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» Smilin' Jack   » Specific Airline Discussions   » TWA   » Remember The Year Before The Merger? (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Remember The Year Before The Merger?
Don Capt Skypig Foldy
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nope....I wasn't even THERE....
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Don Capt Skypig Foldy
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...but I USED to be there up to July 2003...

...I also wasn't even there...in **fact**, not even BORN during:
Hitler
Khan
WWI/WWII


and a whole host of other ugly events.

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Tom Girtman
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Bob H & Bob R

I was there and you both got DOH,DOH,DOH-no staple! I'm glad that TWA stood by its pledge to count furlough time in "Time of Service for Pay and longivity" It certainly was a major reason that hundreds of us returned to TWA after two furloughs in 12 years. You both wanted our time thrown out and our DOH adjusted to become junior to yours. SAD! Tom Girtman

[ 03-28-2004, 06:12: Message edited by: T-34 ]

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Don Capt Skypig Foldy
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Reread an earlier post on this thread:

MD80Capt
Junior Poster
Member # 1717

posted 02-02-2004 23:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a quick question......I have not posted here before, but I notice a certain constant through all the different postings, both here and on the other site, and that is, Bob H. is always defending AA and the APA, it seems any time there is a chance to rationalize Supp CC he is right there doing just that.

Am I wrong in this observation???

Chris


----------
doesn't sound to **ME** like this guy is forming an observation based on just a mere **FEW** postings by **Don Foldy** and one or two other named, **angry** people that I see professed with monotonous regularity in the recent missive. Gee BobH, too bad I'm not in politics...I'd be **thanking** you for the name-recognition.

Which way is the wind blowing today?? Why, **YOUR** way, of course!!

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Jeff Harris
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Tom Girtman,

What is sad is that the 1986 TWA Mec joined with Carl Icahn and ""IMPOSED"" a non negotiated integration on the OZ pilots. Does everyone hear that! The major reason I and many other OZ pilots have major heartburn over the episode is that the rules were not followed. Alpa rules.
Some of the more narrow minded and naive people on this board continue to harp on the fact that the integration was DOH. Sure it was, that is not the point. The point is that the TWA Mec determined the methodology that best suited them and ""IMPOSED"" the integration on the OZ pilots.
I dont want to fight the War Of 1986 again, but wild inaccurate statements are not helpful.
Jeff Harris

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HAWKMAN
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Bob,

Once again, a typical missive from you. The theme of your questions and statements is obvious. You are still desparately trying to draw misperceptions and misguided parallels about how this merger was the same as what you guys got. Well, it's not.

Let's draw some other comparisons. Yes, I wasn't here in 1986. I was hired in 1989. Anyone with a seniority list can figure that out.

When I got hired on, TWA was hirng for attrition. Shortly thereafter came the Gulf War and a recession. Actually, what followed was one of the worst times in the history of the airlines.

Here's a few questions to you;

After the TWA/OZ merger. . .and throughout the Gulf War and recession, was ONE OZ CAPTAIN ever furloughed? (This is a yes or no question.)

During the merger, were any OZ CAPTAINS merged onto the list below TWA NEW-HIRES? Bob, no time-served bs here. I don't want to hear your twisted logic percentage bs about F/Es. I'm talking about guys who were just hired on. . .better yet. . .guys who didn't even work a day on the line because they hadn't even finished NEW-HIRE training?

The 86 or so OZ first officers who were furloughed. . .what percentage of the total OZ pilot group did they make?

What was the longest duration of furlough for the above OZ first officers who were furloughed?

As far as I know, AA is the ONLY legacy carrier that has 2001 hires still on the line. Why is that?

Bob, you really need to stop with your misguided comparisons and twisted logic. From our viewpoint, you guys got one of the BEST mergers in the history of the airlines. Unlike us. . .you got DATE OF HIRE. But like you said, some guys you know will ALWAYS hate the red guys.

So, why is it that you feel the need to make it seem as though these two mergers were the same? What is your motive? And please, don't even try to tell us that you're not doing this. Your misguided perceptions and twisted comparisions are a very common theme in most all of your missives.

Back to motive. In some way, do you feel that presenting these misperceptions are helping the TWA pilots? Do you not realize that the APA and the SNBs use your misguided perceptions and twisted logic as justification for what they did to us?

