all your statements were facts then TWA would in fact bring little of value to AA. I realize you probably don't hold Carty in high esteem, but do really believe he would've bought us if he didn't see profit?

quote:
(translation, you're not bringing any airplanes, they're coming from various leasing companies.)

Of course we're bringing airplanes. What does it matter if they're owned or leased? Bob Kudwa told us this morning that Carty said he wanted 178 TWA airplanes. AA (through LLC) has their leases now.

quote:
If the new runway gets built at STL what happens to your training facility? I'm told its being condemned. $$ AA will spend regardless.

So? They and we knew that. There are also numerous other expenses that AA will incur to effect the integration. Don't forget how little AA paid for TWA's assets.

quote:
I get the overwhelming sensation you're still trying to "sell" this great deal for general consumption

Of course we are, just as you're trying to "devalue" this deal. We say to the APA "treat us nice because we're bringing profit to AA." The APA says to us "you're bringing little if anything to us, so just take your pay raise and be happy." Who can be an impartial judge of who's right?

quote:
"there is a lot of anxiety right now" is another statement I've read. I don't understand this. Could it be because now its safe to go buy that house or new car now? "

Uh oh, I detect sarcasm. Just to clue you in, money is not my primary concern. That's right, just paying us more won't make us happy. I'm not independently wealthy, but with our contractual raises we're not starving. Losing Pref Bidding is a biggie here. The only reason pilots can be against PB is that they don't understand it. PB is a major quality of life issue.

Now don't get me wrong, the pay raise and job stability are great. But it's narrow-minded thinking to just assume that throwing money at us should make us happy. I don't believe most TWA pilots really care whether the APA can get "Delta +1%" pay. You're used to competing with UA/DL in that way, but we'd rather see work-rule improvements in reserve and vacation areas first.

To bottom line this, along the lines of Allegheny/Mohawk, we just don't want to see either group win any huge seniority windfall. Stapling TWA pilots en masse constitutes a windfall for the APA. A pay-raise with complete seniority loss for us doesn't qualify as a windfall in our view.

Remember, anyone could've bought TWA, but AA won.


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Bob H
Post Captain
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quote:
Originally posted by AABob
BobH, a few questions.

Reply-
I Love to answer questions.. I hate wasting my time doing research and supporting answers with the *facts* when someone’s ONLY priority is to force their (narrow minded) views.
I.e., “Don’t confuse my opinions with your facts”
====

quote:
Where would TWA be today if it weren't for Karabu? Not a loaded question. I submit, TWA is around, today, because of Karabu.

Answer-
I will only assume by your suggestion that you are VERY unfamiliar with the “Karabu ticket agreement”.

One of AMR’s *requirements* per the “TWA asset purchase agreement” was the termination of “Karabu” before closing. If it was such a money maker (as you seem to suggest) why didn’t AMR make any attempt to re-negotiate it.

I’m sure Icahn will make you a GREAT deal if you want to convince Mr. Carty how Icahn can increase AA’s revenue!! Do you have any $numbers to support your claim or is the statement above just YOUR “feeling”?
====

quote:
In Jan. 2000, DAL paid 1.6 billion for the portion of Comair it didn't already own. AA paid 742 million for some TWA assets. (NO A/C)!!! *FACT*

Reply-
So.. What’s your point?? In my original article I clearly identified the **assets** I valued as applicable to the $742 million. None were listed as acft.

The acft leases were, as I stated, re-negotiated but were the reason for the $3 billion of debt.

You do suggest a VERY important point... AMR, due to the {sect 363 BK} WAS and DID choose to accept **ONLY** those contracts (acft), leases, equipment, routes, employees etc. that they were convinced AFTER "due diligence" that would add to AA/AMR's bottom line going forward..

In the purchase you mention above and AA's previous acquisition of Air Cal and Reno.. **ALL** of the assets were purchased.. even the assets they (AMR) didn't want.

Thanks for making that VERY important point and I assume you will share that with your/our fellow AA employees .
====

quote:
Your premise that TWA is now profitable is unproveable. The day of closing TWA no longer existed. Its numbers were no longer TWA numbers…(edited out).. So there is no basis for your statement.

Reply-
OK.. You win.. I should’ve said TWA(LLC).. there.. do you feel better?

OK.. You win again.. technically it is not possible to **PROVE** a future event..

SO… Could you please prove how the (future) TWA(LLC) routes, acft, assets etc. etc. are going to **LOSE** money for AA/AMR.. I guess if I can’t prove one thing, you can still prove the other thing??

I’ll still be interested in your facts (figures) to support your “premise”.. Does that sound better?
====

quote:
The 4% market share is a stretch. Yes TWA held a 4% market share. In the last year, TWA became somewhat of a parasite in some of the AA high yield markets. Your focus cities of LAX, and SJU, are bread and butter for AA. Without TWA in those markets what happens to AA's yield? I submit if TWA liquidated, AA would have gained at least 1.5% market share (almost half) of TWA's capacity without having to pay for anything. Of course, having control of all of it is better than allowing competitors to use it against us.

Reply-
I’m not sure where you got the “4% market share” you quote above,, but it wasn’t in my article above!

Are you going to prove your suggestions above regarding your following statement..

quote:
AA would have gained at least 1.5% market share (almost half) of TWA's capacity

I find your “suggestion” above rather incredulous (no malice intended) since the LAX & SJU revenue for TWA was a very small % of gross revenues. I’ll suggest you might want to spend some time learning more about what TWA has/was before making some of your accusations.. (again, no malice intended).
====

quote:
If the new runway gets built at STL what happens to your training facility? I'm told its being condemed. $$ AA will spend regardless.

Reply-
I’m told that the expense for replacing all of the (former) TWA facilities is part of the Lambert W1W master plan.
====

quote:
I get the overwelming sensation you're still trying to "sell" this great deal for general consumption.

Reply-
My “overwhelming sensations” usually are about something far different then the issues you’re trying to sell .

What’s to sell?? Mr. Carty and the AMR BOD already **BOUGHT** the TWA assets!!

You may have read in numerous numerous articles by aviation/airline consultants and Mr. Carty what a **HUGE** benefit TWA… WAS/IS … adding to AA. Then again, I get the idea you don’t think much of Mr. Carty as an airline CEO?? I could be wrong though.. I just have to ask.. Is there any other airline CEO you **think** is doing a better job than Msrs Carty/Crandall?
====

quote:
… the *fact* is, there is no basis for the presence in a coutroom. A judge can and will dismiss any action you guys take… "there is a lot of anxiety right now" is another statement I've read. I don't understand this. Could it be because now its safe to go buy that house or new car now? " I've been eating peanutbutter and jelly for breakfast lunch and dinner."

