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» Smilin' Jack   » Specific Airline Discussions   » TWA   » Remember The Year Before The Merger? (Page 3)

 
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Author Topic: Remember The Year Before The Merger?
Pablo Lewin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gumby:[/qb]
to let you know, I must be in the minority based on what you seem to know. I wouldn't sign now or ever. My number is currently 12302. What would it have been if we had signed? I believe around 12302. As for protected captains, apparently you haven't noticed lately, the number of times the "line in the sand" has washed away (the no-furlough point). By the way, was that a threat towards Clary? It sure seemed like it to me, so maybe you should be concerned with AA policy on harassment as posted by Captain Morey, today.

Enjoy the LA sun but don't spend too much time out in it because it can be harmful in the long term or so I've read.

John Gombar
TWA #883 [/QB]

Gumby

You are the minority, Clary was the name in the profile, I doubt it is Mike Clary but another individual and it wasn't a threat, it is a fact.

I stand by what I said,and everybody knows it (except for you and a couple of diehards on this and the "other" board).

We would have been better off with a tri-partite agreement and no amount of cute simple postings from you will ever change that fact.

Pablo Lewin

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chrispy
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Sorry Dave,

I guess when your job/profession is raped and pileaged, it brings the bad side out in people.

What makes matters worse, is the criminal element cheerfully proclaims, just be lucky we saved your job and that you have the priviledge to be furloughed from American.

Realistically, and with no disrespect Dave, the rape of your job will result in you retiring from this job on furlough. You will never set foot in an American cockpit again, ever. Someone with 2 years of seniority has secured your seat based in NY/STL.

What they did was wrong, on a profesional and personal basis.

Hard to just get over it, like has been suggested to me by the NAAtives.

Sounds like you're doing great. I can't say the same.

Take care..best health to you,

c.d.

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zing
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>>Sounds like you're doing great. I can't say the same.<<

As I say to my teenage daughter nearly every day when she has some problem or other that she thinks is going to destroy her world: how you're doing can be 99% attitude and 1% external circumstances if you just try hard enough.

Of course, I knew a year and a half ago that barring a major shake-up in the industry, I would not be in an American cockpit again. Even if I never fly for any airline -and I still have two real possibilities before I'm done- I'll make due and enjoy whatever aspect of my life I'm experiencing at the moment.

What's done is done. Do you think that even if an appellate judge remands the litigation back for trial and even if a trail judge awards arbitration, that it would make any real difference in the length of the furloughs? The most that could happen would be to have some damage settlement that would line the pockets of a few.

Sorry. There I go again, giving you more reasons to keep pouring out negativity.

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Gumby
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Pablo,

Why don't we start a poll of the "furloughed" TWA pilots as to whether they, knowing what they now know, would have voted for APA offer?

I'll start: NO.

Remember, only the furloughed.

Gumby

P.S. Saw your post on C&R concerning wing tip lights. Do you really worry about hard landings getting a light? [Wink]

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Jeff I.
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<>
[/QB][/QUOTE]

I realize there are plenty of friviolous lawsuits. The ones on the docket and possibly in the workings that attempt to redress legitimate grievances are not what I would characterize as frivilous. Far from it.

Flawed as they might seem at times, thank God we do have a court system that will hear legitimate grievances and, if warranted, seek to redress and compensate. TWA employees and shareholders have the right to voice their complaints and, in my opinion, most or all of the principals behind the AA takeover of TWA should have their days in court under oath. It is long overdue.

Jeff I.

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L1011Ret
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Amen Jeff, they need their day in court.
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Pablo Lewin
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Gumby

The light policy along with a chart on wing and pitch angles that will make the lights contact the runway belongs to AA...not me, I was merely reporting.

As far as the polls, I don't have to, I already get dozens of unsolicited mails from furloughed individuals who could have been working as Captains att AA and now agree that we should have negotiated instead of hanging our hats on the "Bond" Amendment (remember?, not James but Kit...).

You and I were and continued to be duped by a bunch of incompetent clueless radicals who screwed up the works for all of us and now are trying to deflect culpability by blaming others....how novel....

Pablo

quote:
Originally posted by Gumby:
Pablo,

Why don't we start a poll of the "furloughed" TWA pilots as to whether they, knowing what they now know, would have voted for APA offer?

I'll start: NO.

Remember, only the furloughed.

Gumby

P.S. Saw your post on C&R concerning wing tip lights. Do you really worry about hard landings getting a light? [Wink]



[ 03-30-2004, 13:09: Message edited by: Pablo Lewin ]

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chrispy
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Pablo,


What are you referring to when you say we should have negotiated rather than hang our hat on the Amendment.

As I remember, there was even a facilitator brought into the talks, but the APA didn't budge on their postion.

In an APA memo to it's pilots (prior to single carrier status), it states that we (the APA) has brought in a facilitator to help the TWA pilots agree to our terms, but remember in the end they don't have to agree to it, because we have the authority to (unliaterally) impose the agreement.

Shortly thereafter, Ed White made his famous quote,
Why are we screwing you guys, because we can".

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, what negotiations were you referring to.

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by chrispy:
Pablo,

As I remember, there was even a facilitator brought into the talks, but the APA didn't budge on their postion.

