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Author Topic: Remember The Year Before The Merger?
extwacaptain
Prop Wash
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Remember The Year Before The Merger?

There was a completely out of control bashing of TWA’s management by a “very few” employees, exercising their “freedom of speech” on a popular message board at the time.

What effect, if any, did this have on the company’s ability to survive?

I do not know the answer to that question, but not knowing answers does not slow most of us down, certainly not me.

Let me give you the opinion of an aviation expert (and a friend) regarding the image created by the daily barrage of criticism of our Captain Compton, TWA’s management team, the outlook for the survival of our company, the stock and you name it.

In his opinion, comments by a few employees created a concern about all of our employees. Everyone on this board is aware that there has never been a more dedicated and loyal group of employees, anywhere, ever. But the comments of a few were very effective and, in my mind, very DESTRUCTIVE to our company.

As a result of some of this PUBLIC company criticism by employees, I have been told, and believe it true, the lease rate for our airplanes was increased.

Many have expressed the belief that TWA ALMOST made it. Those lease rates could very well have been the straw that broke the camel’s back.


Randy Kramer

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Bob H
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Captain Randy-

It's always nice to see your comments.

Not many of you had any access to the old TWAcrew.com web site pilot MB. (It was TWA's pvt MB for TW pilots/flight ops).

Most of the (TW pilot) individuals you now see/read doing most of the AA bashing and expressing their great support of TWA.. Were the exact same individuals who never missed the opportunity to bad mouth TWA or/and TW management EVERY DAY on the old TWA MB.

Prior to AA's acquisition AND 9/11.. Nearly 1 of 4 TW pilots had applications/resumes out with OTHER airlines and openly expressed their HUGE desire to get out of this place (meaning TWA).

I hope you and your lovely much younger bride are doing well and missed all of the smoke last month.

Very Respectfully-

Bob H

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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob H:
Most of the (TW pilot) individuals you now see/read doing most of the AA bashing and expressing their great support of TWA.. Were the exact same individuals who never missed the opportunity to bad mouth TWA or/and TW management EVERY DAY on the old TWA MB.

Prior to AA's acquisition AND 9/11.. Nearly 1 of 4 TW pilots had applications/resumes out with OTHER airlines and openly expressed their HUGE desire to get out of this place (meaning TWA).

Bob, I am an AA/APA-basher, but rarely posted on that TWAcrew.com site.

About resumes, yes, I had apps out when I was at TWA, but I'm working at an airline now, and STILL have apps out. After 7 airlines, 5 furloughs and 1 unfair seniority integration, you learn to ALWAYS keep your options open. At my first airline, a charter company, while age 27 and flying as F/O on a DC-10 on international routes with 12 young, gorgeous F/As every trip, I got a little too comfortable. The company started to downsize and next thing you know, was bankrupt and shut down. An old Captain from that charter gave me some advice which I always remembered---"You never, EVER stop sending out resumes". If I was at DL, NW or UA, I'd still send them out or apply online elsewhere occasionally, just in case.

You never know what might happen. When the AA/TWA seniority list gets re-done after the lawsuit concludes, then some very junior AA pilots might be furloughed, so they should be sending out resumes as well.

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Captain Ed
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I have seen a steady decline in the quality of TWA Management, beginning with Tillinghast, and culminating with Ichan.

Self interest decisions in place of the interests of the company.

That will kill any corporation.

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Irish
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Icahn, Ed! Icahn! Chan was a Chinese detective.
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Skyking
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Paul,

Here was this guy who was changing our lives forever, and probably 40% could not even spell his name correctly.

Icon, Ikon, Ichan, Icahn, Iconn, Carl, Karl, or Karol... ?

So what if Capt. Toaner didn't get it right!

Ward... that's Miles not Myles!

[ 11-23-2003, 20:18: Message edited by: Skyking ]

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reasonableman
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About resumes, yes, I had apps out when I was at TWA, but I'm working at an airline now, and STILL have apps out. After 7 airlines, 5 furloughs and 1 unfair seniority integration, you learn to ALWAYS keep your options open. At my first airline, a charter company, while age 27 and flying as F/O on a DC-10 on international routes with 12 young, gorgeous F/As every trip, I got a little too comfortable. The company started to downsize and next thing you know, was bankrupt and shut down. An old Captain from that charter gave me some advice which I always remembered---"You never, EVER stop sending out resumes". If I was at DL, NW or UA, I'd still send them out or apply online elsewhere occasionally, just in case.

You never know what might happen. When the AA/TWA seniority list gets re-done after the lawsuit concludes, then some very junior AA pilots might be furloughed, so they should be sending out resumes as well. [/QB][/QUOTE]


Another classic.

Amazingly, a few people here tend to believe that despite the fact that AMR was forced to lay off thousands of its own peple as a result of the economy and 9/11, somehow the exalted TWA members should be given not just a chance to keep their job when they had no chance without AMR, but preferential treatment above the genuine employees of AA. I have trouble grasping that concept. Had the events of 9/11 never happened but the buyout had we would all still have jobs. No 9/11, no buyout, NO TWA and AA employees would still have their jobs now for the most part. That would be ideal. TWA has been protected inside the STL fence so much that despite the fact I barely hold a decent FO bid there are many TWA pilots junior to me holding Captain slots in STL.

What magic power is going to side with you on this one when your assets were bought out of bankruptcy and your unions were required to waive seniority rights as a pre requisite to the buyout?

You could have been on the street 2 years ago. Your sense of entitlement is befuddling.
BTW I never send out any resumes.

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MD80Capt
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Just a quick question......I have not posted here before, but I notice a certain constant through all the different postings, both here and on the other site, and that is, Bob H. is always defending AA and the APA, it seems any time there is a chance to rationalize Supp CC he is right there doing just that.

Am I wrong in this observation???

Chris

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L1011Ret
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Your observations are correct. A lot of pilots are angry with his stance.
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TW1
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I know Bob isn't any "happier" about cc. than anyone else. Reality is that is where we are and until something is changed, Bob attempts to understand and inform people about supp.cc.
Unfortunately He takes alot of abuse for doing so.

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by MD80Capt:
Just a quick question......I have not posted here before, but I notice a certain constant through all the different postings, both here and on the other site, and that is, Bob H. is always defending AA and the APA, it seems any time there is a chance to rationalize Supp CC he is right there doing just that.

Am I wrong in this observation???

Chris

Chris-

Since you asked a "quick question" (about me) I'll try to give you a "quick answer".

Unlike you, I have posted A LOT of messages here [Smile] .

