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Author
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Topic: AA Adding Flights Nov 1
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
From an AMR Corp. press release dated 07/30/03:
AA will add seven destinations in and out of its Chicago O'Hare hub effective Nov 1, 2003 (Bloomington, IL; Sioux Falls, SD; Lincoln, NE; Little Rock, AR; Moline, IL; Sprignfield, MO; Wichita, KS).
The press release also announced additional destinations in and out of Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, and San Juan.
The press release went on to specify (bolded type mine):
"American’s November schedule will allow it to offer additional flights on key routes even as the airline reduces total system wide flights to accommodate a smaller fleet. Total system wide American Airlines jet departures will decrease by about 8 percent in November when compared to July. However, American’s mainline jet service will increase by 27 daily departures from Dallas/Fort Worth and by 19 from Chicago O’Hare. From Miami, American mainline jet departures will increase by seven daily flights.
Earlier this month, American announced that St. Louis would become a smaller hub, providing local travelers with an optimal schedule, tailored to actual demand."
This shifting of flight volume away from STL and toward DFW and ORD again demonstrates that AA, with its two mid-continental hubs, was ill-suited to manage STL which would inevitably compete with DFW and ORD.
I also noticed that AMR updated its "History" link and found the following paragraph:
"In January 2001, American's first aircraft featuring bigger overhead storage bins took to the skies. Also, American announced that it had agreed to purchase substantially all the assets of Trans World Airlines, Inc."
Notice that the installation of larger storage bins is mentioned first and that the acquisition of TWA is treated almost as an afterthought.
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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LATREAL
Post Captain
Member # 918
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posted
Well it was thought of after United tried to dwarf AA. I loved it when AA was the 2nd largest and profitable.
[ 07-31-2003, 11:20: Message edited by: LATREAL ]
Posts: 67 | From: Washington, DC
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donuway
Post Captain
Member # 803
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posted
Slowly but surely, the gaps may be filled in STL,
November 1, Frontier is returning to STL with flights to Denver.
Posts: 414 | From: St. Louis, Mo
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Bewildered
Post Captain
Member # 1294
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posted
The little guys will shy away from STL until big bad AA is gone. They will be concerned that AA will stuff them on their flights.
That will make it harder for unemployed workers to get jobs.
Posts: 143 | From: Miami
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nyc6035
Post Captain
Member # 423
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posted
I read a post over on USaviation that suggested AA would be down to 18 gates come 11/1...10 for Eagle, 8 for mainline. The poster wasn't someone with a lot of post history so I'm not sure of the accuracy of the statement.
Can anyone confirm this?
Posts: 268 | From: Chappaqua, NY
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smilinjack
The Big Boss
Member # 7
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posted
Mainline will have only eight gates.....
Jack
Posts: 725 | From: Rancho Mirage, Ca.
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nyc6035
Post Captain
Member # 423
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posted
Thanks Jack.
8 gates. That's incredible. I guess they can run the entire operation out of the B concourse and the first few gates in C.
Man. I remember days not that long ago when the end of the C consourse was loaded up with 747s and 767s.
How times have changed. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 268 | From: Chappaqua, NY
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
In the meantime, AA is aggressively expanding at both DFW and ORD, espcially the latter, where AE is experiencing a huge increase in volume.
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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TWAnr
Post Captain
Member # 166
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by nyc6035:
8 gates. That's incredible. I guess they can run the entire operation out of the B concourse and the first few gates in C.
From what I have been told, by one who is definitely in the know, the eighteen gates are solely for the use of AA and AE; not for American Connection. AX will remain at the B concourse and AA and AE will operate from the C concourse.
It looks as if I have taken my last flight through STL for the foreseeable future.
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MrMarky
Post Captain
Member # 635
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posted
Does that mean that STL is about to have 30 something empty gates?
Posts: 434 | From: Concourse C
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gambit3131
Post Captain
Member # 261
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrMarky:
Does that mean that STL is about to have 30 something empty gates?
Mainline is going down from 35 to 8 gates.
Posts: 176 | From: Fort Worth, TX
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Jeff I.