In an APA memo to it's pilots (prior to single carrier status), it states that we (the APA) has brought in a facilitator to help the TWA pilots agree to our terms, but remember in the end they don't have to agree to it, because we have the authority to (unliaterally) impose the agreement.

Shortly thereafter, Ed White made his famous quote,
Why are we screwing you guys, because we can".

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, what negotiations were you referring to.

Chris-

Your inaccurate conclusions and suggested time relationship to the actual negotiations shows you either know very little or whomever is providing you information knows very little.

A review of the APA contract will clearly conclude the APA had/has 100% control of their seniority list and that fully included(s) control of any AA purchase of another carrier and where that acquired carriers pilots were placed/integrated. This "control" was in full affect with the RENO staple which WAS fully upheld through the litigation process. (If you choose, you can liken APA's control to the "wrap a round agreement" provided the TWA pilots in Jan of 1986.)

The above can be verified by reading the APA CBA and further clarified by reading the "TWALLC Transition Agreement" signed by AA & APA in July 2001.

Your "accusations" that the APA never changed their integration ratios, the starting point for integration or/and the number of TW pilots to be integrated before/after June 10, 2001 is ABSOLUTELY wrong!!

More than once I was asked to provide integration analysis BASED on different integration values during the merger NEGOTIATIONS.. Perhaps you could tell me what part you contributed to the process or provide ANY documentation to support YOUR claims?

Rather than attempt to take this as some PERSONAL attack at you, perhaps you could consider it as a simple request to, again, "back up" your accusations. If what you say is true, it should be a simple process to provide quotes from documents, meetings etc..

Chris (and others), There is more than enough FACTUAL circumstances that CAN BE verified. Your choice to discredit yourselves and the ongoing "process" by making so many false and personal claims is doing nothing for the very cause you want pursued.

For the record...

I am in FULL AGREEMENT the TWA employees should have been entitled to arbitration or in the absence of, a litigation process (ESPECIALLY the TWA FA's). Litigation is in process for both pilots & FA's. Note: The TWA/AA IAM/TWU ramp/maintenance did go through arbitration.

Specific to the comments of FO Dusse and a very small number of other individual pilots.. It is my opinion they cause considerable disservice to those whom are attempting to seek improvements through the litigation process.

That being.. IMO, All credibility and support is lost when these individuals incessantly do nothing more than make false unsubstantiated claims and continuously make personal attacks of EVERY FELLOW airline employee on the simple basis that they were either collecting an AA pay check or are not willing to step in line behind what are, a minority of TWA pilots who have made huge huge mistakes and are now unwilling to accept responsibility for the long-term harm that HAS occurred to so many of the TWA pilots that COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED.

Bob H

[ 03-30-2004, 18:56: Message edited by: Bob H ]

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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by Gumby:
Why don't we start a poll of the "furloughed" TWA pilots as to whether they, knowing what they now know, would have voted for APA offer?

I'll start: NO.

I second the motion from brother Gumby.

My Vote: HELL @#*&!#*# NO!!! Not now, not EVER.

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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by Pablo Lewin:
And when I find the culprit of those libelous comments on this board and private threats I will PROSECUTE IT TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.

PS I KNOW FOR A FACT that 3 years after the fact the majority of TWA pilots knowing what we know today would have signed in a heartbeat...3 years too late though.

Pablo, what "libelous comments" are you refering to?

Knowing what I now know, Pablo, I'd still tell AA/APA to go #@$*&@# themselves. No way I'd ever sign, no matter what ALPA promised me.

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Pablo Lewin
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quote:
Originally posted by chrispy:
Pablo,


What are you referring to when you say we should have negotiated rather than hang our hat on the Amendment.

Chris

Just like Ed and whomever made himself pass for Mike Clary on this board and who then proceeded to libel me and threaten me and another individual privately....(not to mention the TWAPRAVDA.COM libel where they assert that I am a Psycho.......:-).You won't care what I say here, what evidence I provide you with,and the facts that you see happening around you, there will never be ANY convincing some of you of how badly we screwed up as a group of pilots and how childishly we conducted ourselves when faced with the worst integration in the history of 2 major airlines (Perhaps Captain Chamberlain can give us here some of the psychological reasons for all of OUR behaviors in an unbiased and dispassionate fashion without the fear of reprisal from the crowd at TWAPRAVDA.COM??) :-).

1) From the beginning Bud Bensel setup the AWRF to sue ALPA...before we even started negotiations with the APA, when ALPA got a wind of it their support dwindled down to the minimum necessary to avert a lawsuit ...strike one

2)When Mike Day took over from Bensel he came to us stating that Ed White was interested in 500 to 700 staples and Day said he could get us that...Ted Case,Jim Arthur and Hollander among others said no way to that..it was below their bottom line....Matt Comlish a 2000 hire had everybody convinced that Congress and Bush were going to give us date of hire......Strike two..

3)We completely blew off our merger counsel Roland Wilder with over 30 years of experience in mergers and several cases in front of the Supreme court..even after the dastardly attacks of 911 when the game changed to one of survival for all the airlines in the world we decided that a lawsuit without ANY discernible LEGAL basis was the best way to go thus we decided to leave a tri-partite agreement and a BUNCH of other stuff behind (actually after 911 being a party of an agreement would have been the most important element of all)..we decided not to attend negotiating meetings against the direct advise of Merger Counsel, etc,etc,etc....STRIKE THREE ...OUT.