I'll also note your SJ's contribution and it's intent seems a little odd being added nearly 3 months after my comment to Randy's original message in this thread.

I'll start right out by READILY admitting there are a number of TW pilots who have not put me on their Christmas card list! You may find that many/most of those individuals share just a couple of things in common..

1. They are non-members of the APA (like you).

2. They were/are incensed that they were stapled below the AA pilots with DOH's senior to 4/10/01 (since you are one of those pilots stapled below 4/10/01, it would only be a guess that you are incensed by it).

3. They are currently furloughed (like you).

4. During the AA/TW integration talks (Jan 2001 through Nov 2001) they were unwilling to accept the weaker BARGAINING position of the TW pilots and were unwilling to accept the "BEST" deal offered by the APA & AA to the TW pilots (since I don't remember ever talking to you, I have no idea where you stood on the integration issue).

---------

Now that that part is cleared up..

For the record-

Over the past several years I was frequently asked by the ALPA MEC & LEC to provide analysis to the TW/ALPA merger committee and input through the ALPA/Communication Committee.

After Supp CC was agreed to by both the APA BOD and AA management in Nov 2001 and a ruling by the NMB determining single carrier status.. I was ASKED to be chairman of the STL/APA Supp CC *EDUCATION* committee. It was apparently believed by those that asked, that I was as knowledgeable as any other TW pilot regarding the implications of Supp CC impacting the TW pilots. Over the past two years, I have readily been willing to give up this position to ANY other pilot who was willing and able to provide information and understanding to the pilots regarding Supp CC. No one else seems interested.. HOW ABOUT YOU??

Apparently you (and the other TW pilots you note) don't like it when I provide details of Supp CC that not only dispute the nonsense they want others to believe but there are actually longer term benefits to Supp CC that some pilots don't seem interested in.. YES, I KNOW, you are now furloughed and thus NO Supp CC benefits.. YES, I know, if you had gotten the AA seniority number you felt you deserved, you would not be furloughed now and some native AA pilot would be on the street and you (and other) TW pilots would all be flying as Captains like you/they were.

Well.. In case no one noticed.. The TW pilots did NOT get the seniority numbers they believed they should get. Because of that and the shrinking airline, the majority of TW pilots and 100% of the TW FA's and many thousands of other former TW employees are not receiving AA pay checks.. IT SUCKS!! I WISH IT COULD BE DIFFERENT. I'D LOVE TO HAVE MY 30 YEAR SENIORITY AT AA AND BE IN THE TOP 250 OF THE COMBINED LIST!! DIDN'T HAPPEN!! The judge determined it's NOT going to happen and, like it or not, IMO, the appeal will also fail.. SO.. NOW life must go on albeit FAR different from how we would like it to be.

In all likelihood, anyone whom has ever met me or read much of what I've written, has at one point or another not agreed with me or downright didn't like me.. I've never tried to win a popularity contest. I have made every attempt to answer thousands of questions with complete honesty even though it was not what I knew the other person wanted to hear.

If you can find ANY statements I've made that, as you claim above, are rationalized and nothing more than an obscured "defense" of AA, APA, Supp CC or for that matter TWA or ALPA.. Please bring them to my attention and provided you can provide the support to dispute what I wrote, I will readily admit my error(s).

Until then, I guess you'll just have to keep me off your holiday card list.

As usual, not a very "quick" answer for your "quick" but obvious question and intent.

Bob H

[ 02-04-2004, 16:08: Message edited by: Bob H ]

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HAWKMAN
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Chris,

You are dead-on, 100 percent accurate in your observation. I don't even have to read Bob H's post to know what it says. The problem is, in my opinion that Bob H's rants have gone way beyond just the simple posting of numbers. In my opinion they served to actually work AGAINST the TWA pilots.

How many of us have heard from SNBs about how the TWA pilots STAPLED the OZ guys? I have. I've even heard Bob H's named used in reference to this as the source of this rumor. A rumor that was openly used by the SNBs and their APA to justify their abhorent treatment of the TWA pilots (you and me!)

This is not something that anyone who was a former TWA pilot should be proud of. And, it my opinion, it raises serious questions regarding motives of individuals who would shamefully participate in efforts AGAINST the TWA pilots.

HAWKMAN

[ 02-04-2004, 17:50: Message edited by: HAWKMAN ]

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Bob Ritchie
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Hawkman,

The APA/AA merger attorney and the OZA merger attorney was the same individual.

There was no confusion within the APA as to what happened during the OZA/TWA merger. None whatsoever!!

All they had to do was ask their lawyer. I am sure that he kept them fully informed. It is not difficult to believe that their lawyer wanted to extract his pound of flesh from the TWA pilot group. He was still smarting from the loss that his client suffered in 1986. Lawyers are like the rest of us....they don't like to lose.


Bob Ritchie

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by HAWKMAN:
Chris,

""..in my opinion that Bob H's rants have gone way beyond just the simple posting of numbers.""


""In my opinion they served to actually work AGAINST the TWA pilots.""

""I've even heard Bob H's named used in reference to this as the source of this rumor.""

""A rumor that was openly used by the SNBs and their APA to justify their abhorent treatment of the TWA pilots (you and me!)""

""And, it my opinion, it raises serious questions regarding motives of individuals who would shamefully participate in efforts AGAINST the TWA pilots.""

HAWKMAN

As I noted in my earlier message..

IF ANYONE wants to provide support for THEIR rumors, accusations & innuendos (based on all I've been accused of, it shouldn't be hard to find [Wink] ).. MAY I ASK AGAIN!!! Just provide the support for your "claims" and I'll accept full responsibility.

Then again, I guess it's just a lot easier to blame someone else for what happens that you don't seem to like.

For those who did not know, the AA merger committee had the full text of the TW/OZ integration document from the very beginning and IT DID NOT COME FROM ME.. One would think by now that these "experts" frequently expressing their comments here and other web sites would have know that the APA attorney was the exact same attorney that OZ pilots had in 1986.. THEN AGAIN IT SOUNDS SOOOO MUCH BETTER TO SAY BOB H PROVIDED THE INFORMATION TO THE APA..

On the other board I KEEP asking.. Why was I never deposed by the TW pilots as they pursued how many suits now? Certainly if I did as you (and others) claim you could have me deposed and help your legal pursuit.. THAT IS **IF** YOU WERE TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT ME WHICH YOU AREN'T!!..