Bob, what ever the motive, in my opinion your misperceptions and relentless pursuit to draw misguided parallels between these two mergers have done nothing but to shamefully hurt the TWA pilots.

HAWKMAN

[ 02-12-2004, 10:40: Message edited by: HAWKMAN ]

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HAWKMAN
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Jeff,

You are missing the point entirely. Doesn't matter how you got there. Whether or not ALPA followed it's rules or that the merger was "imposed." The end result is that you were given the respect that you deserved. . .you were given DATE OF HIRE. Period.

HAWKMAN

[ 02-12-2004, 10:37: Message edited by: HAWKMAN ]

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Bob Ritchie
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T-34
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posted 02-12-2004 06:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob H & Bob R

I was there and you both got DOH,DOH,DOH-no staple! I'm glad that TWA stood by its pledge to count furlough time in "Time of Service for Pay and longivity" It certainly was a major reason that hundreds of us returned to TWA after two furloughs in 12 years. You both wanted our time throw out and our DOH adjusted to become junior to yours. SAD! Tom Girtman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Tom,

Once again; I did not write ALPA merger policy or the Allegheny/Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions. Both were standards by which seniority issues had been historically resolved: neither of which gave credit for furlough time or used DOH as the exclusive method of integration.

I have tried to not frame these discussions within a personal context. Rather I see behavior of 1986 and 2001 as nothing more than a sad demonstration of human nature: the law of the jungle, the strong over the weak and the failure of institutions to provide a neutral arena; within which our disputes could be arbitrated.

Had the roles been reversed; I can assure you that I would have felt exactly as you do. It is reasonable to imagine that you would have felt as I do.

Wishing you personally the very best.

Bob Ritchie

[ 02-12-2004, 11:48: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]

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dave carr
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob H:
[QB] [QUOTE]

The **RATIO** integration of OZ pilots into the original TW seniority list was almost identical as the **RATIO** integration of TW pilots into the original AA seniority list ONLY 15 years later. The legal counsel for the AA/APA pilots in 2001 was the same individual as the OZ/ALPA pilots had in 1986.. See any coincidence there?


Hi Bob

I swore that I would never again get involved in this OZ/TWA situation. I guess I'm a person of very little self discipline. Please don't take my post as being argumentative. You know that I enjoy a good discussion.

I don't understand your use of the term **RATIO** as it relates to the AA merger with TWA. Because of your seniority in 1986 the TWA/OZ merger was not very advantageous. I can see why you wanted indefinite seat protection, no credit for furlough time, and unlimited access to all equipment. Unfortunately no merger has been a win/win for all sides. History will teach us that mergers are generally win/lose, but the big guys don't always win everything.

Let me give you one isolated case. In 1984, after 20 years as F/E and F/O I was finally able to hold the junior slot as a MD80 Captain in STL. Along comes the merge with OZ and by Bob Ritchies figures 120 Ozark Captains go on the seniority list ahead of me, a 21 year TWA Captain. That was around 20% of your seniority list. For the next 15 years I watched them exercise their DOH holding equipment, domiciles, flights, vacations, and days off senior to me.

Yes, you did bring airplanes and routes to the table and I got very well acquainted with the -10,-30,-40 fleet and places like Moline, Des Moines, and Waterloo. Your 120 Captains got acquainted with SFO, SAN, LAX, and ultimately Cairo, and Honolulu. One of the OZ folks even flew the final 747 flight after I was displaced from the 747 in 1997. I really could stretch the truth and claim that I was the one that was "crammed" down. Humor!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess that leads me to my question concerning **Ratio**. Did any TWA pilot go on the AA seniority list ahead of a 21 year AA Captain? If not, then can you really compare the merge of the AA/TWA group with what happened to you in 1986? If an OZ Captain had 30 years, he went ahead of a TWA Captain with 29 years, 11 months, and 29 days. Nobody got stapled. To tell you the truth, I have never heard one of those 120 ex OZ Captains complain about DOH or the methodology of the 1986 merge other than being equipment restricted for a period of time. They did complained about our beloved Uncle Carl cutting their pay.