I am not even going go to what we left behind because frankly some of you guys are so blinded with rage and emotions you simply are not ready to comprehend what we left behind...you have been duped so thoroughly by the Hollander MEC that no amount of facts and evidence will suffice until some of you guys reach your 80's.

You don't want me to go on...suffice it to say that we could have had SEVERAL hundred more former TWA Captains flying for American now, bases on the Coasts with a IMPENETRABLE St.Louis base, B-737 flying and I dare say a marginally better seniority number had we been able to recognize the deal from the VERY beginning.

We didn't and we are and will always be where we are...the APA's responsibility was to screw us, OUR RESPONSIBILITY WAS TO DEFEND OURSELVES RESPONSIBLY WHEN FACED BY OVERWHELMING ODDS...the APA succeeded and we failed miserably.

We are at least 25% guilty of our demise and no emoting is ever going to change that fact.

Now I have been holding back until now :-), I suggest that if you really want me to "spill the beans" we take this back to the private side of the TWA side....there's no real need for the public at large to see our dirty linen.

Pablo Lewin

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HAWKMAN
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Pablo,

Do you feel better now? Sometimes when you get to unload. . .things just seem a bit less stressful. Hopefully, that is the case for you.

Now, I'm really taking a chance here answering this post. Specifically because of all the threats going on around here of turning in everyone.

Hopefully, we can keep these messages on target for the issues at hand and keep them from the level of reaching personal insults. Let's give it a try, shall we?

Ok, onto your missive. My answer to your claims is. . . SO WHAT !?

Pablo, I'm not going to get into a debate regarding who was at what meeting with Roland, or what was or was not left on the table. You can stand around and debate that all day long. That is all meaningless now.

The ONLY thing that has any meaning RIGHT NOW is our attempt to litigate this matter. Speaking of which, have you read the posted legal documents that outline our case on www.twapaf.com ?

Being caught up in history and having an apparent compulsion to prove you were right about signing does nothing positive to AFFECT OUR REALITY NOW. Yes, the reality that is partially outlined in the above referenced documents. All you're apparently doing is tantamount to efforts that seem to work AGAINST our litigation.

OK, so you may not think the litigation will succeed. I respect that opinion. But why don't you wait until after it's all said and done before you do things that will seem to HARM and work AGAINST us?

Pablo, let's face our REALITY NOW. . .SuppCC will not change anything for the better. The APA is not going to change anything for the better. Even AAL or ALPA will not change anything for the better.

The ONLY chance we have to change anything, right here, right now is the litigation. At least give those willing to fight this out a chance without doing harm.

As to whether you are right or wrong about signing. . . I don't buy off on your mail claims about all these furloughed guys agreeing with you. My opinion is still as I have stated before.

History will prove you right or wrong. . .we just haven't got there yet. Until we have won or lost our ONLY chance at litigation, my jury is still out.

In the mean time, why don't you at least let us fight this battle. We are willing. And, it is the ONLY battle that we have left to fight.

HAWKMAN

[ 03-31-2004, 03:48: Message edited by: HAWKMAN ]

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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by Pablo Lewin:
Just like Ed and whomever made himself pass for Mike Clary on this board and who then proceeded to libel me and threaten me and another individual privately....(not to mention the TWAPRAVDA.COM libel where they assert that I am a Psycho.......:-).

1) From the beginning Bud Bensel setup the AWRF to sue ALPA...before we even started negotiations with the APA, when ALPA got a wind of it their support dwindled down to the minimum necessary to avert a lawsuit ...strike one

2)When Mike Day took over from Bensel he came to us stating that Ed White was interested in 500 to 700 staples and Day said he could get us that...Ted Case,Jim Arthur and Hollander among others said no way to that..it was below their bottom line....Matt Comlish a 2000 hire had everybody convinced that Congress and Bush were going to give us date of hire......Strike two..

3)We completely blew off our merger counsel Roland Wilder with over 30 years of experience in mergers and several cases in front of the Supreme court

Pablo, what does Mike Clary have to do with my previous post? I was rebutting one of your points, very simply. Also, I used to see Clary post on TWAPilots.com, but not in awhile.

About Comlish, I think you'll find he was '98 hire, not '00.

About your numbered points:

(1) occured because Bensel was aware ALPA was preparing to sell us out and cut a deal with AA/APA, therefore he had the foresight to get the legal ball rolling since ALPA would'nt represent us. Purely a defensive move.

(2) Mike Day said Ed White would only push for 500-700 staples? When did that happen? Never heard about that deal, and since you were on the MEC, why did'nt you tell us about it? I am 100% positive APA had no intention of changing the staple of 60% (1300 pilots) after AA and ALPA agreed to tacitly approve (or not object to) their compilation of the new seniority list.

(3) We blew off our merger counsel because he was working for ALPA, not US, Pablo. Once your own legal team starts working against you, it's time to find a new legal team. Wilder did'nt have our best interests at heart.

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Pablo Lewin
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Hawkman

First you say and I quote

"Do you feel better now? Sometimes when you get to unload. . .things just seem a bit less stressful. Hopefully, that is the case for you."


Then you say and I quote:

"Hopefully, we can keep these messages on target for the issues at hand and keep them from the level of reaching personal insults. Let's give it a try, shall we?"


