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Author Topic: Furloughs
ss278
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I just read where AA is seeking to furlough an additional 1000 pilots.

I was wondering, should this occur, would all the "furloughees" be ex-TWA? I seem to remember that somewhere between 800-1200 TWA captains were "guaranteed" to keep their jobs in the integration. Is this true?

If so how would further furloughs work? Do "nAAtive AA'ers" now take the hit once all former TWA F/O's are gone, or do once former TWA captains previously displaced to F/O status go as their integration seniority warrants?

It would seem to me that if 1000 more pilots are let go, and they are all from the LLC side,it will be damn hard to keep STL going as a hub, or LLC going as a viable concern. If AA just shuts down LLC all together, what will happen to the TWA pilots? I know (unfortunately) what will happen to the F/A's.

[ 03-26-2003, 16:35: Message edited by: ss278 ]

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L1011Ret
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I cannot answer with any certainty but seniority is seniority. Unless APA has a redo of Supp CC in negotiations, it would appear it would be largely LLC pilots up to the "staple" line where they are ratioed in and then AA and LLC pilots would be furloughed on a 8:1 ratio. As for the F/As it certainly looks as though LLC F/As would bear the brunt of all future furloughs to the point of non-existence. However, there are other factors in both cases. AA pilots have to be trained to fly LLC aircraft as they are moved to the AA certificate. That takes time. AA F/As can only fly A/C that have moved over to the AA certificate. Or they could be trained. That takes time. Additionally, F/As have to be offered leaves before any furlough. Lastly Carty has specifically said he wants to keep AA a big airline. He does not want to shrink much. But with work rules changed in negotiations and economic uncertainty, I sometimes think throwing darts is likely to produce as good a guess as any other.
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Bob H
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After the already identified Apr & May furloughed pilots leave there will be 422 more TW F/O's furloughed and from then on there will be AT LEAST 8 AA F/O's for each TW pilot furloughed.

Once the "furlough protection" is taken away from the most junior AA F/O.. ALL furloughs will be done in reverse *SYSTEM* seniority.

The protected STL/TW captain positions are based on a 30% ratio of the ORD & DFW SWB & NB captain staffing. Current ORD/DFW staffing protects approximately 132 STL/TW B767 captains and 465 MD80 captains.

There are now ~781 TW pilots ratioed/integrated into the original AA seniority list senior to AA's most junior not furloughed pilot. The most senior TW pilot is current system seniority #2500.

Bob H

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L1011Ret
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Bob H. I admit to lack of knowledge here. You say the "protected" pilots furlough protection is taken or can be taken away? There is a lot of talk about "out of seniority" furlough. Is that possible? Then there would seem to be a conflict. There is a requirement for X number of Captains in STL based on what is going on in ORD/DFW. What happens if AA decides to downsize STL and does not need the 30% of ORD/DFW?
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Bob Ritchie
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L1011,

Bob H. can and probably will answer in much greater detail. However to move the conversation along I will comment.

The Allied Pilot's Assn. Pres. has stated firmly that all furloughs of pilots will be done in reverse seniority order. The premerger AA pilots, above the staple point, have been protected from furlough. It seems certian that the furlough protection will be eliminated soon; so that AA can make the cutbacks necessary. Thus after the stapled TWA pilots are gone; furloughs will continue from the bottom up, at one TWA pilot to 8 AA pilots ratio.

If STL is reduced to the point that the minimum number of guarenteed TWA captain slots are no longer available in STL....then the minimum number of former TWA captain slots would be alloted among the other AA pilot domiciles. However, after moving to those domiciles the former TWA pilots would find themselves among the very most junior captains within their status.

In theory....STL could be closed and some 400+ former TWA captians would spread among the other AA domiciles.

If all protections for the former TWA captains are eventually lost.....then they would have to accept whatever their system seniority would allow them to hold. This is not supposed to occur. But...anything could happen, especially during a bankruptcy.

Hope this helps. My apologies to Bob H.

Bob Ritchie

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Draginitin
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I highly doubt if Carty would try and furlough out of system seniority. If he was to do that, his first priority would be to park the F-100s and furlough the crews.

