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Author
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Topic: AWA Orders 22 Airbus Planes (What if???)
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Jeff I.
Post Captain
Member # 2334
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posted
I just read this morning that America West has placed an order for 22 planes from Airbus (319's and 320's) in anticipation of increased traffic. I know I'll get my share of skeptics here but ... even with increasing distance from January 2001, it is still hard not to play the "What If" game.
So ..... what if the sham bankruptcy wasn't declared to remove Karabu obligations from AA? I'm convinced TWA would have made it to 9/11. Then what? In my opinion, they would have had about a 20% chance of surviving at that point and certain chips would have obviously needed to fall their way. First, they would have needed a government loan. Second, they would have needed to sell their share of Worldspan to keep their cash on hand in check during the quarters of red ink that all the carriers except Southwest faced following 9/11.
Acknowledging that, TWA was also in a sort of bridge position between the majors and the low-costers. TWA, in fact, had been positioning itself in this direction for a few years prior to 9/11. They were offering some semblance of full-service but were undercutting the majors on fare structure. Further, with their focus cities they were beginning to position themselves to offer more point-to-point service. All of this coupled with the codeshare agreement with AWA makes one wonder if, in fact, TWA might have had a shot (admittedly, a long shot) of surviving the carnage in the airline industry in the post-9/11 era and actually now be at a point where they were in a better position than they'd been in 15 years to start showing some stability if not some actual profits. Karabu would have ended last September as well which would have been an economic and psychological boost for them.
When one looks at AWA's position, certainly not a thriving carrier but one that appears to be solid for the foreseeable future (and also one that was in a very precarious position even in the pre-9/11 world), it is difficult to not play the "What If" game.
Any feedback from this VERY quiet board of late???
Jeff I.
[ 05-28-2004, 08:55: Message edited by: Jeff I. ]
Posts: 482 | From: New York
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mioguido
Post Captain
Member # 123
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posted
the way i see things...
if TWA had people at the top who really wanted the airline to thrive...she would be flying around today. it seems like Compton & Gitner & BOD, spent most of their energy dressing up TWA, only for the sole purpose to offload it. IMO...no true commitment from the boys upstairs was one of the major issues which contributed to the death of TWA. if AWA made it this far, then i see no reason why TWA couldn't of done the same.
[ 05-28-2004, 23:27: Message edited by: mioguido ]
Posts: 364 | From: CLE & The Space Coast
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toga
Post Captain
Member # 719
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posted
mioguido,
just a clarification. twa did not die. they were purchased as an operating entity. turn-key if you will.
Posts: 71 | From: unemployment line
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
As you know, it would be difficult to find someone who would have been happier than me to see TWA survive.
On the one hand, it is perhaps plausible that TWA could have survived through 9/11 through a combination of another Chapter 11 and the sale of its Worldspan asset.
As Mioguido has pointed out, though, it's doubtful the will was there at the senior management and BOD level to keep going.
And while the outcome for TWA since the acquisition has been nothing short of dreadful it was not unreasonable for TWA's senior management to look at an acquisition by AMR as the best possible scenario for its employees (perhaps some of the top executives received a little $$end off from AMR as well).
After all, the prospects for TWA were not exactly promising. In late 2000 the price of fuel had increased substantially. The airline had pricey leases on its new aircraft. And it had lost money every year since 1988.
Whatever mistakes were made by TWA's senior management and BOD, it would be difficult to criticize them for trying to dress up the old lady to potential suitors as the best possible option before the company crumbled apart.
As far as the comparison with AWA, it is obviously more than a little galling for any TWA aficionado to see that AWA received a Federal loan and is still out there.
I do think there are substantial differences between the two carriers, though.
On the one hand, TWA's hubs were based in NYC and STL. While NYC is still the largest city in the country, the NY metro area's population growth has been essentially flat for a few decades.
St Louis, of course, is neither a top tourist destination, nor is it growing quickly.
AWA, on the other, has hubs in Las Vegas and Phoenix, respectively the first- and second-fastest growing cities in the United States, and both have a significant tourist trade.