I must say that I don't understand the attacks leveled at you. If I read your postings correctly you seem to be making an honest effort to educate yourself and the ex TWA pilots as to the ramifications of the AA buyout and how to work with the new reality that you face. I would think that this effort would be appreciated. I don't know if you're always right, but you certainly give your educated perspective.

Anyway, I wish you and all the ex TWA family the very best.

Dave Carr

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Bob Ritchie
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. After the 1986/87 TW/OZ pilot integration.. If a tragedy like 9/11 had happened or a global financial meltdown of this industry had happened (read similar to the past 3 years).. AND TWA would have furloughed a similar (to AA today) ~19% of the combined TW/OZ seniority list.. What percentage of the OZ pilots would have remained employed out of the ~4,400 original TW/OZ pilots?


****the above is is a quote cut from a long posting by Bob Herbst earlier in this thread
I am posting it here for a relative response.


__________________________________________________


Bob Herbst,


Actually something very close to what you suggest did happen after the merger of TWA/OZA. In fact the TWA shrinkage almost exactly matches the 19% AA furlough/reduction to which you refer. When you get back from your R&R: I suggest that you put your staticical analysis to work. You will be surprised.

Let me give it in simple,layman and personal terms.......

.......By May of 1996 the active combined TWA seniority list had shrunk from nearly 3,600 pilots in 1986 to around 2,900.

During that 10 year period I had moved up the combined list by over 1,500 numbers and had regained my captain's seat. Yet....I had a little less than 1,400 TWA pilots junior to me.

Now here is the shocker. Were it not for the 1,500 TWA pilots senior to me who had retired.... hundreds of them prior to age 60,.....I would have been furloughed in 1996 rather than regaining a captains seat!! Without retirements the shrinkage would have caught up with me. The 1,500 retirements represented more than 50% of the remaining pilot group in 1996. 50%!!!

The only thing that kept me: with 24 years of seniority, still working in 1996, was the massive retirements of a very old TWA pilot group. In fact, I would have been furloughed by more than 100 numbers. That furlough would have gone back to 1969 hires; both Red and Green. Pilots with 27 years of seniority would have been furloughed! The post 1986 TWA pilots(including OZA guys) recieved salvation; in the form of massive retirements: not as the result of an equitable seniority integration; as some would have you believe.

So you see.....we cannot take a snapshot in time and then compare what happens later. Without the shrinkage of TWA; the OZA pilots would not have suffered to badly. Without 911 and the lousy economy the TWA pilots would not be suffering so terribly now.

There are more parallels than some wish to acknowledge. But,the "what ifs" don't really matter. It is only the "what happened" that really counts. One can never reconcile the two. It just makes for interesting discussions on a cold wintery day.

Hurry back to work everybody,

Bob Ritchie

[ 02-12-2004, 11:59: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]

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HAWKMAN
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Bob R,

To start, thank you for the nice comments. I am honored that a fellow airman thought so highly of me. However, I was almost left speechless with the rest of your message. What!? Drawing a comparison of my statement about respect and God? That is just complete hog-wash and you know that. So, I'm not going to justify your comparison with address.

What I will address is my disapointment. Yes, I am disapointed that you have fallen into the same maligned effort that apparently consumes Bob H. And to what end? Helping the TWA pilots?

Stop to think about it for a second. Do you think that offering misconceptions and misguided parallels is actually helping in some way?

I clearly see it. The SNB who told me that we STAPLED the OZ guys, and mentioned Bob's name as the source clearly saw it. Why can't you?

Whatever. There is no talking sense to your group. There is no end in sight to Bob H's apparent efforts to hurt and work AGAINST the TWA pilots. What's done is done and will be remembered.

And it's just very unfortunate. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the OZ guys were some of the best pilots I have ever flown with or roomed with. From what I've been told regarding TWA before I knew her, the OZ guys helped change her into the TWA that I will remember forever.

It's just sad to see this last effort from a few of the outspoken OZ guys. An effort that only serves to place cloud over the once great Ozark mystique. And, an effort that is shamefully working AGAINST the TWA pilots.

HAWKMAN

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Bob Ritchie
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Gary,

I am happy to leave it there. Ozark and the reputation of it's pilots are secure in the footnotes of history. The skill of it's pilots were second to none. It will always be known as a friendly, down home, little, airline,that served mid-America with safety,determination and pride for 36 years.