However, with this latest deception by Carty to expect a further 1000 pilots to be furloughed as NOT part of the $660 million, I wouldn't put ANYTHING past this "management" team.

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Somewhere over America
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Gary Boettcher once mentioned as an aside, the possibility of an out of seniority furlough, and recently said that seniority is not a sacred cow. However, seeing as a pilot's worse fear is another pilot, seniority is the only thing we have to protect ourselves from ourselves. Furloughing out of seniority would kill any deal the American pilots are willing to accept in a vote on a TA.

While Ed White will grant relief on the July 2001 Transition Agreement that has protected many jobs, and furloughs will continue to erode the ranks until their are more SNB's out than TWA pilots, this may assuage the hard feelings some feel for the SNB's, but it will address an issue AMR has been skirting for a year and a half now. The loss of capital to pay for excess pilots was calculated to drive the corporation to the edge of the abyss. Only a truly dire situation would yield concessions that will rival the B scale AA is so hated for starting. (Even though that's not entirely true either.)

But this time, when your leadership in STL votes to try to save the company, you will have a hand in the same thing. So don't throw stones when you live in a glass house and the TA passes.

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XHNLEIC
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Aloha!...I know this post is mostly regarding Flight Crews and F/A but just an added note. I heard this evening that 25 MORE full time ATO agents in STL are being furloughed which takes seniority for full-time to 1976 (Old TWA seniority). Imagine that holding full time as an ATO agent one has to have 27 + years. This has to be a very strong indication that STL will no longer be a "Hub" in the near future. Very sad for everyone.
xhnleic

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by L1011Ret:
Bob H. I admit to lack of knowledge here. You say the "protected" pilots furlough protection is taken or can be taken away? There is a lot of talk about "out of seniority" furlough. Is that possible? Then there would seem to be a conflict. There is a requirement for X number of Captains in STL based on what is going on in ORD/DFW. What happens if AA decides to downsize STL and does not need the 30% of ORD/DFW?

1. In spite of some talk and perhaps INDIVIDUAL "wishful thinking"... IMO, THERE WILL NEVER BE AN OUT OF SENIORITY FURLOUGH.

I state that for two logical reasons.

(A) The DFR liability would be very very costly to both the union and the company.

(B) The "precedent" would be something that NO (pilot) labor union would consider.

-----

2. Bob R's comments above aren't quite correct.

Until the last TW hired pilot from 1990 can captain upgrade to the B767 AND until the last TW hired pilot in 1997 can captain upgrade to any acft; separate and specific to B767 & NB aircraft..

Regardless of *SYSTEM* seniority, Supp CC *REQUIRES* 30% of the ORD & DFW SWB & NB captain line positions to BE provided to former TWA pilots in the STL domicile.. PERIOD. (There is NO provision for AA to move/transfer those captain positions to bases outside of STL)

The confusion (for positions outside of STL) comes after "Additional Captain" positions becomes available to the TWA pilots based on a specific fleet size, operational training, etc; Specific fleet size is based on total acft for TW NB captain positions and SWB fleet size for the TW B767 captain positions.

At the present time, the *AA/LLC* fleet size is too small to provide for any "Additional TW Captain" positions. As the fleet size, total or specific to SWB (hopefully) increases, THEN the former TW pilots will have ADDITIONAL "reserved" captain positions ABOVE the 30% ORD/DFW ratio. At the companies discretion, the additional captain positions ABOVE the 30% ratio can be provided outside of the STL bases.

----------

3. The STL/TW captain positions are recalculated each month based on the current DFW/ORD SWB/NB staffing. Based on the monthly changes for DFW & ORD, the STL captain staffing is adjusted to +15. Should the limits not be observed by AA, there are specific provisions for pay protection .

----------

4. The original AA/TW seniority list integrated 1 TW pilot for each 8.117 AA pilots going senior to the most junior AA pilot hired 9 Apr, 2001.

Since many of the "integrated" TW pilots have since retired, once the "furlough protection" is lost for those AA pilots with a DOH senior to 10 April, 2001, effectively, there will be an average of MORE than 8.117 AA pilots furloughed for each TW pilot .

-----------

5. The FAA will not permit original AA pilots to be trained to the TWLLC ops cert or to operate LLC acft that are on the FAA LLC cert.