Reply-
a) I NEVER liked PB & J..

b) I’m not an attorney but why are you even bringing this issue up? Based on **your** proof.. The TWA pilots won’t have any claim against “Fair & Equitable”.. Case closed.. GOOOOD BYE!! (That’s a cute show don’t you think? No malice intended!).

c).. I can’t speak for the other guys.. I live in a new 7,000 sq ft house, my wife.. drives a 2000 suburban (leather Inter not the cheap version), has a Rolex and plenty of diamonds. My kids go to a private school and not long ago I sold my 47’ S&S yacht and my condo in Aspen (it was ski in/out.. not the cheap side of town). Did I mention that I don’t believe in ANY non-taxable debt? (No malice intended but some of us didn’t just fall off the turnip truck or was that the cotton wagon?)
====

quote:
If you read the Air Canada, Canadian, arbitration award, 10% of the Canadian pilots got stapled. They were half the size of Air Canada. Some CP pilots had adjusted seniority of up to 10 years. CP being a carrier that brought a pacific network, south american network, and a newer facilities. They weren't bankrupt (close), and didn't waive their protections.

Reply-
Did we change the subject? I thought we were discussing TWA’s, sorry TWA(LLC) “chance” of being profitable?? By the way have you had a chance to read AMR’s recent annual report?? They “claim” TWA, sorry (no malice intended) TWA(LLC)

quote:
“TWA IS now profitable.. 2nd **AND** 3rd qtr ‘01”

I wonder how they “proved” that??
====
quote:
In closing, I've run the numbers on your *disclaimered* definition of fair and equitable. The results puts you as a mid 1986 hire date at AA. Around a 3300 number at AA, not including TWA'ers senior to you. Just *facts* Bob. No malice intended. I've posted an e-mail address in my profile.

Reply-
In closing.. Your agenda appears to be more interested in trying to dis-credit the facts so that **your** idea of integration “feels” better..

If you want to talk about profits & losses then let’s do it.. I’ll listen/read and discuss your numbers ANYTIME!!

(just for the record)
I was hired in Nov 1974 (OZ). I’ve been flying the DC9/MD8 for around 25 years.

1/01/01 my TWA system sen was #468.. I choose to stay on the MD8 because quality of life is far more important than big airplanes or a couple of $bucks more per hour. (I’m pretty senior in STL on the MD8 and that’s all I want to keep for the next nine years)

Based on age 60 retirements my “projected” TWA (system) seniority WOULD have been (without any early/medicals numbers).
#326 (1/1/02)… #221 (1/1/03)… #137 (1/1/04)… #91 (1/1/05)… #50 (1/1/06)… #29 (1/1/07)… #14 (1/1/08)… #6 (1/1/09) and finally…. #4 on my 60th birthday (02/03/10) {Are you going to wish me a HB come Feb?}

Perhaps I didn’t understand your statement above but if you want to give me AA/TW system sen #3300 (on the combined list), less TW guys ahead of me I’ll take it.. I’ll even pay a large bonus to get that new # (3300) on the combined list!!

Then again—If you want to discuss F & E integration we can do that to..

Then again—If you want to use subtle sarcasm with “no malice intended”.. I’ll give it my best shot.. If I have improperly interpreted the intent of your message,, MY SINCERE APOLOGY.

My email is always available along with my REAL name!!

Bob Herbst
numbersbob@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by Bob H (edited 03 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Bob H (edited 03 May 2001).]


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rampguy
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AABob. Obviously you did not heed my warning over on plane business. You met the master and he is Bob (H). If you didn't run it through a spread sheet, past 3 economists and get it blessed by the pope then leave it alone. BTW, if you think karabu saved TWA then why don't you give me $.45 for ever dollar you make then you will have a much improved financial position at home and still be able to brag to the boys at work about the economic master stroke you pulled off. Uh, no malice intended.
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twapilot2
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quote:
Originally posted by B717FLYER:
Now don't get me wrong, the pay raise and job stability are great. But it's narrow-minded thinking to just assume that throwing money at us should make us happy. I don't believe most TWA pilots really care whether the APA can get "Delta +1%" pay. You're used to competing with UA/DL in that way, but we'd rather see work-rule improvements in reserve and vacation areas first.

To bottom line this, along the lines of Allegheny/Mohawk, we just don't want to see either group win any huge seniority windfall. Stapling TWA pilots en masse constitutes a windfall for the APA. A pay-raise with complete seniority loss for us doesn't qualify as a windfall in our view.


Agreed! I've been living quite comfortably on my TWA wages and enjoying a wonderful quality of life. I'm not prepared to throw quality away in exchange for mere quantity.

If course, with a little open-mindedness from the APA, we all could have both. The APA would have 2,400 more pilots pushing hard for that DAL+1% (and possibly adopting some of TWA's workrules as well) if they were to treat the TWA people fairly in the integration. If the APA continues on it's present path, I don't see much sympathy or support from the TWA people at all. Unity indeed!


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B-757-200
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AABob: I don't remember ever saying I would sue if I did'nt get fair and equitable integration at AA on PB.I said I'm FOR fair and equitable.I still am.Whether or not ALPA pilots sue APA after it's over is'nt up to me, but if I get stapled after 12 years in this business, you can bet I'll be upset being behind some new-hire that was'nt even flying while I was flying wide-bodies across oceans.

About the Air Canada/Canadian integration: Did you know that Canadian pilots got ratioed---ALL of them? AC was'nt twice the size of CP either; it was 220 pilots at AC versus 1400 at CP.Many of CP's pilots were long-time senior pilots, just like the TWA list.The first two proposals have been changed, but the latest, from an arbitrator, was this keep in mind it's the 3rd integration solution) The first 400 CP pilots get a 2-for-1 ratio, the next 600 a 1-for-7, and the last 400 a 1-for-2.CP pilots do lose more seniority, but it does'nt staple ANY of the CP pilots, except 1.This arbitrator's ruling now goes to the Canadian board of Labor for ratification; since this board is located in Quebec, and AC is headquartered there, you can guess what the outcome will be.


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AABob
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Well, where do I start. Might as well go in order.

Jetnoise, milk is good for you. Did you know just 1 8oz. glass has only 30% of the USRDA of calcium? I need to drink more! Thanks for the reminder!!

B717FLYER:

quote:
First, I'm not answering for Bob H.