TWA also had outdated facilities at its hubs, and had recently severly reduced its Trans Atlantic service, further hampering the viability of its NYC hub, which had long served as its Trans Atlantic gateway.
Of course, one wonders what would have happened to TWA without Karabu. It's a fascinating question, one that will never really be answered, because the open market value of the seats that TWA gave away to Carl Icahn was so fluid. The freebie seat Icahn recived could have been sold on one day for $218 RT or $765 RT the following week...
The painful irony is that three years later, AA is slowly morphing itself into the airline TWA had become, a mid-cost "premium" carrier, with inexpensive coach tickets, a premium class that is largely provided to accomodate frequent flyers, and an accent on service and comfort.
I hope AA can pull it off and that as many of our friends from TWA are able to get back to work.
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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Jeff I.
Post Captain
Member # 2334
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posted
TWA Fan 1 -
Thanks for your comments. I agree with much of what you say.
As to the leadership of TWA management, though, I think you and I will forever be at odds on this one.
While it is certainly the role of good management to try and determine the best outcome, unfortunately, I believe TWA was saddled with a bunch of 3rd stringers. Part of this was the problem of the BOD not willing to pony up the financial incentives to attract a strong CEO. Part of it was due, in my opinion, to Gitner's self-serving interests. I don't believe Gitner was out for anyone but himself and a few cronies. Forget about doing what was best for TWA employees and customers, he was at best a "dealer" who seemed to find some amount of satisfication in the nuts and bolts of dismantling an airline. As to Compton, I've said it many times but will say it again ..... I believe he "thought" he was doing what was best for TWA employees (I know the Compton bashers will disagree with me on this one). But .... I also believe he was truly naive, way over his head as CEO and showed not nearly enough of a deep perspective to take a hard look at AA's history in acquisitions.
Beyond all of this, I agree with mioguido. TWA management didn't have the faith. Faith in the employees, tradition and the uncanny ability for TWA to pull things out of the fire. For my money, this champion (i.e., TWA) still had a few fights left. TWA management forced the champ into an early retirement.
Again .... as I stated in my thread at the beginning, the convergence of events leading up to 9/11 and certainly thereafter, left TWA in a precarious position. Lady luck would have had to have been with her and, even then, I think she would have had only about a 20% chance of surviving. But when one looks at the carnage among TWA employees, I'm not sure this was that much of a riverboat gamble ..... particularly when the suitor TWA management had thrown their bet on loaded the dice, called all the shots and had shown no history of dealing a fair deck of cards.
Jeff I.
Posts: 482 | From: New York
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
Jeff I.
For me this remains a very emotional topic. I would have loved to see TWA survive. I believe there was a tremendous value built into the airline's culture, into its great people.
If TWA had survived and thrived (similar, say, to what Continental has done after returning from the brink) I think the airline consumer would have been well served indeed.
I actually agree with you about TWA's senior management and BOD. Everything you say about Gitner is right on the mark. I think he was essentially hired to be the airline's repo man.
Regarding Compton, on the other hand, I believe he had the best interests of TWA at heart; I think he did a superb job operationally, not a meager accomplishment given the limited resources the airline was working with. But he was clearly not a seasoned corporate executive and he was obviously swimming with the sharks.
I would also add that airline management in general, with a handful of exceptions, has not exactly distinguished itself for its vision and innovation. One need only look at United, US Airways, Delta, AWA, as well as AAL, of course, and then Pan Am, Eastern, and many others in the past to see how undistinguished their leadership has been.
I suppose where I differ from you is in the area of what the expectations are in terms of performance from the senior management of large American publicly-traded corporations.
Results are measured in quarterly growth. Most BOD's will shudder at the notion of sitting through even one quarter of losses. The fact that TWA lived through 13 years of losses, with (if memory serves me right) one quarter of profitability, I believe demonstrates that, at least at the beginning of the end, the will was there to see the airline survive.
But I think the Karabu question may end up being the key. As much as we all agree that Karabu dealt the death knell for TWA, the actual impact of Karabu, as I wrote in my previous post, is not quantifiable, because of the highly fluid nature of the value of an airline seat.