As such, original AA flight crews (includes F/A's) cannot operate the LLC aircraft until they (acft) are reconfigured to the FAA's standardization requirements and ARE also transferred to the FAA AA ops cert..

Disclaimer; The above Supp CC interpretations are summarized based on the current environment and not necessarily strict interpretations of the Supp CC language.

Bob H

Chairman APA STL/SUPP CC Education Committee

[ 03-27-2003, 11:39: Message edited by: Bob H ]

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Bob Ritchie
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Thanks Bob H.

So...is it "impossible" for AA to close the STL DOM as long as there is "any" flying in ORD and DFW?

Are there no absolute minimum numbers of guarenteed captain slots for former TWA captains?

Could AA decide to close the STL DOM? If the STL DOM were to be closed(assuming that is possible).... then is it correct to say that there would be no guarenteed captain positions anywhere for the former TWA captains?

Always trying to learn. Often made aware of misconceptions.

Thanks,

Bob Ritchie

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Ritchie:
Thanks Bob H.

So...is it "impossible" for AA to close the STL DOM as long as there is "any" flying in ORD and DFW?

Are there no absolute minimum numbers of guarenteed captain slots for former TWA captains?

Could AA decide to close the STL DOM? If the STL DOM were to be closed(assuming that is possible).... then is it correct to say that there would be no guarenteed captain positions anywhere for the former TWA captains?

Always trying to learn. Often made aware of misconceptions.

Thanks,

Bob Ritchie

Hi Bob R-

Unless AA abrogates the provisions of Supp CC, or Supp CC is modified (neither of which I expect) or through a BK petition (which is possible), they (AA) must keep 30% of the ORD/DFW staffing "based" in STL (captains).

In other words, there's no way to close the STL B767 pilot "base" until the last 1990 hired TW pilot can captain upgrade to the B767 and the last 1997 hired TW pilot has to be able to captain upgrade on any equip to close the STL "NB base".

Other than the 30% ratio of ORD/DFW.. There are no guaranteed TW captain positions *UNTIL* all TW pilots are trained to AA ops specs.

Once all TW pilots are trained to the AA ops specs.. THEN; TW pilots have "reserved system captain positions" based on total and SWB fleet size but the 30% ratio of ORD/DFW must still be *based* in STL.

In the SJ pvt section you can read my projections from several weeks ago under the thread ["Force Majeure & what it could do"].

Since I see no way AA will close the ORD & DFW base, IMO, the only option to close STL will be through a chapter 11 filing.

Bob H

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L1011Ret
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Thank you Bob H for clarifying some details. It makes a bit of sense now. I hate to say it but AA could do a move like they have done to the F/As by shrinking ORD, DFW and STL and transfer flying to other bases. That would be a bit self defeating in the long run. My bet is that if AA wants to shrink STL below the 30% they would find a way. If you look at what happened to the F/As with the overage leaves you get a glimpse of how they get around things. By contract they were to offer overages across the system. When it was pointed out to them they were not following the contract, AA said we only have to offer overages in STL. That is the subject of a grievance. Sort of like they do what they want and say Sue Me!
It all may be mute. Today it is revealed AA is thinking C-11 now rather than later.

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TWA Fan 1
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TWA used ch 11 to wipe out Karabu and make itself a worthwhile acquisition to AA. Now AMR will use ch 11 simply to wipe TWA out all together.

[Frown]

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twaokc
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"TWA used ch 11 to wipe out Karabu and make itself a worthwhile acquisition to AA. Now AMR will use ch 11 simply to wipe TWA out all together."

I am sure they will knock out all the TWA retiree benefits...

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Bob Ritchie
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Bob H.

Thanks for your information. You cleared up the confusion I had about system wide captain seats. I see now that it will come into play only once we are all trained to AA's certificate. It appears that may well happen sooner than expected.

What a wild ride huh? I would have ever imagined all this; when I sat down for my first day of training as an OZA pilot....31 years ago today!!

Hard to believe that only 3 of the pilots from my orginal class of 10 are still active. Two are known dead. One is quite ill. Another lost his physical. Four were fired during training and one quit. Even the three of us remaining have all experience "career" trauma.