Strange, BobH didn't even answer the question I asked!

quote:
Uh oh, I detect sarcasm. Just to clue you in, money is not my primary concern. That's right, just paying us more won't make us happy. I'm not independently wealthy, but with our contractual raises we're not starving. Losing Pref Bidding is a biggie here. The only reason pilots can be against PB is that they don't understand it. PB is a major quality of life issue.

I agree with you on the PB thing. You know, this is the 3rd time I'm posting a reply here to the responses and E-mails I've gotten on my posting. I'm thinking cospiracy, for not being able to post, but in reality, its probably just pilot error. OK, back to the PB thing. A few years ago, AA tried to force this on the flight attendants. As far as I know, its never been addressed for the pilot group. At least to our knowledge. You have to understand the way we've been conditioned here at AA. If the company wants something, it must be bad for us. Thats the nutshell. 4 legs good, 2 legs bad. I'll say this much, if PB as you know it ever sees the light of day at AA, it'll be because they bought it, control it, and can modify, bias turn off, corrupt,de-tune, etc.etc, it. You guys seem to love it. I'll be looking at it objectively now, more so, with your collective feed back on it. Thanks.

quote:
To bottom line this, along the lines of Allegheny/Mohawk, we just don't want to see either group win any huge seniority windfall. Stapling TWA pilots en masse constitutes a windfall for the APA. A pay-raise with complete seniority loss for us doesn't qualify as a windfall in our view.

Uh-oh, my turn to detect something here. Not sure what. Is it bias, selective point making? You use the term windfall. Hmmm I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, hoping you'll elaborate.

Ok, lets talk ALPA merger policy, and A/M.......*disclaimer* (gawd, aren't those asterisks obnoxious?)

In its current form, most recently amended in May of 1998 states:
The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger reps. should attemptto MATCH EQUITIES TO VARIOUS METHODS OF INTEGRATION until a fair and equitable agreement is is reached, keeping in mind the following goals, in no particular order:
a. Preserve jobs. (score TWA 1, AA 0.)
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other. (score, too early to tell, perception being the road block still 1-0 TWA)
c. Maintain or improve pre- merger pay and standard of living. (score, TWA,2, AA, 0, with a game still in progress.)
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status. ( score, tie, 2-0-1)
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations. (ALL things concidered, and I hope everyones being realistic here, includine the "I'll be a captain in 5 years" set. The win here goes to TWA.
TWA takes the series. I'm only going to point to the Capital letters above and remind everyone theres a need to "match equities". So AA went from a profitable number 2 to a profitable number 1. Where did TWA go? Remember, no malice, we're seeing a huge windfall to you guys no matter where you end up on the list concidering where TWA ended up.


quote:
Remember, anyone could've bought TWA, but AA won

I'don't remember any other legal bidders, shouldn't you call this a default?


Bob H. wow...........

quote:
Reply-
I Love to answer questions.. I hate wasting my time doing research and supporting answers with the *facts* when someone’s ONLY priority is to force their (narrow minded) views.
I.e., “Don’t confuse my opinions with your facts”

I asked a few question and went off on some wild tangents. Are you a "whose line is it anyway" fan? Can I call you "Irrelevant tangent man"? haha.

quote:
Answer-
I will only assume by your suggestion that you are VERY unfamiliar with the “Karabu ticket agreement”.

Bingo Sherlock! HENCE THE QUESTION!!!!!!!Educate us please. Our understanding is that TWA needed cash to stay solvent 6-7 years ago. Nobody would give it to you except Carl. Because of TWA's inability to raise cash, KARABU was necessary. Sooo, if karabu wasn't formed, did TWA have any options, or would it have disappeared 6-7 years ago?

quote:
One of AMR’s *requirements* per the “TWA asset purchase agreement” was the termination of “Karabu” before closing. If it was such a money maker (as you seem to suggest) why didn’t AMR make any attempt to re-negotiate it.

I’m sure Icahn will make you a GREAT deal if you want to convince Mr. Carty how Icahn can increase AA’s revenue!! Do you have any $numbers to support your claim or is the statement above just YOUR “feeling”?


Bob, what the hell are you talking about? Please re-read my original question.

quote:
In Jan. 2000, DAL paid 1.6 billion for the portion of Comair it didn't already own. AA paid 742 million for some TWA assets. (NO A/C)!!! *FACT*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply-
So.. What’s your point?? In my original article I clearly identified the **assets** I valued as applicable to the $742 million. None were listed as acft.


That is my point. Value. DAL paid for value. 100 commuter A/C. Mostly rj's, but some turboprops. The value to DAL is in the *fact* that it *immediately* enhances the DAL product. Comair was tailor made for the DAL operation. Their schedule, network, traffic flow, mission, even colors and consumer appearance is for DAL. To elaborate, AA will have to spend BILLIONS to *net* comparable *value* from the TWA asset purchase, hence the word *asset*.


quote:
You do suggest a VERY important point... AMR, due to the {sect 363 BK} WAS and DID choose to accept **ONLY** those contracts (acft), leases, equipment, routes, employees etc. that they were convinced AFTER "due diligence" that would add to AA/AMR's bottom line going forward..

If **ONLY** you made this point when you broadcast your "TWA is *now* profitable" soundbite....... (question, what was the point of that statement?)

quote:
In the purchase you mention above and AA's previous acquisition of Air Cal and Reno.. **ALL** of the assets were purchased.. even the assets they (AMR) didn't want.

Thanks for making that VERY important point and I assume you will share that with your/our fellow AA employees .


Bob, I didn't say that. Show me where. I'm glad numbers are your forte', reading comp ain't. Again, no malice Bob. I'mm attacking your arguments, and positions. Not you. This is not intended to insult, just develop better, and hopefully more mutual understanding.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your premise that TWA is now profitable is unproveable. The day of closing TWA no longer existed. Its numbers were no longer TWA numbers…(edited out).. So there is no basis for your statement.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply-
OK.. You win.. I should’ve said TWA(LLC).. there.. do you feel better?

OK.. You win again.. technically it is not possible to **PROVE** a future event..

SO… Could you please prove how the (future) TWA(LLC) routes, acft, assets etc. etc. are going to **LOSE** money for AA/AMR.. I guess if I can’t prove one thing, you can still prove the other thing??


Thank you, and thank you! I never said anything about losing money. You have me confused with someone I've not met. Remember, you edited your above post twice. I didn't. Keep it up in the future, and I'll be forced to call the relevance police!

quote:
I’ll still be interested in your facts (figures) to support your “premise”.. Does that sound better?

huh?