TWA will always be remembered as one of,if not THE greatest airline the world has ever know. It's pilots pioneered aviation history and established records around the world. The history is forever enshrined; it is one of glory and prestige.

Too bad these two proud but very different airlines no longer prowl the skies of America and the World. Those were the days!

Your opinion of others is for you to decide. Personal impressions of historical developments aside.....I believe that we share in common; much more than we disagree upon.

Hang in there,

bob r.


bob r.

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dave carr
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob Ritchie:
[QB] Post Captain
Member # 2039


Please don't try to convince anyone that the TWA pilots would have imposed DOH on OZA had the OZA pilots been 10 years DOH senior to the TWA pilots. No one on earth will believe you and thus your arguement becomes meaningless. You somehow fail to understand that by implying..... that the TWA imposition of DOH was somehow an act of "respect" you sacrifice all creditability on the subject at hand.

Hello Bob

Respect is an interesting concept. I'm not so sure that DOH wasn't an act of "respect". Consider the following scenario and correct me if I'm wrong.

Did TWA in 1985 have to take any pilots with the purchase of Ozark? If memory serves TWA pilots were flying less than 70 hours per month. Uncle Carl owned the airline and could pretty much do whatever he wanted. As TWA pilots we could have increased our flying hours into the middle 70s per month and easily operated all the Ozark airplanes. It would have been a raise for us with nobody senior to us coming onto the seniority list. Uncle Carl would not have had to worry about an unhappy and pesky group of Ozark pilots being brought into the mix. In addition, when expansion or retirements created a need for new pilots, new hires could have filled the bill very nicely and economically.

At the time this thought never occured to me and probably not to any other TWA pilots, but would this have been possible? I don't know, but when he arbitrarily furloughed Ozark pilots it sure got your attention and brought an agreement in a hurry. Unfortunately you guys were on the ropes for no fault of your own and we could have pretty much done to you whatever we wanted. In looking at the end result, I'm wondering if maybe you didn't receive much respect, certainly more than you've received from AA.

Dave Carr

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smilinjack
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When you make a post don't put lines like....
########

or
+++++

or anything like that......it makes you have to scroll sideways, and I have to go in and delete them out.

Bob R .....I had to delete your whole post from above to make this thread fit right.....sorry.
jack

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AAflyingbrian67
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Can someone tell me the seniority of the most junior TWA pilot still flying? Or the most senior laid off TWA pilot. I also read that more X-TWA pilots were still being laid off. I am sorry but I thought the lay offs were over for pilots.

Thanks for the info.

Brian

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B-757-200
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Brian, the most senior TWA pilot furloughee is a September 1988 hire. The most junior TWA pilot still working is an Aug.'88 hire( a displaced Capt).

Comparably, the most senior AA pilot furloughee is a Jan.'01 hire (an F/O). There is another scheduled pilot furlough March 2nd,2004 and I believe that number was reduced from 200 to 160.

Corrections, anyone?

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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by dave carr:
Unfortunately no merger has been a win/win for all sides. History will teach us that mergers are generally win/lose, but the big guys don't always win everything.

I guess that leads me to my question concerning **Ratio**. Did any TWA pilot go on the AA seniority list ahead of a 21 year AA Captain? If not, then can you really compare the merge of the AA/TWA group with what happened to you in 1986?

Capt.Carr,

I believe in this case, we can safely say that AA got EVERYTHING---our seats, our routes, our airplanes, our slots, our most profitable assets and our JOBS. Anyone that does'nt see a complete and total 100% win/win 'victory' for AA and it's most junior, inexperienced employees is nuts.

Your last paragraph was absolutely, positively 110% accurate and should make everyone think. You can't possibly compare the wholesale integration of TWA and OZ employees (which did'nt cause massive job losses) with the TWA/AA debacle which will most certainly go down in history as the worst, most inequitable, most one-sided, most destructive and career-ending 'un'integration of two labor groups EVER.

No comparison whatsoever.

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AAflyingbrian67
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B757-200. thank you for the info.
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Don Capt Skypig Foldy
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J Harris etal:
so lemme git this straight...

doh wasn't good enough, and OZ wanted more?? [Confused]

[ 02-13-2004, 05:32: Message edited by: Don Capt Skypig Foldy ]

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Tom Girtman
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posted 02-12-2004 17:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you make a post don't put lines like....
########

or
+++++

or anything like that......it makes you have to scroll sideways, and I have to go in and delete them out.