Post Captain
Member # 2334
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by gambit3131:
quote:
Originally posted by MrMarky:
Does that mean that STL is about to have 30 something empty gates?
Mainline is going down from 35 to 8 gates.
You know .... after the TWA livery disappeared from the skies, many in STL would say that no major carrier was present at Lambert anyway. Those faceless aluminum tubes that seemed to melt into the clouds above Lambert were hardly worthy of the effort to tilt ones head upward.
Good riddance! Let's instead worry about getting as many TWA employees back to work in some form or another.
Jeff I.
Posts: 482 | From: New York
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donuway
Post Captain
Member # 803
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posted
This has been going on for quite some time, if my casual observation has been right. The AAdvantage newsletters have been showing tricklings of service added to the other hubs,,,and nothing out of STL for several quarters now.
Before this was officially announced, I noticed more and more of the flights listed were going through ORD or DFW for the first picks. If you are flying from a city like Springfield MO. to Moline, Il..It just kinda would suck having to go through ORD. A lot of the old OZ routes, or cities out of STL, have bit the dust. I always thought that TWA did very well on these routes, learning from the Ozark people. Too bad AA couldn't see fit to capitalize on this business through STL. I wonder how it will work, shifting it through ORD and DFW?
Jeff, you are right. The I-70 ride from the airport to downtown, or vica versa, gave one the impression that we were an important bustling hub. It hasn't been that way for some time.
Marky, somewhere you made a comment about reconstituting the assets. I didn't know if that was something that has ever happened if something was found to be amiss in a "merger". If that was a concern, it may explain the rapid, but costly I'm sure, dismantling of TWA when AA was losing its butt. Outta sight, outta mind.
Don
Posts: 414 | From: St. Louis, Mo
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Drifter
Post Captain
Member # 1613
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TWAnr:
quote:
Originally posted by nyc6035:
8 gates. That's incredible. I guess they can run the entire operation out of the B concourse and the first few gates in C.
From what I have been told, by one who is definitely in the know, the eighteen gates are solely for the use of AA and AE; not for American Connection. AX will remain at the B concourse and AA and AE will operate from the C concourse.
It looks as if I have taken my last flight through STL for the foreseeable future.
Whoever it is you believe to be "in the know", lose 'em, cause they don't. AE doesn't even exist in STL, at least not yet. AX operates as Trans States in the B concourse, and Chautauqua operates on the D concourse. On Nov. 1st, both AX carriers will move to the C concourse.
Posts: 73 | From: STL, for now
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TWAnr
Post Captain
Member # 166
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drifter:
Whoever it is you believe to be "in the know", lose 'em, cause they don't. AE doesn't even exist in STL, at least not yet. AX operates as Trans States in the B concourse, and Chautauqua operates on the D concourse. On Nov. 1st, both AX carriers will move to the C concourse.
Drifter,
My source is exceptionally reliable, but I may have misinterpreted some the information which I was provided.
Some AX flights will definitely continue to operate from the B concourse. I don't believe that 150 some odd commuter flights a day can operate from only the 10 gates reserved for those flights on the C concourse, but I could be wrong on that account.
Further, I suggest that you check on Sabre; Eagle is most definitely coming to STL come November 1, with at least three daily flights to LGA, two to BOS and one to MSY, and that is just the beginning.
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Jeff I.
Post Captain
Member # 2334
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posted
Eagle to LGA from STL is still mind-boggling to me. Geez ..... I wonder what the plans are for the Admirals Club at Lambert?
Jeff I.
Posts: 482 | From: New York
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nyc6035
Post Captain
Member # 423
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posted
Jeff,
I believe I read that the AC will remain open in STL. I can't imagine ERJs LGA-STL. But then again if you're not connecting through STL, just how many O&D pax are there in that market?
I know Mastercard has some business traffic between these two cities, but I'm not sure if there are alot of other companies that need to move folks between these two cities.
Mike
Posts: 268 | From: Chappaqua, NY
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donuway
Post Captain
Member # 803
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff I.:
Eagle to LGA from STL is still mind-boggling to me. Geez ..... I wonder what the plans are for the Admirals Club at Lambert?