Ok, the 4%/marketshare thing. I can't remember where saw this, so I retract it. For the moment.

quote:
I get the overwelming sensation you're still trying to "sell" this great deal for general consumption.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply-
My “overwhelming sensations” usually are about something far different then the issues you’re trying to sell .


Not selling anything Bob.

quote:
Is there any other airline CEO you **think** is doing a better job than Msrs Carty/Crandall?

Bethune is doing a pretty good job. I see no need to change execs. at AA at this time. In fact , I like Don Carty. I've met him on several occasions, he's very easy to talk to, and if you call him in his office, he WILL take the time to talk with you.

quote:
Reply-
a) I NEVER liked PB & J..

b) I’m not an attorney but why are you even bringing this issue up? Based on **your** proof.. The TWA pilots won’t have any claim against “Fair & Equitable”.. Case closed.. GOOOOD BYE!! (That’s a cute show don’t you think? No malice intended!).

c).. I can’t speak for the other guys.. I live in a new 7,000 sq ft house, my wife.. drives a 2000 suburban (leather Inter not the cheap version), has a Rolex and plenty of diamonds. My kids go to a private school and not long ago I sold my 47’ S&S yacht and my condo in Aspen (it was ski in/out.. not the cheap side of town). Did I mention that I don’t believe in ANY non-taxable debt? (No malice intended but some of us didn’t just fall off the turnip truck or was that the cotton wagon?)


Sorry, remember the reading comprehension note above? Gotta call the relevance police here for a, and c.

As for b, Neermind. We're seeing you "enthusiastically endorse"the deal, waive a bunch of stuff to make sure it happens, then dramatically change your tune... Camel and a tent come to mind, but nevermind. I retract the question.

7000 sq. feet? ewww, I wouldn't want to heat that.

quote:
If you read the Air Canada, Canadian, arbitration award, 10% of the Canadian pilots got stapled. They were half the size of Air Canada. Some CP pilots had adjusted seniority of up to 10 years. CP being a carrier that brought a pacific network, south american network, and a newer facilities. They weren't bankrupt (close), and didn't waive their protections.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply-
Did we change the subject? I thought we were discussing TWA’s, sorry TWA(LLC) “chance” of being profitable?? By the way have you had a chance to read AMR’s recent annual report?? They “claim” TWA, sorry (no malice intended) TWA(LLC)


OK, if this weren't a public web site, I'd throw the towel in at this point.

Did You Miss This?

quote:
Here's my final multi-part question. If the IAM and ALPA didn't waive their Scope and llp's, the deal was off. Why? What is your MEC telling you guys?

Yes,Bob, there was a subject change.

So the dribble stops here, Bob, I wish you no ill will. When you say you don't mind answering questions, could you at least *attemp* to answer them?

rampguy. I wasn't attacking the man. Just his statements. TWA went into bankruptcy and didn't emerge. A new AMR company did. I have problems with spin induced sound bites. Excuse me for not being impressed with his S.E.C. search/parroting prowess. I do think KARABU saved TWA. 6 or 7 years ago. Thats why I asked the question. Can you answer it? No malice.

twapilot2, and 757, I'll combine my response to the both of you. My fingers are getting tired.

Your facts about the Air Canada/ Canadian integration are wrong. Perhaps we're talking about something different. Air Canada at the point of merger had 2180 pilots on the list. 1258, at Canadian. Slightly more than 10% were stapled. I think you have a different integration result.

My only point in all of this is that stapleing is alive and well in the industry, and to continually label it as unacceptable doesn't help either side come closer to a resolution. I understand you're gagging on some of the numbers being presented. The sooner you guys accept some (big) number of you guys are going to be stapled, the sooner this can be resolved. Thats why I asked what your MEC is telling you guys.

757, go to the CAPA web site, and read the M.G. Mitchnick award. Pages 40, and 41.

So, fire away guys. maybe i should have used the unername "target"?



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B-757-200
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I know all about the Mitchnick Award, and all my buddies at CP send me e-mails frequently.What you have to understand is that the original Mitchnick Award was a DATE-BASED seniority proposal from the outset; AC pilots rallied and told their CEO that if the Mitchnick Award went through unchanged, they would resort to job action.Thru the Canadian political way, the Mitchnick Award has been changed twice, and the current proposal on the table may be modified too.In your numbers on CP pilots, are you including the flow-thrus from CP Regional? They are also on the seniority list at CP, and will be employed by AC post-merger.
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B717FLYER
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quote:
Originally posted by AABob:
Uh-oh, my turn to detect something here. Not sure what. Is it bias, selective point making? You use the term windfall. Hmmm I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, hoping you'll elaborate.

OK, I see the problem here. You see the TWA pilots' new-found pay and job security as a windfall to us whereas APA got nothing...so far. Yes, this is a windfall for us, but it wasn't at APA's expense; it was at AMR's expense! As of today the APA has lost nothing! When I referred to neither pilot group receiving a huge windfall I was specifically referring to seniority integration since that's what will directly affect the APA pilots. Therefore I'll ask that you reset your scorecard to 0-0 and continue from here.

How does the APA stand to gain or lose?

a. A staple job. (score APA 1, TWA 0)
b. a well-conceived ratio/DOH/percentage and fencing formula (score APA 0, TWA 0)
c. ????? (not gonna happen) (score APA 0, TWA 1)

So from here on APA pilots stand to gain seniority or to remain, percentage-wise, where you are, whereas TWA pilots stand to lose seniority, or remain where we are. Windfalls, anyone?

quote:
Remember, anyone could've bought TWA, but AA won.
I'don't remember any other legal bidders, shouldn't you call this a default?

I don't believe that in bankruptcy court there's such a thing as winning by default. The judge could've rejected all offers. In any case, other carriers just weren't as smart as AMR in seizing the opportunity to buy us cheap. Y'all are lucky


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AABob
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quote:
Originally posted by B-757-200:
I know all about the Mitchnick Award, and all my buddies at CP send me e-mails frequently.What you have to understand is that the original Mitchnick Award was a DATE-BASED seniority proposal from the outset; AC pilots rallied and told their CEO that if the Mitchnick Award went through unchanged, they would resort to job action.Thru the Canadian political way, the Mitchnick Award has been changed twice, and the current proposal on the table may be modified too.In your numbers on CP pilots, are you including the flow-thrus from CP Regional? They are also on the seniority list at CP, and will be employed by AC post-merger.


Hey, I'm getting the hang of this stuff. The flow throughs were not CP. In fact they were Air canada regionals, and they were not flow throughs. They were integrated in on a skewed scale, and were the reason air canada left ALPA.

Maybe we're talking about something different. I'm half canadian. Quite a few friends up there too> All YYZ based.