Bob R .....I had to delete your whole post from above to make this thread fit right.....sorry.
jack

Jack,

Thanks for this information, I thought my computer was having display problems.

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TW1
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All,
I am an OZ guy and I think this AA/TWA buyout has been much more devastating than the OZ/TWA buyout. 20,000 out of 22,000 people on the street speaks for itself. People can blame it on 911, the economy or whatever but it still come's down to sheer annihilation for the former TWA group.
Dave, I believe you are correct when You said Carl could have done whatever he wanted. I remember TWA taking the four MD80's and flying them, putting 86 guys on the street. I also remember being told at a pilot meeting that TWA would take ten more airplanes a month till they were all gone if we didn't sign. We did then sign, with the gun to our head.
We had it very good at OZ, I remember those pay cuts and the low 62hr. months at TWA, but we had a job. I think these were very dark days for both former OZ and TWA pilots. We felt let down by our nat'l union ALPA, the same union TWA had. On that note at least APA protected their people, as I realize they had no legal responsibility to protect us. ALPA had that duty and once again failed. We were in trouble when we gave up the scope.

Bill

[ 02-13-2004, 17:18: Message edited by: TW1 ]

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Jeff Harris
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Don,
OZ pilots wanted the rules of the ALPA merger policy followed. We wanted a seat at the table, not an imposed agreement. Your obsession with DOH is tiring. Look at the complete history.

Jeff Harris

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CBXer
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Everyone,

What is getting old, is this rehash of the TWA/OZ merger comparison. It's done, finished, over, history............

What is at hand, is the AA/TWA merger. Unfortunatley we got what we deserved, due in part to our lack of unity. It is evident by reading these posts.

ALPA let us down. AMR and the American unions took advantage of the situation. And our own pilot group, couldn't unify!

Why, because some thought this merger would be good for all, some not, and others just sat on the sidelines.

What we got, was the worst integration in aviation history...........period. In no way does it compare to TWA/OZ, and shouldn't be!

While this is a simplistic view of what has happened to us, it is time to give it a rest, and let's move onto some more productive dialogue.

Cheers,

Kevin Horner

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C185FLTFLYR
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Bob H:

I hope you are enjoying your R and R. However didn't you just come back to work. I can imagine how 2 weeks back at work at AMR would cause the need for a VACATION!!! ( JUST KIDDING)

First, lets get something straight here. (And I am not going to waste any energy repasting quotes.) You stated that "I" feel indifferent towards "EVERY" AA pilot. That could not be further from the truth. I used the word "most"! You don't have to try and prove to me that "most" don't feel OK with what happened.

As far as TWA pilots accepting money from APA. Everybody's situation is different an I am not the type of person who would hold anything against anybody for doing what's right for them in that situation. I am almost offended that you would think that about me. And I do not associatte bad behavior by associated with the APA. I just stated what I thought about them as a union. Look at them? Is it not really true?

And do not accuse me of being angry. Do you not read any of my other posts. I believe your statement could be no further from the truth. I am a believer of playing the cards you are dealt with in life. So far I am holding a pretty good hand. I believe in your case it is just the opposite. You try to find "anger", and "frustration" in everybody's posts but yours!

However, given our situation and the way ALPA handled it, I have no feelings towards any other pilot group in this industry. They stood by and watched. ALPA wanted our lower pay scales removed from the collective bucket, and now they have watched the "economy", and "bad management", and "union arrogance", erode the industry's CBA's! What goes around comes around. I know you love that statement. It makes you feel justice has been done towards what happened to your case. What's come around for me again is flying single engine IFR at night after 3 years ago checking out as a Captain for a Major Airline. But I am HAPPY, and not ANGRY. I have a life outside of my work and do not miss going to work away from home anymore. It's sad when I talk to Captains who have less than 2 years to go and can't wait till retirement.

I do expect a professional response when you return.

Hope you enjoyed your R and R!!!!!!