The debt to Icahn was real, although it might be argued that much of it was due to Icahn taking TWA private. I've read one analysis of Karabu that points out that, had TWA repaid the debt in cash with interest, it is not inconcievable, given the depressed value of many of the coach seats on TWA in the 90s, that it would have ended up costing TWA more than the Karabu arrangement. That's not only a shocking conclusion but it raises many questions about the long-term viability of TWA.
That's pure speculation, of course, but it does bring up the possibility that TWA senior management and the BOD were aware of this kind of financial analysis and concluded the best remaining option for TWA was asset sale to the most appealing suitor.
In late 2000 I believe it was reasonable for Gitner et al to conclude that most appealing suitor was AA (I don't need to repeat that I never agreed with that, btw).
In the end, TWA's debt load was what ended up bringing it down. This is similar to many other old-line airlines that went out of business, such as Pan Am and Eastern. The debt load is actually one of the main factors that distinguishes any old-line airline from a young carrier such as JetBlue.
American Airlines now carries a hugh debt, yet it largely competes in the same marketplace as JetBlue which has much less debt. The result is that JetBlue makes profit on a significant portion of revenue that American must spend to service its debt.
The implications are not good for the long-term viability of any airline as long as the industry is organized along these lines.
The debt is accumulated as a function of the wild boom/bust cycles, and as a function of unpaid pension debt. This last is a huge issue especially when a huge carrier such as American goes through a significant contraction and thus finds itself with a smaller workforce and revenue base paying into the chronically unpaid, previous pension obligations.
Forty years ago TWA was the big player in the industry. Twenty years ago American was the innovator. Today it's, say, JetBlue. But perhaps twenty from today JetBlue, saddled with bust cycle and pension obligation debt, will find itself up against the new kid on the block, having many of the same problems the legacy carriers have today.
[ 05-30-2004, 12:54: Message edited by: TWA Fan 1 ]
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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mioguido
Post Captain
Member # 123
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by toga:
mioguido,
just a clarification. twa did not die. they were purchased as an operating entity. turn-key if you will.
try looking at it this way....
TWA was the organ donor and AA was the recipient of those organs. works for me.
Posts: 364 | From: CLE & The Space Coast
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B-757-200
Post Captain
Member # 430
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posted
Or, without the TWA purchase, AA would have furloughed 2500 pilots and 5000 F/As after 9-11, instead of gutting the TWA employee group.
TWA would definately have survived without the AA buyout; anyone wjo says they would'nt have is just speculating, or trying to justify the obviously inequitable and totally destructive seniority 'integration'.
Posts: 1278 | From: Los Angeles,Ca,USA
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Draginitin
Post Captain
Member # 2324
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posted
I don't think JB is going to be saddled with pensions, because they're going to continue to not fund any. In American business pushing towards increased globalization, it's moving quickly towards a third world labor system . . . and we as airline workers ain't in the upper caste of the system.
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
Apparently the only airline that, till now, has been exempt from the boom/bust cycle is Southwest...
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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toga
Post Captain
Member # 719
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posted
mioguido,
look at it any way you want. the bottom line is, american bought twa as an operating entity.
everything else is speculation.
many things could have happened, but we didnt get to see them cause aa bought twa.
Posts: 71 | From: unemployment line
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Jeff I.
Post Captain
Member # 2334
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by toga:
mioguido,
look at it any way you want. the bottom line is, american bought twa as an operating entity.
everything else is speculation.
many things could have happened, but we didnt get to see them cause aa bought twa.
Perhaps a better way to phrase it is not so much that AA "bought" TWA but that TWA management "sold out" TWA. There ---- that works for me.
Jeff I.
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B717FLYER
Post Captain
Member # 269
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posted
If it makes anyone feel better (as it does me) I'm one of twenty some ex-TWAers recently hired by AWA. This growth is great and I'm looking forward to many more TWAers getting hired here. Who says low-fare carriers are bad? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 454 | From: commuting purgatory
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Jeff I.