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AABob
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quote:
specifically referring to seniority integration

B717FLYER, the longer you hold on to the "singular" premise, the longer it will take for a "holistic" solution. APA vs. AMR? come now...............

a. staple job. gonna happen we're still working out how many.
b. ratio/yes
DOH/no
percentage/now sure what you mean here.
c. ???? /?????


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B717FLYER
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quote:
Originally posted by AABob:
B717FLYER, the longer you hold on to the "singular" premise, the longer it will take for a "holistic" solution.

We're in no hurry. Are you? (And apparantly Kudwa would like it wrapped up soon as well.)

quote:
APA vs. AMR? come now...............

As has been said numerous times, TWA's pilots deserve no more credit for our company's failure than AA's pilots deserve credit for your success. In other words the fact that we were lower paid shouldn't enter into the seniority equation because it doesn't impact the APA.

quote:
a. staple job. gonna happen we're still working out how many.

Since you're able to see the future we should get together and talk investment strategies. And who's gonna win the World Series this year? Do you use the stars for your predictions?

quote:
b. ratio/yes
DOH/no
percentage/now sure what you mean here.
c. ???? /?????

I meant that I don't know what formula the final agreement will entail. I lack your prognosticative powers. By the question marks I meant the there is no forseeable scenario where TWA pilots will gain a windfall at AA pilots' expense.


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AABob
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No hurry at all. Just want to make sure we're on the same page, and that if there's still 2 lists a year from now, that you use the list as of march 9th, 2001. People somtimes forget things.

quote:
As has been said numerous times, TWA's pilots deserve no more credit for our company's failure than AA's pilots deserve credit for your success. In other words the fact that we were lower paid shouldn't enter into the seniority equation because it doesn't impact the APA.

First sentence, agreed. You took it out of context, but no matter. Second sentence, the lower paid part is part of the A/M, ALPA merger policy. "improving pay" stands for itself. Why do you insist on discounting (repeatedly) the pay increase, and job security you're getting?

quote:
Since you're able to see the future we should get together and talk investment strategies. And who's gonna win the World Series this year? Do you use the stars for your predictions?

No stars involved, just past integration results. Arbitration awards. ALPA historical data. Call me crazy.


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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by AABob:
The flow throughs were not CP. In fact they were Air canada regionals, and they were not flow throughs. They were integrated in on a skewed scale, and were the reason air canada left ALPA.

Maybe we're talking about something different.


We are, Bob.Canadian Regional is a CP commuter/code-sharing feeder, not AC.CP Regional flies DHC-8s and F-28s, and feeds CP at YVR,YYC and other hubs.One of my buddies was hired by CP Regional in '89 and upgrades to DHC-8 Captain; he is automatically awarded CP seniority in '89, and when senior enough, he bids 737/320 F/O or 767 RFO; he the comes over this year to CP as a 767 RFO, but bids and uses passes with '89 seniority.He used the flow-thru from CP Regional to CP, not AC.We are'nt talking about the same thing; AC's regionals, not all of which are owned, did offer some flow-thru, but most of these pilots have already come up to AC due to the RJ expansion.Again, the CP pilots number 1400, including CP Regional pilots with CP seniority numbers that WILL be part of Mitchnick's Award.


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B717FLYER
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quote:
Originally posted by AABob:
Second sentence, the lower paid part is part of the A/M, ALPA merger policy. "improving pay" stands for itself. Why do you insist on discounting (repeatedly) the pay increase, and job security you're getting?

Since it didn't cost the APA anything, why do you even care?

I don't thing we're going to agree on this, so I'll speak my peace and let it go back to the boardrooms where it belongs.

You (the APA) are using our newfound job security as if you (the APA) gave it to us. Carty gave it to us, and he's getting something back for his investment. (I'm aware of the APA-AA agreement allowing the deal to close, but simply permitting something to happen isn't the same as instigating it.) You seem to want a free piece of the TWA pie that Carty bought. We see your actions as profiting at our expense.

[quote]No stars involved, just past integration results. Arbitration awards. ALPA historical data. Call me crazy.[quote]

Strange, but our guys are using the same data to argue our side. Funny how data can be interpreted differently.


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AABob
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757, good data. I've not seen the cp flow through version. We've really stayed off topic here. So with that, wish I could buy you a beer right now.
Regards

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AABob
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B717FLYER,
quote:
Since it didn't cost the APA anything, why do you even care?

Well, from the balancing equities perspective, there are those here at APA that believe in the principal of value for value. The fact that it didn't cost the APA anything is irrelevant. May I ask what all of this is costing you? If you can see value in a secure future and a pay raise, vs., what you had, APA wants somthing vs. what they had. Now, before you go grabbing the flame thrower, in the spirit of the balance of your post:
quote:
I don't thing we're going to agree on this, so I'll speak my peace and let it go back to the boardrooms where it belongs.


quote:
You (the APA) are using our newfound job security as if you (the APA) gave it to us. Carty gave it to us, and he's getting something back for his investment. (I'm aware of the APA-AA agreement allowing the deal to close, but simply permitting something to happen isn't the same as instigating it.) You seem to want a free piece of the TWA pie that Carty bought. We see your actions as profiting at our expense.

Ok, so agree to leave our pie alone. 777's A300's 737-800's DFW/ORD/MIA/LAX/LGA/BOS, etc. 780 A/C HANDS OFF!

Like I said, there are guys wanting a permanent fence around your ops. Including the old TWA pay rates. The answer is out there, it ain't going to be conjured up here. I'm trying to share an opposing view. I never said you had to like it. It is what it is. And If 757 does't drink me out of beer money, you're next!


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Bob H
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To AA Bob-

(You're really popular, do you think I could sue for "name defamation" since you're using one so close to mine? )

Since you're SOOOOO sensative.. I don't want you to feel picked on so if any of the following shouldn't apply to you.. just presume I was confused and thought I was playing "trivial pursuit".
========
========

quote:
Remember, anyone could've bought TWA, but AA won

I'don't remember any other legal bidders, shouldn't you call this a default?


This is an interesting topic.. An argument can be made (and read in the "asset purchase agreement" dated 10 Jan) that prior to public disclosure, an agreement "DIP" had already been agreed/committed to by AMR which essentially eliminated any reasonable (alternative) bid. I have reasons to believe some (other) info which made AMR the obvious "winner" from the beginning.
========

quote:
Answer-
I will only assume by your suggestion that you are VERY unfamiliar with the “Karabu ticket agreement”.
--------
Bingo Sherlock! HENCE THE QUESTION!!!!!!!Educate us please.