I do agree with Gary Hawk's conclusion above.. The OZ pilots (including CA's), were by DOH methodology integrated into the TW seniority list at or near the same percentage ratio as the TW pilots were integrated into the AA seniority list albeit not using the DOH methodology. Now if Gary would care to dispute that, I'll be very happy to see his analysis.


One thing that should be very puzzling to most anyone reading this;

The former TW/ALPA leadership that individuals like Gary Hawk support had FULL CONTROL of (those are mostly the same individuals I mentioned earlier who do not have me on their holiday gift list. They are ALSO the same individuals who are either the named plaintiff's in the suits against AA/APA & ALPA or provide support for them);

* The TWA MEC including Bob Pastore as the TWA MEC Chairman.

* 3 of 5 of the TW/ALPA merger committee members voted against the AA/APA final offer in DCA in Oct 2001 and against the recommendation of their own highly paid legal counsel.

In other words guys like myself had zero control of the actual events during the integration yet are now blamed because the integration turned out so negatively. Whatever happened to those TW pilots who claimed they were in control and were there because they were supported by the majority of the TW pilots? I seem to remember the Nov 2001 Marriott PEP RALLY (that was the ALPA meeting) where EVERY individual I wanted in control of my future was voted out while EVERYONE YOU wanted was elected.. OR DID YOU FORGET?

I bet I can find all sorts of grandiose claims of how Bond, Talent & Carnahan were going to make certain this integration would be corrected. Then there are all of the claims of how the legal pursuit was going to prevail. NOPE.. It must be Bob H's fault that approximately half of the TW pilots lost from 12 years to 1 day as they were integrated/stapled into AA's seniority list.. Oh by the way, since you asked, the AA pilot next to me was hired ~16 years after me.

NOW.. IF Gary or Chris or anyone else would like to provide something to back up their usual "rumors" and "innuendos".. Then we could actually have a discussion?

Bob H

[ 02-04-2004, 18:48: Message edited by: Bob H ]

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HAWKMAN
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Bob,

Your missive says it all. You sir, in my opinion, are an expert at BS, subterfuge, smoke and mirrors. Your rambling posts serve as evidence to what I speak is true. Where even to begin? Well, let's just take a couple of points. . .

You refuse to admit that you worked against the TWA pilots. Something that I believe to be absolutely true.

You claim that you "agree" with my conclusions. But then add your typical smoke and mirror BS. What is it, exactly that you do agree with? That the OZ pilots were NOT stapled? That somehow, your maligned, twisted figures make these two mergers seem the same? You are kidding right? If you're not there's only ONE possible motive that I can even come up with for you to even want to do this!

You keep going on and on regarding deposition. Why would you be disposed? First, we haven't even yet seen our day in court. Second, were you some sort of major player in the merger? Third, were you in some sort of decision making capacity regarding the merger? Bob, I think you are giving yourself way too much credit here. Don't you think?

You try to insinuate that we blame you for the way the integration turned out. Well, Bob, even with regard to the previous paragraph, in part, yes I do. At least I'm giving you PART of the blame. I've explained this before in detail and you refuse to believe that your posts and other information was used by the SNBs and their APA to justify the red tail cleansing. What more can I say?

Bob, you and several others seem to be obsessed with espousing your view that you were right during the merger. Unfortunately, time has not proven you right or wrong. Only the outcome of the TWA pilot's litigation will answer this.

Considering your apparent obsession in this regard, I completely understand why you would write some of the posts that you do and shamefully and actively NOT support the TWA pilots' effort to seek justice.

HAWKMAN

[ 02-04-2004, 20:39: Message edited by: HAWKMAN ]

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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by reasonableman:
No 9/11, no buyout, NO TWA and AA employees would still have their jobs now for the most part. That would be ideal. TWA has been protected inside the STL fence so much that despite the fact I barely hold a decent FO bid there are many TWA pilots junior to me holding Captain slots in STL.

You could have been on the street 2 years ago. Your sense of entitlement is befuddling.
BTW I never send out any resumes.

MMmmm, sounds like sour grapes. Someone with a sense of entitlement that thinks this industry owes them a living, perhaps?

YOUR stinking union created CC, not us; if you're frustrated with that or the STL Captain protections, or the fact that when recalled I'll be making more money than you, tell your elected reps or join that group of radical idiots, the APAPDP.

If you think for one second that AA would'nt have furloughed THOUSANDS even without the TWA buyout, nor lost BILLIONS of dollars and downsized because of LCCs eating their lunch, you're smoking crack.

YOU coffee, ME kettle--- you calling me black???

Sense of entitlement, indeed; look in the mirror, pal. Thank your lucky stars AA bought TWA and furloughed US instead of YOU. [Razz]

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chrispy
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Reasonableable, u said :

I have trouble grasping that concept.

There are alot of concepts that many of the APA and AMR pilots fail to grasp unless it involves arrogance or greed.

The reason there are people senior to you, is because they started work before you. The reason, STL has a fence around is because APA didn't totally clense the AMR pilot seniority list of all the red tails. You say, there are STL Captains that are junior to you and flying Capt. Get a clue, these guys have 30 years of experience and brought airplanes and slots. The deal that Don Carty, Judas John, and Eddie Saks agreed to was to take the airplanes AND the employees of TWA, period...that is an undisputable fact, that is recorded in the BK courts, senate hearing and the merger documents.

But unless it involves arrogance or greed, you won't agree with me. But I'll make you happy. Out of the approx. 23,000 TWA employess that were there at the time of the merger, only 2100-2300 remain, and you're here whining, while nearly 85% of TWA employees took furloughs so that AMR employees wouldn't have to. Was that greed ? Yes. To whine that only 600 TWA slots were protected out of 2200 is arrogant.

But it gets better. When you look at the seniority list and see Capt TWA (for example) as being 500 numbers junior to you, but still a Capt, the most likely reaction is to be upset. But obviously you forgot that the reason Capt TWA is junior to you is because of the one-sided, rape and rob seniority list that was shoved down the throat of the TWA pilots. If Capt TWA even got half credit for his years of service 15-17 this would be a non-event. Remember, the reason people are senior to you is because they started before you, if you forgot.

But thats still not good enough for you, because we haven't given you enough greed and arrogance for one day. Of course, you're a self proclaimed aviation expert and know without a doubt that TWA was going out, and you predicted Continental's demise, American's near-bankruptcy, United's BK, America West which had a similar balance sheet as TWA, which is hiring, Valujet remerging as AirTran, etc. etc. You have no clue, what other options were presented to the TWA board prior to AMR agreeing to purchase our assets, no idea. The unions were in talks with Boeing, which would have resulted in the ouster of the TWA CEO. He choose to go to Don Carty (wouldn't you if there was a golden parachute so he could enjoy drinks with umbrellas).
TWA was instructed to declare BK, so the purchase could go thru without the baggage of Uncle Carl Icahn and the restructuring of all of TWA's new airplane, lease-payments-which were 3 times what AMR was paying at the time...but as an expert in the field you knew that.