Post Captain
Member # 2334
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by B717FLYER:
If it makes anyone feel better (as it does me) I'm one of twenty some ex-TWAers recently hired by AWA. This growth is great and I'm looking forward to many more TWAers getting hired here. Who says low-fare carriers are bad?
B717 -
Great news ---- congratulations to you and the other TWA'ers. What iron will you be flying over there?
Jeff I.
Posts: 482 | From: New York
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B717FLYER
Post Captain
Member # 269
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posted
Jeff:
Most all of us are assigned the Airbus. I love the simulator -- it's a computer instructing a computer to instruct the flying computer. No joke.
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
B717,
How do you compare flying the Airbus (are you flying the A320?) to the previous planes you flew?
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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Jeff I.
Post Captain
Member # 2334
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by B717FLYER:
Jeff:
Most all of us are assigned the Airbus. I love the simulator -- it's a computer instructing a computer to instruct the flying computer. No joke.
B717 -
No joke ----- but very funny. Does this mean you will be turning into a computer nerd???
Also, a quick question: Someone posted here a month or so ago that Boeing had officially halted the 717 program. Although I didn't look closely, I tried browsing the web a couple of times (briefly) to see some official announcement on this. Could you confirm that this is true?
Thanks.
Jeff
Posts: 482 | From: New York
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PITbeast
Post Captain
Member # 108
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posted
I, too, thought I had heard it was cancelled; but I couldn't find a new release on the Boeing web page. Instead, I found the article below.
Boeing Committed To 717 Program And 100-Seat Market
Boeing has affirmed its commitment to the 717 program and the 100-passenger market by announcing it will continue production of the airplane at its Long Beach, Calif., final assembly facility. This reaffirmation of the 717 follows a detailed evaluation of the program's economics and the 100-seat airliner market.
Airlines and their passengers have told Boeing that they prefer the comfort and convenience of the 717. The efficient 717 is meeting or exceeding all expectations in revenue service. It is the best 100-passenger airplane for short-haul, high frequency routes.
Boeing believes in the 717, despite less-than-expected order activity for all 100-seat airplanes in the past several years. This market remains fertile, but it has developed slower than forecasted. Boeing plans to stay the course because it recognizes that the 717 is the right product to fulfill airline needs.
Here are a few key facts about the airplane, its market, economics and future. Together, they tell a convincing story about the 717 and why it has more orders than any other new competing airplane.
Airplane
The rugged 717 is built specifically for demanding short-range routes. Its economics are second to none.
The passenger cabin is large, quiet and bright, with big jet comfort on regional flights.
The 717 meets tomorrow's more stringent environmental standards today -- it's the quietest airplane in its class. The plane is advanced but simple to operate. For all these reasons and many more, the 717 is the best 100-seat jetliner available.
Market
There is a requirement for about 3,000 airplanes with 90 to 110 seats over the next 20 years. Boeing believes it can capture a good share of this sizeable market. Potential customers include at least three types:
* mainline carriers replacing aging DC-9s, F28s and 737-200s;
* regional airlines flying turboprops or small regional jets but are ready to move up; and
* low-cost airlines that benefit from the 717's low operating costs and great reliability.
Economics
The 717 earns money for airline customers because costs are low.
* It has significantly lower cash operating costs than the A318, more than 13 percent less on a typical 300-nautical mile flight.
* The 717 will also maintain an economic advantage over airplanes such as the Embraer 195 and Fairchild Dornier 928, both years away from entry into service.
Future
Boeing announced in October 2001 that it wanted to take a fresh look at the 717's market because of the current difficult airline environment.
The company has come away convinced that the 100-seat market will recover and flourish.
The 717 is a great product for that market, and it is here to stay.
Posts: 208 | From: Mount Olive, NC
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Jeff I.
Post Captain
Member # 2334
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posted
PITbeast -
Thanks for posting this. I hope this is true and that Boeing is in for the long haul with the 717. I think it will pay off for them and for the flying public.
Jeff I.