Jeff I.
Jeff,
I wondered about the club also. There still should be enough business to warrant a club, but such a big one?
STL from Boston is even worse than LGA. A few years ago we were returning back from a vacation there and had to take a Northern route,,and it seemed to take forever.
Don
Posts: 414 | From: St. Louis, Mo
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Jeff I.
Post Captain
Member # 2334
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posted
Mike -
You're right. The problem lies in still thinking of STL as a hub. It soon won't be and, quite frankly, I'll be very surprised if two years out from 11/01/2003 that the AE and mainline presence is not diminished considerably from what AA has announced for their current plan. Further, I guess outside of nostalgic reasons, whether or not the Admirals Club remains open in STL is probably not an issue anyway for those of us non-residents. The prospects are slim for connecting through STL in any of my normal flying patterns come 11/01. Actually ..... over the past 18 months I found myself getting through their less and less because of frequency, convenience and fleet issues.
Jeff I.
Posts: 482 | From: New York
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Kenneth
Post Captain
Member # 259
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posted
I'm still cringing at the thought of PHL-STL (which I travel monthly) on an ERJ.
Any chance of talking AA into selling off LLC for $250M now that they've withdrawn their plans for a new debt offering? Guess not
Ken
Posts: 160 | From: Philadelphia, PA
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nyc6035
Post Captain
Member # 423
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posted
Ken,
I'm sure if you had $250MM and were willing to purchase the assets they'd return your call.
The reason the $250MM deal is off is because one of the Big Three Rating Agencies provided a CCC rating to the deal...not withstanding anything that they may have said in a press release out of Dallas.
Mike
[ 08-06-2003, 13:01: Message edited by: nyc6035 ]
Posts: 268 | From: Chappaqua, NY
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
You've got to love an almost three-hour flight on an ERJ, a plane you can't even stand up in. How about that "A" seat that has no overhead bin?
At least all of us who've been grumbling about the lack of upgrades on AA won't have to worry about that anymore...
[ 08-06-2003, 13:30: Message edited by: TWA Fan 1 ]
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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Jeff I.
Post Captain
Member # 2334
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posted
TWA Fan 1 -
Right. And it further reduces incentive to maintain card status. I've got lifetime gold and am a few hundred thousand miles from lifetime platinum in Aadvantage but ..... I'm not sure it means much of anything these days. Our friend LP .... who probably would have transferred over with lifetime executive platinum if they had such a thing .... doesn't seem to be flying AA much at all .... even with his permanent platinum status.
Don -
As to the Admirals Club ..... you're right about the size. For only 8 mainline gates, that wonderful former Ambassadors Club does seem a bit much.
Jeff I.
Posts: 482 | From: New York
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L1011Ret
Post Captain
Member # 1792
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posted
I am of the opinion that adding LBJs (Little Bitty Jets) to the STL schedule to such places as LGA is part experiment with little risk to AA. The operators are taking most of the risk. We'll see how it turns out. I think Delta made a smart move adding one to JFK for International flights.
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Cleared Direct
Junior Poster
Member # 1620
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TWAnr:
Further, I suggest that you check on Sabre; Eagle is most definitely coming to STL come November 1, with at least three daily flights to LGA, two to BOS and one to MSY, and that is just the beginning.
You might want to check SABRE yourself. The BOS and MSY flights are American Connection and the LGA flights are American Eagle. I am an Eagle pilot and I to believe that some of these cities should not have 50 seat small jets on them. These are all markets that should be mainline, but the average customer won't know the type of aircraft until they are already boarding.
AMR is trying to supplement mainline cities with small jets to keep frequency during the lower booking times in the day. These aircraft are just as fast as their mainline counterpart, but the fuselage of the 50 seat jets are probably too small for these long routes. We also just started B-O-B (Buy on Board) food service on our current long flights. $7.00 for breakfast and $10.00 for lunch and dinner.