But that's just ignorance not to do a little research, but instead just make claims that you know what is going to happen on the aviation industry. I'm glad you know, because the experts are surprised on a daily basis. And I suppose the reason you don't have resumes out is because you're such an expert. One more AA AAirbus tAAil-snAAping AAcrobAAics, and you may be wishing you had a few resumes out in the field.
But I will tell you this, most pilot recruiters won't even consider NAAtive pilots because of their arrogant, whinny, prima donna, "so-called" experts, unsafe flying(accident record speaks for itself-BDL,Cali,JFK,ORD,LIT), and high maint. And because they are SNB NAAtives-the title speaks volumes.

But that can't be all. You're arrogance will lead you to say, that TWA pilots don't deserve to fly on our equipment and don't deserve to have a protected cell. Well, then get all of the 2000/2001 new hires out of the TWA seats and recall the TWA pilots that were Captains and had 15 years of seniority. We brought airplanes and seats to the party, and you know who is sitting in them ? AMR new hires. Now that's arrogant, to whine that you guys are getting screwed by the TWA guys. Well Einstein, when Judas John, Conman and Eddie Saks crafted Supp CC, they intended to screw as many red tails as possible, and they did...and you still want more ??? C'mon...does the arrogance of a SNB ever stop ?

You show me ANY, I mean ANY, Major Airline that has pilots on the street AND that has 2000/2001 hires still on the property while 15 year captains were scabbed out of their seats. It's because Supp CC SCREWED the TWA pilots, and you are whinning. Now that's greedy, and that's arrogance and everyone in aviation knows it.

Next time you jumpseat on USAir, United, or talk to your guard buddies, ask them what the nickname for the AMR NAAtives is:

And also ask them how well your pilot group treated the TWA pilots. Dont be surprised if you're compared to dog fecces.

Get a clue, einstein.

[ 02-07-2004, 13:45: Message edited by: chrispy ]

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love to fly
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Chirpsy,

You sure are angry. Must be real fun to fly with you. Stop blaming others, don't see much of what you are ranting about AA pilots from crews at USAir, Delta, etc... Your situation is bad and we all know it, alot of airline people are in the same boat. Someone was going to get "screwed" with the buyout of TWA, sorry it was you. More sorry about 9/11 and its aftermath. Pretty harsh to say such foul things about AA pilots and their abilities with regards to terrible accidents! Guess you never heard how the pilots at the big airlines talked about why the guys at TWA were there and not at a major airline? Your mean spirited comments do no good for anyone. Use your time off to reflect and let go of the anger before you get an ulcer. Hope you, and everyone else who actually wants to be here, get back to AA soon, but bring a nicer attitude please!

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HAWKMAN
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Chrispy,

Excellent post. 100 percent dead-on accurate. The SNBs should be downright ashamed for their treatment of the TWA pilots. Speaking of shamefull, let's interpret love's post; "we screwed you guys BIG TIME. . .get over it. . .and let me kick you with a few insults while your down and unemployed." Sad thing is this person isn't even willing to THANK YOU for saving their job! SHAMEFULL at best. . .but typical SNB.

HAWKMAN

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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by love to fly:
Guess you never heard how the pilots at the big airlines talked about why the guys at TWA were there and not at a major airline? Your mean spirited comments do no good for anyone. Use your time off to reflect and let go of the anger before you get an ulcer.

Aaahhh, genius, TWA was a 'major airline'. It had over $1 billion in annual revenues, flew almost 200 jets to over 115 cities on 4 continents, with a worldwide 4% market share of ALL passengers carried.

What if we wanted to be here and not THERE?

As for your last sentence, an old Chinese proverb once said:

"Do not judge another man unless you have walked 1000 miles in his shoes."

Heed that advice before making 'reflect and let go' recommendations, please.

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Jeff I.
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quote:
Originally posted by B-757-200:
quote:
Originally posted by love to fly:
Guess you never heard how the pilots at the big airlines talked about why the guys at TWA were there and not at a major airline? Your mean spirited comments do no good for anyone. Use your time off to reflect and let go of the anger before you get an ulcer.

Aaahhh, genius, TWA was a 'major airline'. It had over $1 billion in annual revenues, flew almost 200 jets to over 115 cities on 4 continents, with a worldwide 4% market share of ALL passengers carried.

What if we wanted to be here and not THERE?

As for your last sentence, an old Chinese proverb once said:

"Do not judge another man unless you have walked 1000 miles in his shoes."

Heed that advice before making 'reflect and let go' recommendations, please.

And I'd also add that until the very last few years (primarily after Gitner took the axe to JFK), TWA, notwithstanding Carl's sellout of LHR to AA, still had a larger presence at JFK than AA.

Not a major airline???? Yeah, right.

Jeff I.

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love to fly
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Once again can't say anything here. I was referring to Chirpsy's hatred, mean spirit and foul comments. Deny that they are such? If you think it is a big person who spews hateful statements about the pilots involved in airline crashes you are sick too.

As for B767, The same goes for you, don't judge the "SNB"'s so harshly until you have walked in their shoes. We did not ask to buy you and are not to be blamed for it happening.

You spout hateful comments, mix in some facts, and sit around slamming AA employees for your misfortune. Blame those in charge, management.

We all wish the buyout had never happened! Might still be a peaceful place around here. Sure, we would have furloughs still, but we would not have people who hated us simply because we had the good fortune to be hired by AA and not TWA.

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HAWKMAN
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"Blame those in charge, management."

Again. . .so typical SNB. I seem to remember hearing about something called the "Supplement CC." This document defines the terms of the forced "integration," for the pilots. The document was signed by both management. . .and the AMERICAN PILOTS.

Bottom line, the "blame someone else," stratagem doesn't work here. . .there is no defense for the shamefully egregious treatment of the TWA pilots and the other thousands of TWA employees.

HAWKMAN

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AABob
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What's an SNB?

SCAB something or other?

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Jeff I.
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quote:
Originally posted by love to fly:
Once again can't say anything here. I was referring to Chirpsy's hatred, mean spirit and foul comments. Deny that they are such? If you think it is a big person who spews hateful statements about the pilots involved in airline crashes you are sick too.