Life has it's way with us. Personally thankful for my blessings.

Take care,

bob ritchie

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Somewhere over America
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Let me clarify:

Bob H,

Supplement CC requires that only pilots without any other displacement option be put in SLT. However, the Company is disregarding this rule.

1. What have you done about this infraction as the STL Supp CC Committee Chairman for Education and Compliance?

2. Since the Company can disregard the contract law it signed without any opposition from APA, then what assurance does the line pilot have for any contract provision you cite will ever be enforced?

3. Although Supplement CC is not to be negotiated during Section 6, Ed White has said it has very much been discussed. In what ways in your humble opinion gleamed through discussions with Keith Bounds has APA acquiesced on restrictions and restraints that Supplement CC offers?

4. Please answer the questions and avoid both personal attacks and emotional replies.

[ 03-27-2003, 22:12: Message edited by: Somewhere over America ]

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by Somewhere over America:

Bob H,


Please provide your identity and I will answer your specific questions on the pvt section.

Bob H

As much as my time permits, I will answer "general" questions here .

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Somewhere over America
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These are valid questions. As your prerequisite for response has been waived by you in light of the information you have already provided: either answer the questions or diminish your credibility as a valid source.
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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by Somewhere over America:
These are valid questions. As your prerequisite for response has been waived by you in light of the information you have already provided: either answer the questions or diminish your credibility as a valid source.

The questions I answered were "general" contract interpretations. Labor contracts are publicly recorded. I have always considered it my responsibility to keep private issues in house. Perhaps you should also.

The questions you specifically asked, by your own accusations, are internal union issues that do not belong on a public message board.

I did not state your questions were not valid, only that I would not reply to them on a public MB.

You are quite free to consider my input above as invalid and not credible.

Bob H

[ 03-27-2003, 23:25: Message edited by: Bob H ]

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Somewhere over America
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Since there is no such thing in discovery as a "private" message board, and since you have already provided specific and detailed discussion of contract interpretation to include your opinion on this public board; your failure to address the questions negates your credibility and demonstrates a lack of cajones on your part to be held accountable for your statements.

This then does bring in to question your representation of APA under the guise of Supplement CC Chairman for Education and Compliance when you will not answer general questions on whether assigned displacements to SLT out of seniority are or are not a violation of Supplement CC language.

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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by ss278:
I just read where AA is seeking to furlough an additional 1000 pilots.

I was wondering, should this occur, would all the "furloughees" be ex-TWA?

The number will more likely be 2000 pilots, of which 1500 will be AA. If AA goes Ch.11, then expect 3000 furloughs, with about 2600 AA. All the analysts agree AA will shed F-100s/A300s and about 19,000 employees.

My one consolation will be AA employees will start to feel what LLC employees have been going thru for 2 years. AA F/As will be next.

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B717FLYER
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quote:
Originally posted by B-757-200:
My one consolation will be AA employees will start to feel what LLC employees have been going thru for 2 years. AA F/As will be next.

It consoles you when another feels pain. Sad.
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Somewhere over America
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quote:

1. What have you done about this infraction as the STL Supp CC Committee Chairman for Education and Compliance?

Nothing.

quote:

2. Since the Company can disregard the contract law it signed without any opposition from APA, then what assurance does the line pilot have for any contract provision you cite will ever be enforced?

None.

quote:

3. Although Supplement CC is not to be negotiated during Section 6, Ed White has said it has very much been discussed. In what ways in your humble opinion gleamed through discussions with Keith Bounds has APA acquiesced on restrictions and restraints that Supplement CC offers?

Reserved Captain line positions do not have to be met in order to allow furloughs to proceed in the thousands in strict inverse order.

Thank-you

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Laertal
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob H:
(Somewhere over America,) Please provide your identity and I will answer your specific questions on the pvt section.

Bob H

Somewhere over America is just another moniker used by the same person who is also known as Super 80, Petra, Tharseo and Phantom.
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Somewhere over America
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ROTFL
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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by X TWA:
quote:
Originally posted by Bob H:
(Somewhere over America,) Please provide your identity and I will answer your specific questions on the pvt section.