AMR could have easily have done these off time mainline routes with the 717. It is my opinion that this would be much more acceptable to our customers while still saving costs for AMR. The only other reasonable choice would possibly be the wide body small jets (the new E jets EMB-170/190) for some of these off peak long routes. Instead of getting their business plan together and order some of these new competitive small jets, they sit while the competition orders away.
The only way AMR stays in business is that the birth rate exceeds the amount of people they piss off every day.
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nyc6035
Post Captain
Member # 423
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cleared Direct:
The only way AMR stays in business is that the birth rate exceeds the amount of people they piss off every day.
I've gotta write that one down...truer words were never spoken.
Posts: 268 | From: Chappaqua, NY
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by nyc6035:
quote:
Originally posted by Cleared Direct:
The only way AMR stays in business is that the birth rate exceeds the amount of people they piss off every day.
I've gotta write that one down...truer words were never spoken.
True enough, then again, maybe it's one of the reasons they've lost over $6 billion in under two years.
I personally think a fair number of business travelers were already fairly disenchanted with AA before the current crisis.
When the airline aggressively took the lead in cutting the services provided while maintaining an average price far in excess of the low-cost carriers (especially for a last-minute ticket purchase), it wasn't hard for businesses to send their people on JetBlue and Southwest.
Jeff I:
While you know I'm no big fan of AA, I have to say that the real crisis is for folks like Donuway and the other frequent fliers based in STL.
For NYC residents like yourself, LP, and others, AA is still has a lot of volume out of the NYC area.
Personally, I wish AA had better frequent flier benefits and had opted to adopt some of the great TWA customer service traditions...
Now, if you're an AA frequent flier and you specifically want to fly out of NYC on LLC routes, I guess you'll be logging a lot of time on an ERJ out of LGA.
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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TWAnr
Post Captain
Member # 166
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cleared Direct:
You might want to check SABRE yourself. The BOS and MSY flights are American Connection and the LGA flights are American Eagle.
That would be hard to do, as my wife has been furloughed and no longer has Sabre access.
My post was based upon the tentative STL schedule which was released to the STL based pilots by AMR at the time that the STL downsizing was announced. I will take you at your word that AX will operate the RJ segments between STL and BOS and MSY.
However, that was not the main point of my post. Even according to you, Eagle is coming to STL.
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Kenneth
Post Captain
Member # 259
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posted
One more flight added ... does anyone remember this one? ...
Press release today that AA is starting service from LAX to San Juan in December.
This was a route that TWA had launched (in early 2000? my memory is fuzzy) - I remember discussions back then about whether the route was profitable, I believe there was a subsidy or guarantee when they got started.
Posts: 160 | From: Philadelphia, PA
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B-757-200
Post Captain
Member # 430
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posted
Because the Puerto Rican government hated AA and their monopoly out of SJU, so they wanted more competition with better fares---which TWA provided.
Posts: 1278 | From: Los Angeles,Ca,USA
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Jim Urie
Post Captain
Member # 1305
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posted
Ditto to B-757-200 and his comment. In addition to the government of Puerto Rico I think it is safe to say that the traveling public of Puerto Rico as well as the other island nations in that part of the Caribbean welcomed an alternative to AA. LAX-SJU, LAX-DCA, LAX-KOA, along with additional non stops to JFK were the begining of the Los Angeles focus city. It is really sad that the plan never had a chance to come to fruition. Los Angeles, SoCal like NYC had a huge TWA history with many potential TWA passengers.
Posts: 29 | From: Northridge, Ca.
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captoza
Post Captain
Member # 88
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posted
The gate leases with AMR in STL expire sometime in 2005. Just some FYI.
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Bewildered
Post Captain
Member # 1294
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posted
Puerto Rico's motto "is anyone but AA."
It appears that AA is their usual self in bullying local government.
They were thrilled to get TWA as an option and are thrilled to have Spirit and JetBlue down there now. Again " anyone but AA."
Posts: 143 | From: Miami
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FIDS man
Junior Poster
Member # 2496
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posted
How bad can it get for STL FFB holders. Just this Wednesday the 6th of August. STL to ORD, 0900 flight time. Waking up way to early for flight, (Parking, waiting, security, etc.).