As for B767, The same goes for you, don't judge the "SNB"'s so harshly until you have walked in their shoes. We did not ask to buy you and are not to be blamed for it happening.

You spout hateful comments, mix in some facts, and sit around slamming AA employees for your misfortune. Blame those in charge, management.

We all wish the buyout had never happened! Might still be a peaceful place around here. Sure, we would have furloughs still, but we would not have people who hated us simply because we had the good fortune to be hired by AA and not TWA.

Although it doesn't excuse the culpability of the aforementioned by Hawkman et al., however, I do give a nod that part of the blame should be directed at management ..... TWA management for putting their hardworking employees at the mercy of AA.

Jeff I.

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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by love to fly:
As for B767, The same goes for you, don't judge the "SNB"'s so harshly until you have walked in their shoes. We did not ask to buy you and are not to be blamed for it happening.

You spout hateful comments, mix in some facts, and sit around slamming AA employees for your misfortune. Blame those in charge, management.

If you mean me, B-757-200, do you mean walk in the shoes of the 2001 new-hire, junior, just-off-probation AA pilots who are still working (sitting in MY seat, flying out of MY domicile, in MY airplane) while I'm on the street? You mean walk in the shoes of still-working pilots who were hired long after me while I'm furloughed?

Blame is two-fold here, both AA unions and management.

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chrispy
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Love to Fly,

Thanks for confirming what the rest of the airline industry knows....AA NAAtives = Arrogance and greed..thank you, I appreciate you validating my post.

What is a SNB ? Don't ask a TWA pilot, ask anyone else in the industry...anyone. Even CFIs at the local flight school.

Love to Fly, here's the deal, even though you come up with another lame rebuttal. You're APA Pilot's said that the TWA pilots were K-mart pilot while the NAAtive pilots were Nordstrom/Saks 5th Avenue pilots (Ed White , APA Nego Chairman). Now, love to fly, when u guys are so much more superior than the TWA pilots, why do u guys loss an airplane hull at a rate of one a year-due to PILOT ERROR. Before, Ed White goes on to say how great the NAAtive pilots ARE COMPARED to the TWA pilots, and that's their justification for screwing them, tell him and you to look in the mirror.

In the 65 years that TWA pilots flew Internationally, we never got arrested for arrogantly flippin' off the host country.

Hateful comments, you bet, when your job gets scabbed by new hires and you lose your job/house/marriage/health due to unfair arrogance and greed, the 20,000 TWA employees won't get mad, they'll get even. Hope you studied the USAir /Piedmont merger history and subsequent failure, because the fireworks are about to start.

Cant wait to be called back !!! Do you know what red-circling an airplane means ?

You arrogant idiots made you bed, and guess what, we're going to make you lay in it. You had a CHOICE to be fair...even if you gave us a fraction of our seniority, a fraction, you arrogant, greedy pigs, you wouldnt face these problems, but like typical /SNBs...we will remind you of your injustice for the next 30-40 years. You're choice, take responsibilty for your arrogant choice.

Well love to fly, just remember, pigs get fatter, HOGS like the architects of the TWA screw job will get slaughtered.

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love to fly
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Chirpsy,

No arguing with you and your hatred! I will start the petition to get you back, full DOH, today. What was I thinking, you deserve my seat. You and your attitude are just what we need here, talk about arrogant! I guess you will fit right in! I should suffer rather than you, because that is the only way you will stop your hateful rants. Our families should all suffer! I will do it, I will atone for my horrible behavior. I was not a member of management or the union committee, so what they did to you is all my fault. I see the light now. I did this to you. I ruined your life. Sorry Chirpsy, I will get the word out today! DOH for Chirpsy, he deserves it! He is actually arrogant enough to be one of us! I now understand that TWA was in a great position when AA bought it, a thriving airline with great career expectations. I know this is what you would do if the tables were turned, so I will too!

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Bob Ritchie
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"Well love to fly, just remember, pigs get fatter, HOGS like the architects of the TWA screw job will get slaughtered."

Posted by Chrispy,

##################################################
##################################################


Chrispy,

Obviously you never spent much time on a hog farm. Otherwise you would know that they all end up on someone's platter; except those that are kept for breeding new slaughter pigs.

Come to think of it; that is kind of what has been going on in this industry since deregulation.

Bob Ritchie


p.s. As I mentioned on another thread;after the OZA captains were flushed from our seats in 1990; a very angry former OZA captain said to me: "Bob, know your enemy and kill him before he kills you!" I was ALPA's aeromedical chairman then and management asked me to help this pilot.

In response to my efforts:the enraged,former captain/friend of mine, threatened to kill me as well. A few months later the company forced him to undergo psychiatric counciling. As a result of his 'unresolved anger;' the FAA pulled his medical certificate and "BANNED HIM FOR LIFE" from ever again possessing an airman's certificate.

Fourteen years and a new airline later,it is clear to me, that AA is even less forgiving of such matters than was TWA.

How we respond to life's inequities can have a profound effect, not only upon our personal peace and that of our families; but even one's ability to practice our chosen profession.

[ 02-09-2004, 08:25: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]

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HAWKMAN
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All,

"after the OZA captains were flushed from our seats in 1990"

Don't let this statement fool you. All OZ captains were not forced from their seats in 1990. Some OZ captains did lose their seats due to being merged into a more senior pilot group via DATE OF HIRE.

If anyone has any questions regarding how the OZ pilots were integrated into TWA the full date-of hire OZ merger agreement is available for viewing 24/7 at www.twapaf.com.

HAWKMAN

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Bob Ritchie
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Hawkman,

I apologise for an incomplete statement. I should have said.........

.......suffering from a "CRAMDOWN" seniority integration signed with a "GUN TO THEIR HEADS" and having been "DENIED" the protection of "ALPA'S MERGER POLICY"...former OZA captains: representing more than "2/3 OF THE OZA CAPTAIN STATUS", having been placed within the "BOTTOM 16%" of the combined seniority list, using a "TWA PILOT IMPOSED METHODOLOGY", which "LARGLY REFLECTED" the seniority denegration suffered by the TWA pilots in the AA/TWA merger, the former OZA captains suffering "RESTRICTIONS" which would last more than 17 years and prevent the OZA captains from exercising their seniority.....the vast majority of the former OZA captains with up to "18 YEARS OF SENIORITY AND LENGTH OF SERVICE" and possessing up to 12 years as industry standard DC9/MD-80 captains, who having been integrated "JUNIOR" to "TWA F/E'S" who had accumulated, in some instances only "4 YEARS LENGTH OF SERVICE" at TWA .........
..... those former OZA captains in 1990 were FLUSHED from their captain's seats......