Sorry- Some of us get a little sensative when ANY (apparent) defense is made of Icahn (especially the "Karabu ticket agreement")

I'm not sure how many questions I've answered regarding "Karabu" I'll guess it's several hundred... So what's one more? (This is from memory, so if you want to argue anything I get the chance to review my records first)

History-
Icahn took over TWA in 1985. Lorenzo was the apparent winner until the employees worked a "deal" with Icahn. Supposedly Icahn was the lessor of two GREAT evils! OZ was later purchased in 1986 for $216 million.

You may remember the LBO's and corporate destruction that happened during the '70's-80's? The LBO's made $billions for a handful of financial "con-artists".

From 1985 to 1993, Icahn did everything humanly possible to destroy TWA leveraging everything from acft to light bulbs.

Lucrative Intl routes were sold (including London to AA in 1991 for just over $400 million.. Think it was worth it ?).

In 1993, Icahn/TWA filed BK. SEC filings will verify the massive debt he left TWA leveraged with. NO capital improvements or acft orders were completed under Icahn. TWA was left with the industries oldest fleet, facilities and infrastructure with little chance of survival.

When Icahn left in 1993 he offered TWA a loan of $190 million.

Two years later (1995), TWA was unable to service the massive debt left by Icahn and once again filed (pre-approved) BK. The "Karabu ticket agreement" was part of the court approved agreements with Icahn.

The agreement (Karabu) supposedly provided Icahn a vehicle to get his $190 mil back.

It was a 99 month agreement (ended 9/30/03) until AMR handed Icahn his walking papers.

Icahn also left the retirement funds underfunded by well over $200 million.

Icahn was permitted to sell (two) types of TWA tickets to recapture his loan and repay the PBGC retirement fund.

*Consolidator tickets (which he never sold) were limited to just over $600 million with annual limits.

*Sytem Tickets were ANY TWA ticket that did not contain a code-share segement or was O&D STL. Karabu could obtain these TWA tickets at 55% of published fare, mark them up by any amount (usually 17-22%) and they were completely unrestricted.

Completely at Icahn's discretion, he had the choice to use the proceeds (55% to TWA) from these unlimited tickets to service his loan or the PBGC debt. Obviously his loans were paid off first. In fact, with some creative financing, both loans were paid in full Dec, 1998 (5 years early based on the original 99 month agreement).

The "Karabu agreement" didn't end after the loan payoffs. Karabu continued to market TWA tickets through his well known web site and over 800 affiliated global travel agencies.

I have the actual dollar amount broken down but it was roughly 10-11% of TWA's gross EXCEPT TWA only received 55% and that only started in 1999. From 1995-1998 TWA essentially provided over $400 million to Icahn/PBGC and that was based on 55% of published fares.

Karabu had built up such a passenger clientel that some specific flights (especially from NYC) were 70%+ Karabu tickets, albeit at 55% fares to TWA. I have many specific city pair examples.. Some flights NYC to Europe had gone down to a yield close to four cents. JFK-PBI was down to $150 RT (net TWA) before TWA pulled out.

The direct and as much so indirect costs to TWA as regards to lower yields was well in excess of $150 million. This was cumulative every year and does not address the extreme difficulty working "yield management" into his unrestricted ticket sales.

If reading that didn't put you to sleep.. You need help.

I assure you that "Karabu" DID NOT help TWA survive!!
=========

quote:
Did You Miss This?

Here's my final multi-part question. If the IAM and ALPA didn't waive their Scope and llp's, the deal was off. Why? What is your MEC telling you guys?


You're right I did miss this, sorry.. Can I blame it on my wife?

My MEC isn't telling me anything more than you've read somewhere else. The above provisions were waived because if they weren't,, the BK court would have terminated them.

There were obvious complications that would have been carried forward WITH the ALPA/IAM provisions. It would be my guess that is why so much emphasis has been publically stated.. "This is a great merger for AA" -and- "this will be F & E".


Sorry to put everyone to sleep.. I'm sure you won't ask me to write about Karapoo again

Let's meet for some cold ones sometime and discuss this stuff like real men. (sorry if you're not) I like cold ones with women. too!

Sincerely-

Bob H


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redmango
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quote:
Originally posted by B717FLYER:
Since it didn't cost the APA anything, why do you even care?

I don't thing we're going to agree on this, so I'll speak my peace and let it go back to the boardrooms where it belongs.

You (the APA) are using our newfound job security as if you (the APA) gave it to us. Carty gave it to us, and he's getting something back for his investment. (I'm aware of the APA-AA agreement allowing the deal to close, but simply permitting something to happen isn't the same as instigating it.) You seem to want a free piece of the TWA pie that Carty bought. We see your actions as profiting at our expense.


Just a small point here, the purchase of TWA by AMR would not be worth much without the ability to code share during the integration period.

This ability to code-share is "owned" by APA in their collective bargaining agreement. Like it or not that's the fact and that is the "value" APA brings to the table. That and the pay scales they negotiated.

R


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B717FLYER
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I don't understand your point. We all know the deal couldn't have happened without APA acquiescence. Are you arguing that the APA gave up something tangible to let this deal go through?

And what's your point about the pay scales? I know, AA signs the check while the APA fills in the amount. Thank you! Is that good enough for you?


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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by AABob:
Like I said, there are guys wanting a permanent fence around your ops. Including the old TWA pay rates. The answer is out there, it ain't going to be conjured up here. I'm trying to share an opposing view.

A permanent fence? 780 a/c hands off? Old TWA pay rates? Sounds like operating a lower-cost lower-paid scope-violating subsidiary to me.
Why would ANY APA pilot worth his/her salt offer this ridiculous proposition? What if AMR operated Reno seperately? Think there is a scope violation there? You guys definately DON'T want this.No Scope, No Hope, remember?


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rampguy
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AABob, I appreciate the civil response you posted and I would like to just add my own comment re karabu. I think I see where you are going with the karabu helping TWA and I assume you mean by putting bodies in the seats. Regardless of what you meant, suffice it to say that karabu was similar to a parasite that would keep it's prey alive just long enough to milk every last drop of life from it, drop to the ground and lie in wait for the next victim. Actually, Icahn got to AA also. When he sold AA the LHR route, it included some additional gateways but these were denied. I can't remember if it was the government or a court but AA came back to renegotiate the deal with Carl. Carl got every penny of the original deal but AA got a lot less than they bargained for.
One other note on the IAM and ALPA giving up scope and other goodies in their respective contracts. I know AA said the deal was off if they didn't get their way but they knew it was going to happen either volunteerily or through the courts. I think you are wise for leaving out the seniority issue. Just like politics and religion, if you disagree on the subject, you will never get a convert. BTW, glad you found your way over to Smilin Jacks. I met him and if you get a chance to, you will see why he is called Smilin Jack.