Pablo says: from the get go you have already failed miserably at keeping it from becoming personal when you continue to propagate the libel that I am excitable and that I somehow "rant" when the opposite is exactly the case and that's exactly why some of you treat me as your number one enemy. You know that I won't let this go, not now not in 20 years..

Now onto the substance of your message

You said and I quote:

"Pablo, I'm not going to get into a debate regarding who was at what meeting with Roland, or what was or was not left on the table. You can stand around and debate that all day long. That is all meaningless now."

Pablo says:

There's no debate, I was there throughout the whole process, you were not ...we screwed up by not signing and the furlough today of more former TWA Captains it's a continuous reminder of how badly we did.

You said and I quote:

"The ONLY thing that has any meaning RIGHT NOW is our attempt to litigate this matter. Speaking of which, have you read the posted legal documents that outline our case on www.twapaf.com ?"

Pablo says:

I have read it and the legal basis being used is What?...oh yes it's based on discovery in other words paraphrasing "If we ask long enough we'll find that we were screwed by someone, because obviously it was not our negligence, it's never our fault because we are always right thus we are sure to find someone to blame this on"

You said and I quote:

"Being caught up in history and having an apparent compulsion to prove you were right about signing does nothing positive to AFFECT OUR REALITY NOW. Yes, the reality that is partially outlined in the above referenced documents. All you're apparently doing is tantamount to efforts that seem to work AGAINST our litigation.

OK, so you may not think the litigation will succeed. I respect that opinion. But why don't you wait until after it's all said and done before you do things that will seem to HARM and work AGAINST us?"

Pablo says:

Gary there's NOTHING I have done that will screw up our chances for litigation because everything that I have posted thus far is on the record and all 3 parties know about it, besides I have yet to see the legal basis under which we are suing.(plenty of moral basis though).

Roland Wilder couldn't find any, I surmise Boise decided that he couldn't find any...I read the brief and I couldn't find any...where's the beef?.

I tell you where the beef is, the past MEC knows full well they screwed up and this my friend is their exit strategy:

1)Put on a good show

2)Blame somebody other than themselves when they lose

3)Stress the fact that somebody must be impeding the fight and that's why we are losing...hmmm who could it be...oh wait! that Pablo guy won't let this go! it must be him then...let's get him!


You said and I quote:

"In the mean time, why don't you at least let us fight this battle. We are willing. And, it is the ONLY battle that we have left to fight.

HAWKMAN "

Pablo says:

Where do you have some evidence of the above mentioned piece of libel? I thought you were going to keep it out of the realm of the personal?.

Tell me how can a single individual whose only actions up until now were to expose a level of ineptitude on the part of the last TWA MEC and the almost criminal negligence of some of its leaders be responsible for "not letting you fight the battle?".

Do me a favor whether you win or you lose for once in your political lives take responsibility for your actions and stop blaming everybody else for the actions and results your friends brought on all the former TWA pilots.


Pablo Lewin

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Pablo Lewin
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"about Comlish, I think you'll find he was '98 hire, not '00."

I'll split it with you OK, he was a 29-Apr-1999 hire

Pablo

PS Your other points are so devoid of facts I won't bother addressing them anymore, suffice it to say you can go back and read 3 Years worth my postings and find the answers there... of course you can always go to TWAPRAVDA.COM and emote....

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HAWKMAN
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Pablo,

You're response speaks volumes regarding why you have chosen the path that you have. Apparently, "libel," is your new buzz word when you have no real, legitimate response to offer.

Pablo, as I now have new insight into your motives, I will end here with an apology for making any attempt towards communicating and having a reasonable dialogue with you.

HAWKMAN

[ 03-31-2004, 13:35: Message edited by: HAWKMAN ]

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Pablo Lewin
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quote:
Originally posted by HAWKMAN:
Pablo,

You're response speaks volumes regarding why you have chosen the path that you have. Apparently, "libel," is your new buzz word when you have no real, legitimate response to offer.

Pablo, as I now have new insight into your motives, I will end here with an apology for making any attempt towards communicating and having a reasonable dialogue with you.

HAWKMAN

Gary Hawk

li·bel (li'b?l)
n.

A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.
The act of presenting such material to the public.

Libel is not a "buzzword" at least not to me,I have been FALSELY accussed on some boards of everything from being "One of the Fab 5" (paraphrased), to consorting with the APA to staple TWA pilots, to being a dirty traitor, to being "excitable" and having major psychological problems and now by you of fighting "against" the lawsuit....?????

I did the best I could as an MEC rep against incredible adverse odds which included an airline near it's third Bankruptcy, the IAM (need I say more?),Carl Icahn and Karabu,the APA and ITS radicals, AA and its management...The attacks of 911 and finally a coward and clueles TWA MEC spearheaded by a bumbling Chairman who in the end was Consorting with the IAM (Sherry Cooper) and the controlling segment of the MEC hell bent on mindless self destruction for the sake of "show business"

Libel is not a buzzword...not to me.

We all screwed up and there's enough blame to go around nobody is exempt,some more than others.

At least I admit my errors and the biggest one I have made was to have have sought and accepted a post in the Union the during the worst times in the History of the TWA pilots...one thing I am proud of though is my conduct during those times, I worked hard, told the truth to anyone that cared to hear it (such as my Council 4 that's why they didn't play along with Hollander and the rest and didn't recall me...). and most importantly I treated and treat the TWA pilot like intelligent adults.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, a concept to your friends Gary but a way of life for me.