....then the true subject of my post which concerned the fate of an angry former OZA captain and was intended to be of benefit to a current fellow pilot, who seems to be following the same dangerous profile; might have been better appreciated.

Bob Ritchie

[ 02-09-2004, 12:38: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]

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TW1
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Hawkman,
I realize you were not even on the property during the OZ/TWA aquisition, but wasn't ALPA "merger policy" DOH adjusted for time in service in 1986? You can call it what You want, but when one's own union sells them out by changing the rules in the middle of the game because the larger group threatens to quit... to get ALPA to change the policy, they did. Furlough time counted as time in service for the TWA guys, not for the OZ guys and TWA stayed in ALPA!
Some DOH, most of those guys had more time on the street than they ever did working! I call it union sellout. Sound familiar?

[ 02-10-2004, 07:42: Message edited by: TW1 ]

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Bob Ritchie
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TW1,

The ALPA merger policy in 1986 did not give credit for furlough time. That was a real problem for TWA pilots with early DOH but up to 12 years of furlough time.

Failure to abide by the ALPA policy concerning furlough time completely changed the nature of a DOH integration. Of course, contrary to popular opinion... DOH wasn't ALPA policy in 1986 anyway.

Bob Ritchie

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Don Capt Skypig Foldy
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Bob H "got his" and "revenge is sweet". That sums up his position.
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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by love to fly:
What was I thinking, you deserve my seat. I was not a member of management or the union committee, so what they did to you is all my fault. I see the light now. I did this to you. I ruined your life. I will get the word out today! DOH for... I now understand that TWA was in a great position when AA bought it, a thriving airline with great career expectations.

Sir, that was'nt the point. The point was, not whether you were a union/management official officially crafting the un-integration, but what were you doing while the wholesale slaughter was occuring? Were you at APA meetings yelling "Staple! Staple! They don't deserve s**t!" ? Or were you just a silent, unconcerned junior pilot thinking "I'm glad they're screwing them and not me!" ?

And as far as a 'thriving airline with great career expectations', that certainly does'nt describe AA. AA has now lost over $7.2 BILLION since 2000, which is more than DOUBLE what TWA ever lost in it's 76-year HISTORY.

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HAWKMAN
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Bob,

Why is it that several of you OZ types are always desparately trying to draw some sort of misrepresented parallels between the two mergers? What is the purpose of doing that?

You did that in your message to Chrispy. Your statement made it sound as though ALL OZ captains lost their seat due to some inequity in the merger. Something that we all know not to be true.

But that isn't the first time. What I've noticed is that these little misperceptions are always buried somewhere in a message where someone is claiming that they are trying to help us in some way, or to wish us good fortune, or an early return. Then, when confronted with the truth (www.twapaf.com) a whole lot of smoke and mirrors come out. A trend that continues to this day, as evidenced by this message string.

So, why is it that several outspoken individuals, including yourself, are constantly trying to forward misperceptions and half-truths regarding the OZ DATE-OF-HIRE merger agreement? What is the purpose in doing that? And ultimately, do you somehow feel like you're actually helping the TWA pilots when you do that?

Or, perhaps you are trying to help the American Pilots? Which is it?

HAWKMAN

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Don Capt Skypig Foldy
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Hawk: see my post re BobH
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HAWKMAN
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Don,

I did. And I agree. Another post 100 percent dead-on accurate.

HAWKMAN

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy:
Bob H "got his"

Stupid question but I was just wondering what "I got" that you consider unreasonable or unfair after 30 years OZ DOH seniority/14 years simulated AA seniority.

Bob H


OZ- 1974-1986 (DC9 CA 12th year = ~1 year/CA)

TW- 1986-2001 (MD80/FO to MD80/CA TW/STL in my 22nd year = ~3 years/CA (5 as CA was possible)).

AA- 2001-present (MD80 CA 27th-30th year = ~3 years/CA)

6 years to go.

[ 02-09-2004, 15:19: Message edited by: Bob H ]

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Bob Ritchie
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Post Captain
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posted 02-09-2004 13:08
----------------------------------------
Bob,

Why is it that several of you OZ types are always desparately trying to draw some sort of misrepresented parallels between the two mergers? What is the purpose of doing that?

You did that in your message to Chrispy. Your statement made it sound as though ALL OZ captains lost their seat due to some inequity in the merger. Something that we all know not to be true.

Posted by Hawkman

####################################


Gary,

You made it a red/green issue. Not me. I stopped raising the subject a long time ago.



Best Wishes,

Bob Ritchie

[ 02-11-2004, 07:03: Message edited by: smilinjack ]

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Bob H
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I guess the AA haters have been too busy to respond to a question?

I'll try again [Wink]

To Gary Hawk & Don Foldy.. Ed Price and the couple of others who are so quick to judge, please feel free to jump in!!

Where's the meat?? What did I unfairly/unreasonably get??

Bob H

==============

quote:
Originally posted by Bob H:
quote:
Originally posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy:
Bob H "got his"

Stupid question but I was just wondering what "I got" that you consider unreasonable or unfair after 30 years OZ DOH seniority/14 years simulated AA seniority.

Bob H


OZ- 1974-1986 (DC9 CA 12th year = ~1 year/CA)

TW- 1986-2001 (MD80/FO to MD80/CA TW/STL in my 22nd year = ~3 years/CA (5 as CA was possible)).

AA- 2001-present (MD80 CA 27th-30th year = ~3 years/CA)

6 years to go.


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Skyking
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Why does every thread turn into a TWA/OZ merger argument?

As to Bob H's question about what he got?

Well... what he got was a dream career compared to those TWA guys that he feels "unfairly/unreasonably" took advantage of him.

Wake up and look around at the over 1000 TWA pilots whose careers have been destroyed by this merger!

Ward Miles

edited for spelling

[ 02-12-2004, 08:39: Message edited by: Skyking ]

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by Skyking:
Why does every thread turn into a TWA/OZ merger argument?

As to Bob H's question about what he got?

Well... what he got was a dream career compared to those TWA guys that he feels "unfairly/unreasonably" took advantage of him.

Wake up and look around at the over 1000 TWA pilots who's careers have been destroyed by this merger!

Ward Miles

Ward-

You have me confused?? Yea, I know that's not so hard to do!

1. If you go to the top and start down, you'll find Gary Hawk was the first person to bring up the OZ nonsense AGAIN!! (hit Ctrl F and type in OZ, enter and you'll go to the first entry).