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Sam Sevier
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quote:
Originally posted by AABob:
B717FLYER,
Ok, so agree to leave our pie alone. 777's A300's 737-800's DFW/ORD/MIA/LAX/LGA/BOS, etc. 780 A/C HANDS OFF!

Like I said, there are guys wanting a permanent fence around your ops. Including the old TWA pay rates. The answer is out there, it ain't going to be conjured up here. I'm trying to share an opposing view. I never said you had to like it. It is what it is. And If 757 does't drink me out of beer money, you're next!



I think you may have hit upon something here. Keep the operations separate. The cost of duplicate administration would be offset by the savings in labor cost. Twa pilots could fly TWA routes and equipment, AA pilots fly AA routes and equipment. Since TWA had over 100 717's on order and some 140 slots at various airports, the opportunity for junior TWA pilots to upgrade is there. And with TWA's international route authorities, Senior TWA pilots could get back to international flying. Since TWA still has 747's on their certificate, probably over 100 qualified 747 pilot, and still has approved training programs, it shouldn't be to difficult to find some 747-400's to fly STL to Tokyo or any other long haul/high density routes TWA already has authority for. With TWA's pay raises already in place,(even though they aren't as high as AA rates),the advancement opportunities separate ops would provide, and with pref-bidding, and trip add, TWA pilots could probably be happy. This would also add to the AA pilots profit sharing. The most efficient aircraft and pilots would keep profits up on routes such as STL-DFW,ORD,LGA,LAX, or JFK-CDG,MXP,MUC,FCO, and of course JFK-LAX,SFO, and could really help the Carribean ops bottom line. Of course this would all be contigent on elliminating the duplication of routes. I am calling on our MEC to look into this option. Since the AA pilots seem to want it, and no AA pilot would then be junior to a TWA pilot, maybe Mr. Carty could be convinced to keep the two airlines separate.


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aa777
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I find it interesting that since AA bought TWA. Some of the opinions here feel that they should be granted certain rights. "quality of life" seems to come up a lot. I wonder if the shoe were on the other foot how these same folks would feel if AA were to demand all these requirements. In my opinion no one at TWA is being "screwed", being "screwed" would be out on the street looking for a new job or reapplying for a job at AA. Again I congratulate your CEO for managing to retain your employment and APA for getting you pay raises as well.

fire away.


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AABob
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Bob, Sam, rampguy,and all: Great posts, i've got some q'sthat'll have to wait a few days. Gotta go fly....................Cheers!!!
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B-757-200
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Bob:While you're out doing those Salt Lake turns and Chicago layovers, along with 4-hr sits in DFW, I'll be thinking about you while I have a Mai Tai on the Beach in Waikiki.Cheers!
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rampguy
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quote:
Originally posted by aa777:
I find it interesting that since AA bought TWA. Some of the opinions here feel that they should be granted certain rights. "quality of life" seems to come up a lot. I wonder if the shoe were on the other foot how these same folks would feel if AA were to demand all these requirements. In my opinion no one at TWA is being "screwed", being "screwed" would be out on the street looking for a new job or reapplying for a job at AA. Again I congratulate your CEO for managing to retain your employment and APA for getting you pay raises as well.

fire away.


Sure glad you found interesting posts among the TWA people because nothing is interesting in your post. The couple of points you brought up are nothing but old stale rehashings from planebusiness. At least you did say "AA" bought TWA instead of "we". I really don't see where you see the TWA pilots demand all these requirements. Is asking to be treated fairly fall within those parameters? You ask the tired old question of if the shoe were on the other foot. Well for the 100th time, the shoe has been on the other foot. Now while you are congratulating Bill Compton on his retaining employees, why don't you congratulate Don Carty on his master stroke. Karabu was the only unsurmountable point when trying to get a deal with other merger candidates but Carty and company took care of that with a pen stroke. Now as TWA ADDS to AA's bottom line you can thank in kind the employees over here for providing additional revenue enabling your next raise. BTW, your definition of "screwed" is kinda screwy.


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gt66k
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AA777 The fact that that you think APA "got us pay raises" confirms most TWAA'ers opinion that there is a tremendous amount of misunderstanding concerning the acquisition of Trans World and the resulting changes to both groups of employees.The only thing I have heard as a "demand" is a "fair and Equitable" integration from TWA and a (forgive me Rosa) "go to the back of the bus" from APA. I am optimistic that a satisfactory "rightful place list" will come for both groups eventually.
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twapilot2
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quote:
Originally posted by gt66k:
AA777 The fact that that you think APA "got us pay raises" confirms most TWAA'ers opinion that there is a tremendous amount of misunderstanding concerning the acquisition of Trans World and the resulting changes to both groups of employees.The only thing I have heard as a "demand" is a "fair and Equitable" integration from TWA and a (forgive me Rosa) "go to the back of the bus" from APA. I am optimistic that a satisfactory "rightful place list" will come for both groups eventually.

I agree with you, gtk66. I have never seen any TWA employee wish to take away the seniority of any AA employee, much less demand anything. We just want to be treated fairly and with professional courtesy.

We're grateful at the opportunity to be a part of the AA team, and I think that this merger will benefit us all. With unity in our groups, the sky's the limit. That unity isn't going to happen if the TWA people are treated as nothing more than a stepping stone to higher seniority.

I, too, think that this will be worked out. I can wait as long as it takes, but for the greater good, sooner is better. It would benefit us all to see another 2,400 pilots siding with the APA when it comes time to negotiate the next contract.


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acvitale
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Wow,

A quick revisit after a few months absence and,

When I was working with JAG and the same arguments were made we were told it was impossible for TWA to ever make money and that TWA was a loser and there was no hope. Amazing how when you factor the leases alone to industry standard TWA would have been profitable.

We listened to all the arguments.

When we went to BCC, ILFC and others they were more then willing to re-negotiate the leases or sell the portfolios outright in some cases. I took flack from everyone including most notably the board host Capt Irwin and the mysterious (and often erronious) SomeCautionandModeration on PB.

Well the fact is that TWA was a gem in the rough. AMR got the crown jewels and the integration costs are not equal to what the value of immediately available pilots, planes and support personnel are worth.

The fact of the matter is that now we will really see how welcome AAboard TWA employees will be as the senority issues and fences are negotiated... Of course when that was mentioned prior to the deal being final it was blasted.