Finally at 10:13, flight attendant ask "what can I get you."
I ask for a Coke. RESPONSE, "sorry we don't serve sodas on this short flight anymore." They did serve coffee, juice and water though.
Could someone please verify this. I just hope this was a one time incident.
[ 08-08-2003, 22:30: Message edited by: FIDS man ]
Posts: 2 | From: STL
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Glasspilot
Post Captain
Member # 390
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by my_cat:
Press release today that AA is starting service from LAX to San Juan in December.
Ya, I worked that one myself on IOE when I was checking out in Dec. 2000. My next IOE trip was LAX-KOA-LAX 3 days later. Those days are LONG gone. Now it's layovers in Des Moines.
Glass
Posts: 263 | From: Outer Banks, NC
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Kirkpatrick
Post Captain
Member # 652
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by FIDS man:
I ask for a Coke. RESPONSE, "sorry we don't serve sodas on this short flight anymore." They did serve coffee, juice and water though.
Could someone please verify this.
True. On short early morning flights juice, coffee and water is the norm. That change came a few months ago.
MK
Posts: 192 | From: Massapequa (Long Island) NY
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Bewildered
Post Captain
Member # 1294
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posted
Have to laugh. Today's young flight attendants complain about doing a beverage service on these trips. The senior gang served hot meals without single serve carts, served multiple services, etc.
When the FA's complain, the Company looks at withdrawing service. Ergo saving money.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
[ 08-10-2003, 10:42: Message edited by: Bewildered ]
Posts: 143 | From: Miami
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donuway
Post Captain
Member # 803
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posted
When I was flying more often, a morning STL-ORD trip was one I did about 5-6 times a year. Those FAs had to hustle to get beverage service to us on that flight. A good deal of turbulence and we would miss out on it. More than once on the return, the FAs were our heros as they stuck us out "in the field" with no AC while the a summer summer storm between STL and ORD held us up. They would convince the Captain that we needed bevs while we waited in a muggy cabin.
My wife did Raliegh-Duram--STL a while back in the AM. You don't get much more on a flight that lasts 3 times as long.
Don
Posts: 414 | From: St. Louis, Mo
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LATREAL
Post Captain
Member # 918
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bewildered:
Have to laugh. Today's young flight attendants complain about doing a beverage service on these trips. The senior gang served hot meals without single serve carts, served multiple services, etc.
When the FA's complain, the Company looks at withdrawing service. Ergo saving money.
So all it takes is for the crew to complain and service is removed huh? You don't even really believe that do you? That post was for effect, right?
Posts: 67 | From: Washington, DC
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B-757-200
Post Captain
Member # 430
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posted
Latreal,
I think the point they're trying to make is that if junior, displaced AA F/As DON'T want to serve their PAYING passengers a soda on a 40-minute STL-ORD trip, there are 4300 former STL-based F/As who will be GLAD to do the job if recalled.
How is your wife holding out?
Posts: 1278 | From: Los Angeles,Ca,USA
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LATREAL
Post Captain
Member # 918
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by B-757-200:
Latreal,
I think the point they're trying to make is that if junior, displaced AA F/As DON'T want to serve their PAYING passengers a soda on a 40-minute STL-ORD trip, there are 4300 former STL-based F/As who will be GLAD to do the job if recalled.
How is your wife holding out?
Yeah, I kinda figured that was the point he/she was trying to make but he/she did say that the flight attendant said, "sorry" not, "i don't want to".
Wife isn't furloughed yet, if there is another "reduction" she will be. (i think)
Posts: 67 | From: Washington, DC
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Bewildered
Post Captain
Member # 1294
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posted
B-757-200
Post Captain Member # 430
posted 08-11-2003 11:10
--------------------------------------------------
Latreal,
I think the point they're trying to make is that if junior, displaced AA F/As DON'T want to serve their PAYING passengers a soda on a 40-minute STL-ORD trip, there are 4300 former STL-based F/As who will be GLAD to do the job if recalled.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
B-757-200 you got it.