Pablo Lewin

[ 03-31-2004, 15:38: Message edited by: Pablo Lewin ]

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L1011Ret
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I will add a few comments. First, until today I had been unaware of Pablo's position although I am aware there are negative feelings about his worldview. He obviously has a different view on what happened. An interesting point of view at that. You can take snapshots of different events occurring in your life and people will have different interpretations of the meaning of those events and the role those events played in future happenings. As someone who investigates how mentally ill people became that way, a major issue in childhood development is of course the child's interaction with parents and siblings. If you look closely, you find that the parents were viewed by the child as unavailable for nurture, not able to understand and address the child's needs in an appropriate fashion, and in some cases were over controlling, insisted the child be perfect or other forms of failure to respond to the child. Bottom line is that the child was helpless to do anything about its environment, doesn't trust authority figures when they are needed, grows up feeling hopeless about the future and feels powerless to change things in his/her life. I parallel that to the TWA/ALPA/AA/APA/APFA story.
1. My own view is that the TWA pilots were grossly disadvantaged from the beginning. Starting from the beginning with the give up of some scope language, the pilots and F/As were put at the mercy of whatever APA and APFA might dream up. Since there was no language to protect them nor any meaningful process guaranteed, the party with the most horsepower, APA, AA and APFA was bound to have the upper hand. I include APFA because my spouse is a senior furloughed TWA F/A and as they say, I have a stake in that horse race. The statement, "we screwed you because we could" is the same type thinking put forth by child molesters. They got away with it because they could. To me that is the real bottom line. They got away with something they knew was unfair because they had the power to enforce their unfairness. That is it in a nutshell.
2. Given that the TWA pilots and F/As were put into the position of being nearly helpless children, at least vis-à-vis seniority issues, and that they had for all practical purposes little to no voice in what was happening to them (the APFA refused to even speak to IAM representatives), I do not find it unusual that the pilots and F/As find themselves so very angry about what transpired.
3. I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but the outcome seemed preordained or nearly so, given the past behavior of AA/APA/APFA. If I can revert to my childhood analogy, they were abusive parents. You go back to Reno and then to the USAir people possibly coming to AA and how in the case of USAir, a few would be fit in and the rest stapled, the pattern repeats itself. And lest we forget, AA bought the TWA LHR routes with no crews that eventuated in my leaving TWA. This suggests to me that no matter who did what on behalf of the TWA pilots or F/As, only very small improvements in the outcome were possible.
4. I remember exchanging quite a few e-mails with John Rohlfing asking the question, "where is ALPA?" We never came up with an answer for each other. I remember thinking, "that is the only horsepower they (TWA pilots) have." Back to my childhood analogy, if some benevolent parent, read ALPA, does not come along these kids will continue to be abused.
5. Now we are several years down the road. Many pilots continue to remain very angry with the parents (AA and APA) and refuse to have anything to do with them, at least APA. Some have taken another tack and decided to make the best out of a horrible situation by joining APA and representing the TWA pilots best they can. The TWA pilot family is fragmented at this point and stuck in the untenable position of feeling some are stupid because they are not moving on while the other subgroup remains firmly opposed to moving on and hanging onto their rage. From my professional point of view, for health reasons, I believe moving on is the best course. But some will and some will not. It is each individual's decisions to wrestle with their demons on their own timeline.
6. As in the case of all emotional injury, blame has to be assessed. There is enough for everybody. ALPA did not help, blame them. APA is full of hard line a**holes who screwed us, blame them. AA stood by as a sort of co-conspirator, blame them. Some members of the TWA MEC made some judgmental errors, blame them. There is enough blame for everybody to last a lifetime and it probably will.
7. The siblings in the TWA pilot family are expected to fight among themselves as siblings in angry families always do. If you look at family roles, Pablo is a sort of scapegoat for the family anger. Do not feel alone Pablo, there is plenty of displaced anger to go around. Bob and Bud and others in the family who took up different roles are likely targets too.
8. I truly believe that individual TWA pilots could not derail the process that occurred. The process was a large group process at the MEC level with lots of voices being heard. Although pilots like Pablo and others take a different view, and may have thought that a different outcome was possible had different actions been taken, the majority view held sway. Could the outcome have been different depending on what TWAers did? If you listen to APA, the answer is pretty clearly no.
9. Last but not least. As a licensed New York State psychologist, I cannot find much that is helpful to anyone's mental health in ANY manner for all the name calling and subtle threats. Does it change any outcome? Does it help to vent this way? The answer in both cases is clearly no. Rehearsal of anger just makes you angrier.
10. Am I sticking up for Pablo? It looks like Pablo can take of himself. No need. But I really do think a lot of this anger directed at some TWA pilots is really misguided. Some posters could benefit from a little self reflection that would help them own their anger and put it to work in more adaptive ways.

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Irish
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Thank you, Bill. As as party disinterested except for my distress at what has happened to my beloved TWA family, I hope both sides recognize even a little of the sanity you have interjected here. Come on guys! Read, take a deep breath and re-read Bill's post.

Paul

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B-757-200
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quote:
Originally posted by Pablo Lewin:
Your other points are so devoid of facts I won't bother addressing them anymore, suffice it to say you can go back and read 3 Years worth my postings and find the answers there... of course you can always go to TWAPRAVDA.COM and emote....