I wish all of you TWA and AMR the best. I hope you don't destroy the airline negotiating the senority. At the end of the day you are all stuck working with each other for the long term and any animosity that is generated between the two groups will only damage both sides long term.

A little fairness towards the incoming TWA LLC employees will go a long way towards the long term benefits of both groups.

Al


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TWAnr
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RESEARCH ALERT-AMR earnings view raised

May 11, 2001 11:59 AM ET

NEW YORK, May 11 (Reuters) - Goldman Sachs analyst Glenn Engel on Friday raised his outlook for 2002 profits at AMR Corp. (AMR), the parent company of American Airlines, to $4.25 per share from $3.75.

``We believe that the earnings accretion from AMR's purchase of TWA will come sooner and with greater magnitude than investors and even AMR anticipate,'' Engel said.

His estimate for 2001 earnings stayed at $3 a share.

He raised his six-month price target on AMR shares to $50 from $45.

The shares closed on Thursday at $37.45. REUTERS

Rueters Link


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AABob
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam Sevier:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AABob:
[b]B717FLYER,
Ok, so agree to leave our pie alone. 777's A300's 737-800's DFW/ORD/MIA/LAX/LGA/BOS, etc. 780 A/C HANDS OFF!

Like I said, there are guys wanting a permanent fence around your ops. Including the old TWA pay rates. The answer is out there, it ain't going to be conjured up here. I'm trying to share an opposing view. I never said you had to like it. It is what it is. And If 757 does't drink me out of beer money, you're next!



I think you may have hit upon something here. Keep the operations separate. The cost of duplicate administration would be offset by the savings in labor cost. Twa pilots could fly TWA routes and equipment, AA pilots fly AA routes and equipment. Since TWA had over 100 717's on order and some 140 slots at various airports, the opportunity for junior TWA pilots to upgrade is there. And with TWA's international route authorities, Senior TWA pilots could get back to international flying. Since TWA still has 747's on their certificate, probably over 100 qualified 747 pilot, and still has approved training programs, it shouldn't be to difficult to find some 747-400's to fly STL to Tokyo or any other long haul/high density routes TWA already has authority for. With TWA's pay raises already in place,(even though they aren't as high as AA rates),the advancement opportunities separate ops would provide, and with pref-bidding, and trip add, TWA pilots could probably be happy. This would also add to the AA pilots profit sharing. The most efficient aircraft and pilots would keep profits up on routes such as STL-DFW,ORD,LGA,LAX, or JFK-CDG,MXP,MUC,FCO, and of course JFK-LAX,SFO, and could really help the Carribean ops bottom line. Of course this would all be contigent on elliminating the duplication of routes. I am calling on our MEC to look into this option. Since the AA pilots seem to want it, and no AA pilot would then be junior to a TWA pilot, maybe Mr. Carty could be convinced to keep the two airlines separate.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Sam, if you can get it past your MEC, I'm all for it. You obviously have not read Ron Kiels March 5th letter to Terry Hayes, and the paper trail that follows it. I'm tired and cranky right now. You know, if your M&A committee takes the position alluded to on the code-a-phone for last friday, attempting to secure ADDITIONAL captains jobs for TWA pilots based on slots, and gates, I'll be FORCED to join the "Lock'em in St Lou" posse. There are lots of obstacles to clear moving forward. If you want to work for some b-scale outfit, quit and go to airtran. Captain in 3 years. Presto.


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AABob
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rampguy. Thank you for your civil replies. the "f-you, no, f-you" accomplishes nothing. I appreciate your candor.

On KARABU, my take is somewhat correct. Without the 190 million$ from carl, TWA was history. I wasn't trying to say KARABU, by selling tickets was keeping TWA alive. The rape occured years ago, and by the structure of the ticketing deal, it didn't matter to carl if TWA survived or not. He was making his money, and thats all that mattered. TWA really died when that took place. I don't mean to belittle the significance of TWA's demise. It was a great airline and because of its passing, some peoples lives will be forever changed.

On the London routes. True, AA agreed to pay 445$ million for them in december of 1990. (Plus spent another 90 million to start them). 283 TWA employees were part of the deal too. A point no one ever makes, when they spout about AA now being in posession of the route authorities. It was in fact the DOJ that disallowed the transfer of the STL, PHL, and BWI authorities, but its all history now.


quote:
One other note on the IAM and ALPA giving up scope and other goodies in their respective contracts. I know AA said the deal was off if they didn't get their way but they knew it was going to happen either volunteerily or through the courts. I think you are wise for leaving out the seniority issue. Just like politics and religion, if you disagree on the subject, you will never get a convert.

Well, maybe not wise enough. Did you know TWA pilot asset aq. protections consist of 3 hand written sentences? I'm not here to got tit for tat with anyone. Point, counterpoint yes, pissing contest, no. Exchange of factual/relevant info is good for moving forward. In fact I came here, if you'll recall to single out Bob H. in a non-Planebusiness format. In my opinion, that post I singled out did more harm than good. It gave the "AA stole/raped TWA" set ammo in their crusade. This integration has enough obstacles to over come before we can move forward. Now we have to talk a bunch of people down off the ceiling, and explain that AA is not the bad guy. Carl took everything he could, AA bought what was left, which wasn't much. Slots, gates, and route authorities. Again, no malice.

Yes, I'm having a bad day.


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rampguy
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AABob. Just a couple of points to kinda clean up here. Yes, the $190mil from Icahn did keep TWA afloat but Carl put us there in the first place but beyond that he had no choice. None. One of the great senators from Missouri passed a law and nailed him for the pension shortfall. If TWA did fail then his other companies became liable for the tab to the PBGC. So he had to make the loan. TWA on the other hand had no choice but to accept his terms ala Karabu.
Second point. When I said Icahn got to AA too on the LHR routes, what I meant was that the original price was $445mil for the whole thing. After the gov said no to STL, BAL & PHL, AA came back to renegotiate a reduced price since they felt they were only getting half of a deal. Carl said that will be $445 mil please and he got it.
Finally, no one over here at TWA thinks AA is the bad guy. On the contrary. AA is the good guy. I don't speak for everyone but most of my coworkers feel that AA is the white knight but the unions on the property are the enemy. Now I don't mean enemy in the strictest sense. But if there is any kind of decent seniority melding then I can assure you that you will find us very appreciative of the whole transaction. We are a proud lot just as AA employees are. We both have reason to be. Once the integration is over, we will all be a proud lot for the same reason.

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AABob
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here here RG. Next time I'm in Tulsa I'll track you down. I'm buying.
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