I still think that the TWA FAs gave superior service.
[ 08-11-2003, 12:42: Message edited by: Bewildered ]
Posts: 143 | From: Miami
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aa777
Post Captain
Member # 639
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by FIDS man:
How bad can it get for STL FFB holders. Just this Wednesday the 6th of August. STL to ORD, 0900 flight time. Waking up way to early for flight, (Parking, waiting, security, etc.).
Finally at 10:13, flight attendant ask "what can I get you."
I ask for a Coke. RESPONSE, "sorry we don't serve sodas on this short flight anymore." They did serve coffee, juice and water though.
Could someone please verify this. I just hope this was a one time incident.
With all the cut backs your lucky that you even were offered a juice. Some markets nothing is offered. ie MIA-TPA MIA-MCO and lots of other short hops. Its not that the flight attendants don't want to offer a beverage to you, but there is really nothing on board the a/c. As far as TW flight attendants go I'm sure you had some great people. AA does too!
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Kenneth
Post Captain
Member # 259
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posted
I just got back from a weekend trip Fri to Sun ... on my 2nd leg (out of ORD) it was a "no-service" Eagle flight (I thought it was strange they loaded up the galley with soda before we took off, but nothing was served). I didn't know it would be a non-service, but on the return trip I remembered and grabbed a water beforehand.
Ken
Posts: 160 | From: Philadelphia, PA
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
The cutting back on service on AA is one of the main reasons that I'm flying a lot more Continental than I used to.
On AA I have to buy a plastic meal for $10 or a plastic breakfast for $7. On Continental it's free (but also plastic, of course--you can't have everything).
On a short flight AA won't even serve me a cup of water, Continental has an appropriate light service, including sodas, drinks, coffee, tea and light snacks (pretzels and peanuts). All free.
On flights with movies, Continental lets me watch the movie for free or offers one of their headsets for $5 which I can then keep and reuse. On AA I have to shell out $5 to rent the headset each time.
On Continental I can codeshare with Northwest and Delta, use their airport lounges and accumulate and redeem miles on any of these airlines, which makes a substantial network.
I can use my American Express membership miles to redeem Continental frequent flier tickets (AA doesn't belong to Amex Membership Miles).
Not to mention free automatic upgrades on any Continental fare basis, which of course AA doesn't have either.
Oh, and by the way, Continental posted a profit in the 2nd qtr.
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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AAflyingbrian67
Post Captain
Member # 2419
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posted
TWA FAN 1-
Headsets on AA are two dollars and they are yours to keep. Not five like you said. It is not the f/as fault what the company decided to serve. If there are sodas to serve then we serve them. If there is a hot meal catered then we serve that. Crew members do not make the decisions on what is served management does.
Posts: 48 | From: Miami
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
I never said any of this was the fault of the f/a's. As far as I'm concerned, the entire mess at AA is entirely the fault of management which only knows how to make money by cutting costs and not by adding value. In today's competitive marketplace, and when the consumer has a real choice, that's going to mean lost business.
Personally, I think a lot of business travelers have looked at AA's price structure vs. the level of service now being provided and have made an easy decision to defect to cheaper carriers like JetBlue or Southwest, or companies like COL that still provide full service.
And as far as the headsets on AA, I stand corrected, it was my mistake. In fact, therefore, headsets are more expensive on COL.
[ 08-11-2003, 20:00: Message edited by: TWA Fan 1 ]
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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aa777
Post Captain
Member # 639
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TWA Fan 1:
On AA I have to buy a plastic meal for $10 or a plastic breakfast for $7. On Continental it's free (but also plastic, of course--you can't have everything).
I think you have your airlines mixed up again. AA doesn't sell meals.
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
[ 08-11-2003, 22:36: Message edited by: TWA Fan 1 ]
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TWA Fan 1:
aa777: Posted by Cleared Direct on 08-06-2003:
quote:
Originally posted by Cleared Direct:
...We also just started B-O-B (Buy on Board) food service on our current long flights. $7.00 for breakfast and $10.00 for lunch and dinner...
Currently applies only to AE
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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