Pablo, why don't YOU go to TWAPilots.com? I know you might feel as if both barrels are pointed at you, but you could at least defend yourself. It would'nt be sop one-sided; you could voice your perspective.

BTW, I have read your posts, and I don't necessarily agree with them, but I know your side of the story.

Lastly, referring to Pliske as 'Prickse' cracked me up! [Big Grin]

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Goodyear_26
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The heading of this particular MB is TWA, and hopefully will yield information and stories pertinent to the airline which most of us cared for.

Now is has apparently become a forum for disgruntled pilots. Don't get me wrong, I sympathise completely with your situation,but take it to TWA Pilots page and leave this one for those of us who are more interested in the greatness of TWA and reminiscing about the GOOD old times, not Red versus Green and all that crap!

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HAWKMAN
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Frank,

You retired too early. . .we ARE talking about the good old times!


HAWKMAN

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chrispy
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Bob,

Rather than attempt to take this as some PERSONAL attack at you, perhaps you could consider it as a simple request to, again, "back up" your accusations. If what you say is true, it should be a simple process to provide quotes from documents, meetings etc

Facilitator invited in - JFK LEC meeting June 2001

Memo posted to APA members saying that in the end they (the TWA pilots) don't have to agree to our integration. Posted HNL Ops-written by LAX Lec chairman-don't remember the date, sorry Bob.

Ed White telling us we're screwing you, because we can- STL APA meeting-sorry Bob again, I didn't write down the date in my diary...but ask around all the pilots that are still on the property-he did say it.

One thing I learned in grad school, there are people that are book smart, then there are people that are street smart. I'm glad you have such a grasp on numbers, but I think you kinda outta touch with what's really going on here. You constantly hammer my credibility-but really-does anyone listen to you, Bob.

It seems you're personal attacks on me are to quell the complaints and greivances I have against our integration and meant to tell everyone, hey the APA saved us. For you, yes Bob, it did. You will retire from an airline, and good on you. All issues aside, I am glad for you. For the other 66% or 75% or whatever calculus third derivative, square root forumula you want to contend, just to make a fight and insight an argument, we've have lost - and in some cases, lost it all.

Irrepairable harm was done to our careers, Capt Herbst. I know you were lucky to avoid the shrapenel...almost everyone else didn't. Need me to provide you a notarized document of that, Bob or will you take my word on it.

Sorry the APA Integration contract doesn't have a clause that I can quote that says we're going to screw you...but I can say that it does say that Supp CC was crafted to fully realize my career expectations. Enjoy retirement Bob, you earned it and I didn't. Neither did the other 1300 or so pilots.


Don't worry my furlough will be short-sorry..I don't have that in writing either.

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zing
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>>Facilitator invited in - JFK LEC meeting June 2001<<

To what are you refering? There was no facilitator of any kind at the June 7, 2001 JFK Council 2 meeting.

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Goodyear_26
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Can't some of you guys read?? TWA Pilots board is for all your griping about MEC, APA, ALPA, Red versus Green, ad nauseum! Please leave this particular board for what it was intended for. Am I right Jack?

As for you Hawkman, in the nicest way I would like to say, if you missed the Howard Hughes days, the transition from props to jets, these were the good old days. The airline business was still relatively young, full of characters like Trippe, Maytag, Patterson and more than I can remember on short notice. (At my age I need a lot of notice!!)

I wouldn't state this as being the height of my career with TWA but will never forget one LAX early AM being on the greasy, oily wing of a Connie, fueling and oiling the bird, while the early morning fog and dew made the wing surface like ice, and Hughes walking across the ramp with a small group and taking a 1649 I had just fueled for the morning JFK (then IDL) flight for a jaunt to Toronto.

When I refer to the good old days I guess I mean anecdotes like this. I have so many of them.

But I know it's futile to complain, so tell me what did Pablo say then??!!

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Irish
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Frank,

I also fondly remember walking the wing of a Connie, screwdriver held like a dagger, ready to plunge it into skin to halt a fall off a slippery wing. Boy those were, in retrospect, wonderful days.

Paul

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chrispy
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To what are you refering?

Part of union business that day was the mentioning that APA/TWA negotiations would include the use of a facilitator. There was no reason, that our LEC meeting would need a facilitator.

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flyguybos
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do you homework. TWA had no cash left it is very much a fact. do your homework. The IAM signed away all rights to seniority and itWAS NOT A MERGER AT ALL. DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
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L1011Ret
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Strange, APFA considered it a merger. Labor groups did not sign away scope provisions. Lastly, TWA had about $153 million at the time of purchase with a $100 million note due in a few days. That note could have been easily rolled over. All that aside, TWA's financial position was less than healthy.
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Subsonic Transport
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Some time ago a friend of mine gave me several issues of AVIATION WEEK & Space Technology from a while back. While reading this thread I thought I would post here some excerpts from various articles. The following are from the February 5, 2001 issue.

Correspondence: Capt. Pete Brady- Pres. American Independent Cockpit Alliance…

“….The effects of competition and market forces are relatively inconsequential in this protracted state of financial debilitation…financier Carl Icahn intends to sue American to preserve his lucrative profits arrangements with TWA…..lucrative profits?”