Cary

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buzze
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This thread started out Remember the year before the AA buy. What happened is this better than that will never be resolved. 20 year Afro-Americans are claiming they have been discriminated against for 300 years. Jews still hate Arabs and Arabs hate Jews.
I remember that as a very good year. A year I was flying the 767 out in LA (Hollywood as we called it). I was out there because certain people made damn sure no more former Ozark people would fly 767's out of STL regardless of seniority. That said it gave me an opportunity to fly out of what I saw as a better domicile. I enjoyed it even with the commute more than I enjoyed St. Louis. I met wonderful people including Randy Kramer, who I have the greatest respect for. I remember flying with the most senior Flight Attendants with TWA. They were wonderful. I remember the check airmen. They were all wonderful gentlemen. All the people I worked with LA were terrific. I remember hours and hours of work in the ALPA MEC office working on problems for the pilots of TWA. I remember Kona, San Juan, and the other places we flew. I remember the very orderly structured training we received at TWA.
Then I remember Jan 7, 2001 when a CNN crew met us at the airplane on arrival. They wanted the crew to comment on what we felt about the news AMR was buying TWA. I avoided them, and I remember thinking I've heard rumors before and I hope to hell it was wrong.
Then I remember Jan 9, 2001 the MEC held a meeting at the Stouffer to trumpet the great news. While everyone around shouted approval, I sat quietly thinking damn it isn't going to be good, but we've been there before.
Up to 9-11 things were pretty much exactly as I expected, maybe better. But since 9-11 things have been worse. I don't think 9-11 affected the airlines as much as it allowed them to change direction. After 9-11 so much of our industry has left the majors and gone to commuters that they became regionals. Most of us we were a dealt significant blow to our career. Many junior pilots will over time do well, but they will be scarred by the difficulties of being furloughed. Several junior pilots will have their airline career terminated by age. Almost all the former TWA employees have been dumped for good from this company.
Yep the year before regardless of imperfections was a good year. May god bless the former employees of TWA.

Arthur J. Buzz Erickson

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extwacaptain
Prop Wash
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Thank you, Captain Erickson,

As bad as it was, as we look back, it was a great year. You, Sir, every time you were in terminal 3, made it a happier place. That will not be forgotten.

Thank you for all you have contributed to our airline.

Respectfully,


Randy Kramer

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Retav8r
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Randy, etal,
The year before the merger was definitely great although for me it meant the end of an almost thirty-five year career. I'll always have great memories of flying out of LAX and, more importantly, of the people who worked there. I still get together with other retired pilots for lunch once a month as well as lunch on a semi-frequent basis with ground employees whom I've also kept in contact with. Maybe you can join us sometime? Aside from the great SJU layovers, one memory that will always remain is the image of you standing in the back of the cabin, talking to the pax and this after the main door had been closed! I really did want to take you with us to JFK and would have if you hadn't run so fast to the front of the a/c! [Big Grin]
As Hope would say, thanks for the memories...

Don aka "Robert Redford" (an inside joke that Randy understands!)

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Life_Platinum
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"Robert Redford"!!!! Randy introduced me to him, and had me sit in the jump seat on a TWA 767-200 while he took a picture of "Robert Redford" at the controls with me just behind him during boarding at LAX early one morning. I'll have to look for that picture. That does bring back may memories.
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Retav8r
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Hey Doc,
If the captain who posed for the photo had silver hair and not nearly as good looking as Redford, then it was probably me! I remember posing for quite a few photos!
Don...an ex Brooklyn boy!

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Don Capt Skypig Foldy
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Jeff H:

I'm not obsessed with 'doh' as much as the APA was obsessed with me not even getting CLOSE to DOH.

Enjoy the reprieve until they finish pulling out ALL the sham rugs.

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mioguido
Post Captain
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(thank you Randy) my LAX trips on TWA were by far the best! the year before the merger was also around the time of Compton's Vision 2000. i remember all the hoopla surrounding the idea which had many thinking there was a positive plan for the future of TWA. now we find it was all smoke and mirrors ....just a distraction from their real plans... [Eek!]
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L1011Ret
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With all the revisits to TWA - OZA, maybe we need to rename this thread, "anger in search of a target."
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GDesloge
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Captain Kramer-

Do you know what George (the A&P at LAX who worked the gates) is doing now? A great guy with a lot of years at TWA. Thank you, and I hope you're doing well.

Gaines Desloge (aka Mel Gibson)

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extwacaptain
Prop Wash
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Gaines~
Please check your private messages.