---

2. You wrote above; ""Well... what he (Bob H) got was a dream career compared to those TWA guys that he feels "unfairly/unreasonably" took advantage of him.""

My reply- I am the first person to acknowledge I AM the luckiest man on earth. Look back and you'll find this is NOT the first time I've made that same statement.

You'll have to explain how I claimed TWA guys "unfairly/unreasonably" (your words) took advantage of me and I ended up with the "dream career" compared to them (pre 1986 TW hires).!!

You suggest above that I am not aware of the 1,000 TWA pilot's whose careers have been destroyed.. May I suggest you are WAAAAY off base. ANY time you want to sit down and discuss face to face the EXACT numbers of pilots who have lost, what they have lost and what they MAY have left, just let me know.. I will strongly suggest you will come away looking like a complete fool!

Bob H

Let me add one more thing.

I think I'm at least somewhat involved with the efforts to help STL/TW pilots including following most of the happenings within APA/AA.

YOU CAN TAKE THIS TO THE BANK..
quote:
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE AA PILOT I'VE EVER MET OR TALKED TO WHO ISN'T FULLY AWARE OF THE FURLOUGHED PILOTS AT AA AND THAT FULLY INCLUDES THE ONE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SEVEN FORMER TWA PILOTS WITH TWENTY FIVE MORE TO BE FURLOUGHED IN 21 MORE DAYS.


[ 02-10-2004, 19:48: Message edited by: Bob H ]

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Don Capt Skypig Foldy
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and most I"VE met have NO REGRETS that I am on the street, and furthermore, most I've met will not be happy until YOU are at least a right-seater or on the street yourself, BobH.
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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy:
and most I"VE met have NO REGRETS that I am on the street, and furthermore, most I've met will not be happy until YOU are at least a right-seater or on the street yourself, BobH.

I guess Don Foldy has the right to post his accusations to this MB CLAIMING I unfairly "got mine" (whatever that may be after 30 years seniority) but he apparently can't even come up with anything that I supposedly got/received so unfairly.

Here are a couple of tidbits for the SJ lurkers.

* Over the past few years, I received many many phone calls at my home from MANY TW pilots asking for information, projections and analytical opinions. A few of those calls even came from Don Foldy. In each phone conversation, I shared whatever time and information I may have had.

In spite of the small number of angry frustrated individuals you have become accustomed to reading on this public MB.. The vast majority of TW pilots are hard working and dedicated to making AA a better place and BELIEVE just the opposite of what Mr. Foldy unfortunately expresses above.

Contrary to Don's wish above.. My WISH (and that of MOST ALL AA pilots) and HOPE is that AA management and employees are able to turn this company around and Don Foldy and ALL pilots/employees will have the option to return to this airline far sooner than many predict.

------

* There are approximately 4,000 AA pilots who contribute, primarily on a monthly basis, to the "APA Furlough Pilot Loan Fund".

Nearly $One and a quarter **MILLION** dollars has SO FAR been provided to those pilots who have unfortunately been furloughed. A GREAT deal of this money HAS BEEN provided to former TWA pilots. Of the ~4,000 fund contributors, less than 3% are former TW pilots. In other words, several THOUSAND of those SNB's Native American Pilots ARE AND HAVE BEEN contributing to this very worthwhile fund and helping MANY former TW pilots through difficult financial times.

Bob H

Unfortunately, you will now likely hear some other hateful venom against the APA pilot's efforts noted above.

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C185FLTFLYR
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Bob H:

I am going to say publicly that I for one do not believe that you are an all out self serving SOB!

But I really have a hard time comprehending anytime you really defend the APA or American Airlines Pilots. How much do most of those pilots give monthly on an individual basis? I have heard it's an average of about 10 Bucks. There are many former AA pilots on furlough also, hence the large contributor list. I do believe that it is fairly important to mention that Jeff Darnall has been handling contributions to TWA pilots for a considerable amount of time that is not repayable. Many TWA pilots contributed to this fund up until the day they were furloughed! Many still do.

I would bet that most AA pilots think it's a pretty cheap price to pay for the job security that they ended up with via Supplement CC. I mean, do they have about 1000 of their own pilots still employed that would not be if it were not for the blatant stealing and scabbing of our jobs. Who are the CoPilots on our 757's? We have only about 50% of the Captains required to fly the airplanes that we brought to the party. Not to mention the F/O's required.

Frankly, I would never ask for a dime from the APA. It is on the same line as asking for money from the MAFIA!!! Do you really enjoy contibuting to the MOB? The interest is almost as HIGH! It's actually higher, I have paid for it with my JOB!!!

Cary

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Christopher
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Long time lurker, first time poster.
I understand the frustration. You need to look outside your circle of friends if you think everbody thinks AA/APA shafted the TWA pilots.

ASA CRJ pilot

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Bob H
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Cary-

First let me say I am sorry that you and so many others are now furloughed. I have close friends not only here but also at Usair and UAL. My good friend went to Usair when he was furloughed in the '86 OZ/TW merger. He's now just hoping to keep a job and realizes his career is headed closer and closer to an RJ, that is IF Usair even makes it. If he had stuck it out with OZ/TW, he'd be just junior to me. Another friend left OZ/TW and went to AA. He's now ~2,000 numbers JUNIOR to me and realizes he'll never make CA before he retires in 4 years. If he'd have stuck it out with OZ/TW he'd have been in the left seat of the 767 a while ago. This profession has no real security, it always has been this way and always will be.

We can blame our misfortunes on 9/11, poor management, APA, ALPA, AA it doesn't really matter. What we have is what we've got.. PERIOD!! Right now (numbers approx) 35% of Usair's pilots are furloughed.. 19% of UA's pilots are furloughed.. 18% of AA's pilot's are furloughed.. 14% of NWA's pilots are furloughed.. 13% of DAL's and CAL's pilots are furloughed. In the early 70's, 30% of the pilots from the major carriers were furloughed.

In every merger, one group of pilots has detested what the other group did. I know Republic pilots who hate what NWA did to them. I know PAA pilots who hate what DAL did to them. I know Usair pilots who hate what LPP's and Piedmont did to them. The list goes on and on and on.. No doubt from your side of the fence, they all got a great deal compared to you. I have OZ friends who still absolutely hate TWA and the original TW pilots 17 years after the TW/OZ integration. For me, life is too short. Personally, I have been lucky as hell to have made it 30 years in this profession. Others look at their careers in a far different way.