Bob H

Somewhere over America is just another moniker used by the same person who is also known as Super 80, Petra, Tharseo and Phantom.
That would certainly explain the incessant anger and ignorance of some of his posts.

Bob H

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L1011Ret
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He likes to resort to name calling and humiliation in order to attack others and make them feel small and inconsequential. All of which is just projection about how he really feels about himself. A great approach to human relations. His comments about manhood would not even be taken seriously in the South Bronx.

[ 03-28-2003, 19:07: Message edited by: L1011Ret ]

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by L1011Ret:
He likes to resort to name calling and humiliation in order to attack others and make them feel small and inconsequential. All of which is just projection about how he really feels about himself. A great approach to human relations. His comments about manhood would not even be taken seriously in the South Bronx.

Presuming SOA is the same "Petra, Tharseo etc." I personally know Captain MT all too well and your assessment is 100% accurate.

Bob H

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Somewhere over America
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So much for information, just the usual smear tactics, ad hominem attacks and petty personal asides. You gentlemen certainly have carried the day in keeping with the spirit of online forums and have kept the discussion mired in the muck.
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L1011Ret
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Accoding to his/her profile, Somewhere Over America's real name is "Yo Mama."
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dragitin
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With the rest of the contract being gutted, what makes anyone think that Supp CC is so sacred?

[ 03-30-2003, 09:50: Message edited by: dragitin ]

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by dragitin:
With the rest of the contract being gutted, what makes anyone think that Supp CC is so sacred?

If I could take a stab at answering your valid question, I'd say;

The Supp CC intro and the APA Supp CC summary clearly state the intent of Supp CC was to protect as realistically possible, the careers of the AA pilots during any unexpected downturn and try not to have that "protection" be at the expense of the TWA pilots.

Since by the end of this year and more likely by this summer.. 100% of ALL TW F/O's will be furloughed and over 60% of the TWA Captain "Positions" will be gone.. Supp CC has pretty well "gutted" the TWA pilot list without significant changes.

The above is an informational opinion and in no way meant to incur responsibility, equitable or fairness.

Respectfully-

Bob H

[ 03-30-2003, 10:46: Message edited by: Bob H ]

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Somewhere over America
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dragitin,

There is nothing sacred about Supplement CC. It has been violated again and again by AMR and is being violated now. So far, neither APA nor the STL APA Compliance and Education Chairman (Bob H) have done anything constructive to enforce the contract language.

While there is no news in the emerging TA of changes to Supplement CC, we don't have the contract language to ascertain if there are any changes. Supplement CC is not supposed to be changed during Section 6 negotiations. So I would not expect any changes, but if that is violated, don't expect any challenge to it.

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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by Somewhere over America:
There is nothing sacred about Supplement CC. It has been violated again and again by AMR and is being violated now.

While there is no news in the emerging TA of changes to Supplement CC, we don't have the contract language to ascertain if there are any changes. So I would not expect any changes, but if that is violated, don't expect any challenge to it.

Mark, everything is fair game in chapter 11; the judge and a creditor's committee will preside over AA, and APA won't have any say whatsoever.

Expect major cuts in work rules, benefits and wages; oh, and also furloughs.

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dragitin
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You forgot pensions. That's what Don is really after.
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Don Capt Skypig Foldy
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career expectations ch 11 and 7. I guess furloughfodder and seatgrab aren't relevant anymore. boo-hoo.
Posts: 1222 | From: "behind the cyclic, below the clouds"  |  IP: Logged
Bewildered
Post Captain
Member # 1294

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I disagree. Being known as the CEO that shorted folks on their pensions is not a legacy that Carty wants.

He is concerned about his legacy whereas Crandall wished his legacy to be "the guy that shaped the industry."

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Draginitin
Post Captain
Member # 2324

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After blowing a over a billion dollars on an airline and capacity that wasn't needed, Don needs to pick every pocket he can.

Legacy? Please.

Screw it. After seeing that TA, I'll take my chances with the judge.

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Bob Bayless
Post Captain
Member # 745

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Didn't someone once insist that all this was a ploy by the company used for contract negotiations with the pilots? Boy, that surely makes me feel better knowing that.
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