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GDesloge
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Randy-
I have; thank you, and please check yours-
Gaines

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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by CBXer:
ALPA let us down. AMR and the American unions took advantage of the situation. And our own pilot group, couldn't unify!

What we got, was the worst integration in aviation history...........period. In no way does it compare to TWA/OZ, and shouldn't be!

Not only did ALPA let us down, they conivingly conspired with AA/APA to serve up our seniority on a platter for APA to devour, while completely selling us out on all fronts.

As far as unity, when you have pilots in your own group out to help themselves and totally sell out the rest, how can you even approach that?

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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by GDesloge:
Gaines Desloge (aka Mel Gibson)

Gaines! If you're Mel Gibson, them I'm Tom Cruise!

[Big Grin]

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Irish
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Jack,

This infant, Mike C, needs to find another playpen. Help him out the door, please!

Irish

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PITbeast
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Well, Jack, MikeC is enough to bring me out of retirement. Could you please lose him?
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smilinjack
The Big Boss
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MikeC is history.....I would bet that his parents are real proud of him....
Jack

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Bob H
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If anyone knows the wherabouts of furloughed TW pilot Michael Clary, could you please send me a way to reach him.

Thanks-

Bob H

numbersbob@hotmail.com

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Pablo Lewin
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob H:
If anyone knows the wherabouts of furloughed TW pilot Michael Clary, could you please send me a way to reach him.

Thanks-

Bob H

numbersbob@hotmail.com

Folks

I need this gentleman's contact info as well.

Thank you kindly

Pablo Lewin

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REDSOX24
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quote:
Originally posted by Pablo Lewin:
quote:
Originally posted by Bob H:
If anyone knows the wherabouts of furloughed TW pilot Michael Clary, could you please send me a way to reach him.

Thanks-

Bob H

numbersbob@hotmail.com

Folks

I need this gentleman's contact info as well.

Thank you kindly

Pablo Lewin


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REDSOX24
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SEARCHING FOR MIKE C. - LOOK BELOW THE STAPLE LINE UNDER "FURLOUGHED." HE'S ONE OF THE MANY THAT IS NOT QUITE AS GRATEFUL AS YOU WOULD LIKE FOR BEING UNEMPLOYED!!
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Pablo Lewin
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quote:
Originally posted by PURDUE60:
SEARCHING FOR MIKE C. - LOOK BELOW THE STAPLE LINE UNDER "FURLOUGHED." HE'S ONE OF THE MANY THAT IS NOT QUITE AS GRATEFUL AS YOU WOULD LIKE FOR BEING UNEMPLOYED!!

Clary

I don't expect anybody to be grateful for anything I did or did not do, However I do expect an individual no to libel me by posting invective that is simply not true.

What I did was to make the hard and unpopular choice of trying to save as many TWA pilots as possible under the horribly depressed leverage circumstances we found ourselves in which were impossibly aggravated by the dastardly attacks of 911.

While some TWA pilots were childishly ignoring all those events and going to silly parties in Washington DC, I and others on the MEC were doing the HARD and UNPOPULAR work of preparing for negotiations that HAD a chance of yielding REAL results.

If some of the mindless radicals that took over the last MEC had ANY gumption at all we would be in a better place with HUNDREDS more former TWA Captains working now with the possibility of domiciles on the coasts and most importantly a TRI-PARTITE SIGNED DOCUMENT that would have withstood the challenges that we will now surely get from APA radicals challenging what little we got.

Whoever the individual was that posted such libel about me and Herbst I AM sure he was a supporter of the last TWA MEC, you know the one that totally ignored the realities of what we faced and the one that totally ignored EVERY expert advise that told us we had to sign, that there was no legal basis to sue and that we would be "DANCING NAKED IN THE STREETS" if we didn't.

Well THE RADICALS won, we didn't sign and here we are dancing naked...

Like I said I don't mind people not understanding what we were up against and why I knew (and KNOW) that we had to sign ASAP, HOWEVER when someone crosses the line into the realm of libel and threats (private emails that I have been getting) then I must act.

And when I find the culprit of those libelous comments on this board and private threats I will PROSECUTE IT TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.

Laugh now while you can.