If you and other TW pilots feel the need to blame EVERY AA pilot for where you are, then that's the choice in life you make. There were/are great OZ and TW pilots and there were some who were just simply unhappy miserable individuals. IT DIDN'T TAKE A MERGER TO MAKE THEM THIS WAY.. Go back through the archives and look at what guys like Arthur, Hawk, Case, Brady etc. etc. had to say about TWA LONG BEFORE AA CAME INTO THE PICTURE!!If you don't believe me, I have their MANY MANY quotes.

Before AA, I can remember NUMEROUS times cleaning the cabin up on short turns. Frequently a FA would jump in to help. Those that helped were always friendly and did so with a smile. Others sat in the seat bitching about TWA this and that.. I often wondered how two individuals doing the exact same job for the exact same amount of money could look at their chosen profession and employer in such opposite ways. Pilots are no different.

You can be disgusted all you want with me and what I try to represent. For years, myself and others did nothing but put the effort forward to help our company and our profession be better. Many still try.

IMO, MANY of you have become so focused on the anger and the blame for where you are that you have lost sight of the difference between what IS good and what is not and who is trying to help and who is not.

Your comments above regarding the APA furlough fund are a perfect example.. There are MANY MANY former TW pilots who are furloughed who have been provided financial help from the fund set up by the APA.. Do you consider those fellow TW pilots any less than you because they took the help offered by the APA and AA pilots?

Less than six months ago (excluding the AA pilots hired after the 4/10/2001 TW acquisition), 100% of the AA furloughed pilots were former TW pilots. YET... You can't accept that thousands of REAL AA pilots were giving to the furlough fund unless it can be rationalized that they do so because of the screwing they did to you and other TW pilots or it's only a lousy $10 a month (by the way do you know how many months it would take to collect give of take a $million and a half at $10/month?).

I long ago accepted the FACT that many of you are unable to separate "information" from "emotional rhetoric". Quite frankly I don't care. There are a whole bunch of real AA pilots that I detest which can be evidenced on C&R exchanges. There are a few TW pilots who belong in the same boat with them. The **MAJORITY** of the AA pilots and the TW pilots are kind, responsible PEOPLE who sincerely hope nothing but the best for you and all of our furloughed employees. My sympathy goes out to the few individuals like Foldy and Hawk who are completely unable to see beyond the anger.

I'm off for a week of R&R so you (and others) can now have the last words.

Bob H

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HAWKMAN
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Bob,

Another missive that follows your typical pattern. Some guys just have the gift of bs. The only difference is that you didn't include your twisted and maligned figures about how this merger was as bad as what you guys got.

Bob, the sympathatic affable routine doesn't work anymore. Anger? No. Disapointment? Yes!

Disapointed that, in my opinion, a former TWA pilot would actively and shamefully work AGAINST his fellow TWA pilots in our pursuit of justice. Bob, I don't want your sympathy, or your prayers.

I just want you to stop working AGAINST the TWA pilots.

HAWKMAN

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by HAWKMAN:
Bob,

Another missive that follows your typical pattern. Some guys just have the gift of bs. The only difference is that you didn't include your twisted and maligned figures about how this merger was as bad as what you guys got.

Bob, the sympathatic affable routine doesn't work anymore. Anger? No. Disapointment? Yes!

Disapointed that, in my opinion, a former TWA pilot would actively and shamefully work AGAINST his fellow TWA pilots in our pursuit of justice. Bob, I don't want your sympathy, or your prayers.

I just want you to stop working AGAINST the TWA pilots.

HAWKMAN

Gary-

For those unaware, let's cut to the chase here.. You, Arthur, Hollander, Case and a very small number of others have been whining about my "missives" (read efforts) LONG before AA came along. Actually you and I and the other more notable TW radicals have been battling for what we believe is right and best many years BEFORE AA. Your accusations mean no more today then they did 6 years ago. For you and your small group, myself and many others have always been supposedly against YOU!! Would you like to see copies of the emails I received from none other than Bob Pastore THANKING me for helping the TW pilots and further comments as to the accuracy of the work I DID DO FOR THE TWA PILOTS?

----

Since YOU continue to inaccurately compare the 1986 TW/OZ pilot integration.. Why don't you answer the VERY SIMPLE questions below.. Yea I know, WHO CARES!! Just more rambling.. WHERE'S THE MEAT GARY?? Come on, show everyone reading this nonsense that you know what you're talking about and Bob H is FOS!

1. After the 1986/87 TW/OZ pilot integration.. If a tragedy like 9/11 had happened or a global financial meltdown of this industry had happened (read similar to the past 3 years).. AND TWA would have furloughed a similar (to AA today) ~19% of the combined TW/OZ seniority list.. What percentage of the OZ pilots would have remained employed out of the ~4,400 original TW/OZ pilots?

2. Presuming the furlough noted in 1. What percentage of the former OZ DC9 Captains would have ALSO been furloughed with 100% of the FO's?

3. Presuming 1. above, upon recall, what options would those former OZ DC9 Captains have had as far as returning to the left seat of the DC9?

4. 10 years AFTER the TW/OZ merger and pilot integration.. What percentage of the former OZ aircraft were STILL in the TWA fleet?

5. Considering 95% of the former OZ acft were still in the TW fleet in 4. above. What percentage of the former OZ DC9/MD80 Captains were STILL and had been flushed to the right seat 3-4 years after the TW/OZ integration?

--

For those of you wondering what this is all about? Gary Hawk, Don Foldy and most all of the others expressing their disdain for the former OZ pilots.. WEREN'T EVEN HIRED BY TWA UNTIL WELL AFTER the 1986 TW/OZ merger. YET... They talk and write as though they know everything about it.. The truth is they weren't here, don't know and are COMPLETELY unwilling to learn..

The questions above are very simple to answer by those whom were here.. The questions above will NOT be answered by Gary Hawk or Don Foldy because if they did answer the questions.. The rest of you would be "wondering what the hell"?

The **RATIO** integration of OZ pilots into the original TW seniority list was almost identical as the **RATIO** integration of TW pilots into the original AA seniority list ONLY 15 years later. The legal counsel for the AA/APA pilots in 2001 was the same individual as the OZ/ALPA pilots had in 1986.. See any coincidence there?

What makes the AA/TW integration so much WORSE than what has EVER previously happened is the tragedy of 9/11 and the tremendous downfall of this industry, not just AA but nearly every Major airline in our country.

The above comments and analogy are only applicable to the TW pilots. IMO, the TW FA's were treated FAR WORSE than ANY merger/integration ever experienced in this industry by two large airlines.

Bob H

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