“How does one person derive not reasonable but lucrative profits from a situation that is otherwise so bleak for the airline?...right to sell millions of dollars worth of tickets at steep discounts…known as Karabu deal.”

“The airline could make a profit, but the Karabu deal perpetuates the insolvency. Hanging in the balance are 20,000 emplyees who go to work thinking that today might be their last at TWA. And Icahn wants to preserve the arrangement.”
--------------------------------------------------

Judges Ruling…..Robert w. Moorman

“…antitrust division and a possible lawsuit by former Trans World Airlines owner Carl Icahn could delay…acquisition…delay would only slow the inevitable…[Justice Dept] rejected objections by Continental, Northwest and Icahn…”

“…other factors in Americans favor. A pledge by American to preserve at least 17,000 jobs at TWA, and keeping the airline essentially intact….generated widespread support from political leaders and TWA’s unions.”

“Another way of looking at this is that American is saving 17,000 voters from the State of Missouri, said…Merrill Lynch”

“Northwest stated it would pay around $200 million for TWA’s 26% share in Worldspan…while Continental offered up to $400 million for TWA’s slots, gates and facilities at LGA, ORD and DCA airports.”

“…TWA and American were ecstatic about the courts ruling. ‘This is a great win for TWA,’ said President/CEO William E. Compton. ‘This ruling removes a great deal of uncertainty….This winter we ran out of time’…confronted ‘staggering increases in the price of jet fuel.’ Rather than liquidate the airline’s assets, TWA sought a merger or partnership with several U.S. airlines to keep TWA flying, he said. But nearly every rival “recognized that they would benefit from TWA’s demise.”

“…American will walk away if the bankruptcy court allows the continuation of the ticket-related contract between TWA and financier Icahn, sources…indicated…The arrangement has been very lucrative for Icahn, but TWA ‘can’t get a good yield for its other tickets because, in many instances, the airline has to match those low-fare tickets of Icahns, said Mike Boyd.”
“Although Continental and Northwest have proposed buying key assets of TWA and Icahn….offered to lend TWA money….American is the only bidder that has made a formal offer to acquire the carrier.”

“If American succeeds…won’t be first time…carrier moved to STL…early 1980’s American abandoned plans to develop a mini-hub there in the face of TWA’s superior strength.’

“ ‘Pursuing STL as another hub makes a lot of sense, given the situation in Chicago as the No. 2 player’, concluded Merril [Lynch’s] Lineberg. ‘The acquisition of TWA also will bolster American’s network. Especially in the Midwest.’”

--------------------------------------------------
Restructured Economy-Paul Mann

“A ‘Big Three’ also will give labor immense power to disrupt service, McCain warned. ‘If labor disruptions occur at a consolidated United or American, the rest of the system will not be able to absorb the displaced passengers, and the system will grind to a halt.’’

“Yet for TWA, time is of the essence….’Several of our competitors are now suddenly saying, out of an apparent desire to avoid the enhancement of American, that TWA could be maintained as a stand-alone enterprise or its assets parceled out among the various carriers to protect the interest of the creditors….Compton told McCains committee.”

“…Compton testified, when TWA’s latest financial crises struck this winter, ‘we went knocking on doors to find a solution-there is not an airline of any size in America that we did not approach…No one was interested in TWA as a going concern. In my view, most recognized that they would benefit from TWA’s demise and they were willing, at best, to stand back and watch it happen.’”

“Sen. Christopher S. Bond (R-Mo.), whose state is home to TWA, endorsed the American acquisition plan. ‘It will keep TWA flying in the short-term, protect almost all of the 20,000 jobs, maintain the STL hub, maintain the Kansas City overhaul base and maintain a competitive airline presence in STL into the future.’”

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mioguido
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the sad part is that many believed the *prepared statements* issued by TWA and American. all one had to do is look at the person pulling the strings over at American...that person was Carty. need i say anymore? [Mad]

[ 02-28-2005, 23:00: Message edited by: mioguido ]

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donuway
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That's the first I ever saw of an offer for TWA's share of worldspan????

Did TWA "own" other gates at ORD besides 8 and 10, the two that they operated out of, that could have been sold? Did they still have any rights at Midway?

200 + 400 is slightly under what AA gave for the whole airline, if I remember right? Of course what AA actually spent is probably a vague figure.

Don

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MrMarky
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Yeah Don, I vaguely recall Northwest having an interest in the Worldspan share. The issue was that it was a partnership between TWA, NW and DL and nobody could sell their share unless the other two partners agreed. After the TWA Worldspan share ceded to AA I guess both DL and NW decided they would rather buy it than have AA as a partner. This of course must have been AA's strategy all along, as they didn't need it and it brought in the bulk of the cash they laid out to buy TWA to begin with.

As for the TWA gates at ORD, as far as I know, they were leased from NW. I don't know of any assets that TWA had at ORD. They had sold slots there and moved to Midway and then played hell trying to get back into ORD, or at least that's how I remember it. I think TWA had a big hangar at ORD years ago, but don't know what happened to it. Maybe Icahn sold it to AA along with the LHR routes?

I'm not sure they needed any "rights" at Midway. It's not a slot controlled airport so anyone can go in there and start flying as long as they can get gates, to the best of my knowledge.