Captain Pablo Lewin
American Airlines

Last Chairman of TWA Council 4

PS I KNOW FOR A FACT that 3 years after the fact the majority of TWA pilots knowing what we know today would have signed in a heartbeat...3 years too late though.

[ 03-28-2004, 15:16: Message edited by: Pablo Lewin ]

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C185FLTFLYR
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Paco:

"While some TWA pilots were childishly ignoring all those events and going to silly parties in Washington DC, I and others on the MEC were doing the HARD and UNPOPULAR work of preparing for negotiations that HAD a chance of yielding REAL results."

Do you mind giving the dates and names of those in attendance?

Cary

[ 03-28-2004, 17:12: Message edited by: C185FLTFLYR ]

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Gumby
Post Captain
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quote:
Originally posted by Pablo Lewin:
quote:
Originally posted by PURDUE60:
SEARCHING FOR MIKE C. - LOOK BELOW THE STAPLE LINE UNDER "FURLOUGHED." HE'S ONE OF THE MANY THAT IS NOT QUITE AS GRATEFUL AS YOU WOULD LIKE FOR BEING UNEMPLOYED!!

Clary

................

And when I find the culprit of those libelous comments on this board and private threats I will PROSECUTE IT TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.

Laugh now while you can.

Captain Pablo Lewin
American Airlines

Last Chairman of TWA Council 4

PS I KNOW FOR A FACT that 3 years after the fact the majority of TWA pilots knowing what we know today would have signed in a heartbeat...3 years too late though.

Just to let you know, I must be in the minority based on what you seem to know. I wouldn't sign now or ever. My number is currently 12302. What would it have been if we had signed? I believe around 12302. As for protected captains, apparently you haven't noticed lately, the number of times the "line in the sand" has washed away (the no-furlough point). By the way, was that a threat towards Clary? It sure seemed like it to me, so maybe you should be concerned with AA policy on harassment as posted by Captain Morey, today.

Enjoy the LA sun but don't spend too much time out in it because it can be harmful in the long term or so I've read.

John Gombar
TWA #883

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chrispy
Post Captain
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Gumby,

You're not in the minority. Your's was the best posting here.

Smilin Jack, would you kindly commend John on his excellent posting to your board.

I'm 110% positive if we did sign and agree to Supp CC, that there would still be 75% of our pilots on the street (high price labor reduction coupled with divide and conquer-score one for Con Carty at the expense of the APA).

And if we did sign, every SNB response to our struggle for a fair and equitable seniority list would be "BUT YOU SIGNED IT AND AGREED TO IT, YOU TOOL".

If I recall correctly, when the OZ pilots went before a judge to plead their case of only getting DOH, the judge agreed with them , but said..."but you signed the damn thing."

Look how quickly the furlough protection for the Youth SNBs was sold down the river by the APA so that the 23% paycut didn't turn into a 33% paycut. That sure would have hurt all those 777 Captain's retirements.

If you think the APA is not staying up late at night, to think of ways to further dissolve Supp CC and increase the redtail cleansing while avoiding a representation greivance, then you must be a stand-up comic.

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chrispy
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While some TWA pilots were childishly ignoring all those events and going to silly parties in Washington DC, I and others on the MEC were doing the HARD and UNPOPULAR work of preparing for negotiations that HAD a chance of yielding REAL results.


----------------------------------------------------
What real results, 75% of the TWA pilot families are unemployed, lost their homes, marriages, etc.

The parties are looking better already.

AA merged with AirCal and Trans Carrib - DOH. TWA/OZ used DOH.

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zing
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>>What real results, 75% of the TWA pilot families are unemployed, lost their homes, marriages, etc.<<

What are you smoking? Or are you doing regular scientific surveys of the former TWA pilots?

My unscientific sampling of those furloughed pilots I am in contact with shows the vast majority have found new employment, although outside the airline industry for most. None that I know of have lost their homes and all that had spouses before are still with their spouses.

I wouldn't be surprised to find some instances of all of the above, but to make a blanket statement like the above is just plain off the wall.

I've known you for eight years now and, in my opinion, your rational side has been progressively losing the battle to hatred and other negative emotions. I previously had a lot of respect for you when you were working for management in JFK and even when we trained together for our downgrades to the MD80.

You have so much positive energy inside of you. I'm sorry you have chosen to release the negative energy in this way.

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