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Kenneth
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Hi all,

My memory has been bad lately, does anyone remember where TWA operated at ORD (pre-Carl)?

I was sure there was an entire concourse, but I can't remember which one.

Unfortunately I didn't travel much in my youth, I just spent lots of time at Lambert watching the planes take off and land; my aunt would take me up there often, back when I was small enough to barely see over the ledge. Occasionally I got to step on a parked plane and peek in the cockpit; I remember touring a brand new Ozark DC-9 that was rolled out for their anniversary celebration. My first flight to ORD was a TWA 747 in the late 80's (in college), but I just can't remember where we landed!

[Smile] Ken

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Kirkpatrick
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quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth:
Hi all,

My memory has been bad lately, does anyone remember where TWA operated at ORD (pre-Carl)?

I was sure there was an entire concourse, but I can't remember which one.

I seem to remember it being the "G" concourse. We had operations down below and a large "hostess lounge" on the concourse as well.

As the sole survivor of the first class of male FA's TWA hired, I recall being thrown out of the hostess lounge that first summer of '72. I spent my four hours of waiting time at a gate watching airplanes take off and land.

MK

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757man
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The concourse was G concouurse and we had the whole thing. now the AA feeder is in that concourse. We also had a hangar and complete crew base there in the 70s. it slowly died in the 80s.. it I looking fine today. Flew there last week. Came into "h" On the mainline and got the regional to Lacrosse wisconsin at "G'
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upsilon
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The Ambassador Club was in an imposing site on the second floor up above the head of the G Concourse which is located between T2 and T3.

I recall using a "shortcut" and getting off the car rental bus at T2 (instead of T3 where the TWA counters were located) and going directly to the Club.

Several years ago I attended a meeting at the old Club venue and found it was a for-hire small business meeting facility. I have glanced up there recently when using G on AA, but was not sure for what it was being used.

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Irish
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Yes, indeedy, TWA occupied the "G" concourse, with the exception of gate 1 (Air Canada) and flight ops was located underneath gate 5. I remember, as though it were yesterday, the double row of recliners that stretched from one side of the concourse to the other in the pilot's lounge.

When taxiing a Connie in for parking at gate 2 the engineer had to shut down the number one engine, and motor one prop blade to the 6 o'clock position, to avoid the possibility of the prop striking the low concrete wall protecting the gate area from vehicle traffic.

TWA based Connies and Convair 880's at ORD when I hired on in '65, Jack Robertson was the GMF and Lyle Huntly the F/E manager. When the Connies were retired in '67 they were replaced at ORD by DC-9's.

I was temporarily assigned to MKC for one month F/Eing the Connie, then scheduled for DC-9 F/O school. On the first day of class I was told, with several others, to move to the 707 F/O class starting next door as we had just been awarded JFK Int'l F/O bids. Seventeen years later I got my first captain bid, the MD-80 in STL.

Thanks for stimulating the memories, Ken.

Paul

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Dick Nicklas
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quote:
Originally posted by Irish:
Yes, indeedy, TWA occupied the "G" concourse, with the exception of gate 1 (Air Canada) and flight ops was located underneath gate 5. I remember, as though it were yesterday, the double row of recliners that stretched from one side of the concourse to the other in the pilot's lounge.

When taxiing a Connie in for parking at gate 2 the engineer had to shut down the number one engine, and motor one prop blade to the 6 o'clock position, to avoid the possibility of the prop striking the low concrete wall protecting the gate area from vehicle traffic.

TWA based Connies and Convair 880's at ORD when I hired on in '65, Jack Robertson was the GMF and Lyle Huntly the F/E manager. When the Connies were retired in '67 they were replaced at ORD by DC-9's.

I was temporarily assigned to MKC for one month F/Eing the Connie, then scheduled for DC-9 F/O school. On the first day of class I was told, with several others, to move to the 707 F/O class starting next door as we had just been awarded JFK Int'l F/O bids. Seventeen years later I got my first captain bid, the MD-80 in STL.

Thanks for stimulating the memories, Ken.

Paul


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Dick Nicklas
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AND WHO WILL EVER FORGET THE HUNDREDS OF "NO,NO"
COMMENTS WRITTEN SO PAINSTAKENLY IN THE TILE GROUT ON THE PILOTS LAV WALL? THEY WERE A LASTING TRIBUTE TO THE BOREDOM OF PRACTICE LAYOVERS AND THE MANY COMMUTERS WHO SPENT TIME THERE. REMEMBER "NO FURLOUGHS", "NO NOT TONIGHT" AND MY FAVORITE "NO NO NANETTE". PLEASE DON'T SAY YOU NEVER BOTHERED TO READ THEM, NO ONE WOULD BELIEVE YOU.

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L1011Ret
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Irish's and my memories match nearly exactly. I remember Jack and Lyle, the hanger over by the UAL hanger and one obnoxious crew bus driver (shorty?)who loved to piss crew off plus old "smokey" the 880. I lived downtown most of my stay there even though I commuted to SFO and JFK to fly 707 International. Had no need for a car as I could take the bus to the airport. Lived the high life in the near North at that time. Checked out on the L-1011 in the first class and flew it out of ORD for a while. We did simulator at Link in Binghampton, NY. Very fond memories of being based in Chicago.

[ 03-02-2005, 14:44: Message edited by: L1011Ret ]

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tomlittle1
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Yes
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