Posts: 482 | From: New York
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
Looking not only at Embraer, but also Bombardier's announcement last week that it's entering into the 100-seat airliner field with a brand new aircraft, it sounds like Boieng is making a sound decision.
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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Kenneth
Post Captain
Member # 259
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posted
Two unrelated thoughts ... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
About the 717 ... I still haven't had the chance to ride one ... though I tried during the last few months they were here in '01. TWA was the launch customer for the 717, another incentive to want to see it around for years to come.
About AWA ... Does anyone remember Captain Chronic? He left TWA sometime (? early in 2000) for operations at AWA and as I recall, he made an impact on things.
Ken
Posts: 160 | From: Philadelphia, PA
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B717FLYER
Post Captain
Member # 269
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posted
TWA Fan 1:
I'm still in training so I can't yet speak about flying the actual plane. I don't hear many complaints though.
My_Cat:
Joe Chronic is the VP-Flight Operations here at AWA. He spoke to our newhire class. He happened to be my sim instructor on the 717 and he flew a 727 trip with a classmate though he didn't acknowledge either of us. He's apparently not well-regarded by the rank-and-file around here but I'm reserving judgement so far.
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MrMarky
Post Captain
Member # 635
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posted
B717FLYER,
Congratulations on your new position with AWA!
So glad to see that at least some of our furloughed friends are finding permanent positions doing what they love to do.
Does this mean you'll be moving to Phoenix?
Take care,
Marky
PS -- That reminds me -- to all you F/A's, according to the newspaper ads out here, North American Airlines is hiring F/A's to be based in OAK.
Posts: 434 | From: Concourse C
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TWAnr
Post Captain
Member # 166
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrMarky:
PS -- That reminds me -- to all you F/A's, according to the newspaper ads out here, North American Airlines is hiring F/A's to be based in OAK.
There is a reason that employment stability at North American Airlines resembles a revolving door. Here are two emails from a friend detailing her experience there:
quote:
Good to hear from you.
I left training with NAA after the second week. I smelled something fishy from day one,,,and things didn't get any better. From the way that I saw them doing business, I would have not been happy there. At my last interview with them, the VP walked into the room and said to me, "We can offer you full time flying in Oakland, if you are interested." Once there, I realized that they were planning to treat the F/As in New York as full time employees and the ones in Oakland as part time. The major difference being that they had no intention of giving the Oakland people ANY BENEFITS! No medical/dental, no vacation, 401K, retirement, seniority, NOTHING! Their policy is full time: full benefits, 67 hour guarantee, $19/HR. Time and a half above that. Part time: no bennies, available only Friday and Sat, 25 hour guarantee. Here's the deal. They handed out to us (part timers) bid packages with lines from 76 hours to 88 hours. And of course your overtime didn't kick in until 68 hours.
When I finally when in and confronted them about it. I got a lot of no eye contact and told that I should be grateful to have been offered a job, with the industry in the state that it is in. I asked if I could then fly a "part time" line as outlined. You would have thought that I was a terrorist. All hell broke loose.
The next day, I thanked them, said my polite good-byes and left. They wanted me out of there so fast, so that I wouldn't contaminate the little "I've always wanted to be a stewardess girls," they gave me a ticket for a JetBlue that was leaving in 45 minutes and refused to let me change it for a later flight. X was on his way in to spend the weekend with me in Manhattan. So I just threw the ticket away, had a great weekend, and used a TWA/AA pass to get home.
Seeing what they were trying to pull on these people made TWA and AA look like good guys.
And:
quote:
I doubt that they will again hire someone with "experience" like myself.....out of all the people who interviewed they only hired me and 2 others who had ever been f/as. And I guess they were right. I can't image anyone who has a clue working for them.
As I told you.....after I got to training, they told all the Oak f/as that they were considered "part time". Their info defines part time as 25 hr guarantee available only to fly Fri, and Sat. Then they handed out bid packs for the part timers with lines built from 77 hrs to 86 hrs. And they were to receive absolutely NO BENEFITS OF ANY KIND. No vac., seniority, medical, 401k...NADA! When I asked if I could then be offered a "part timers line of time" they went ballistic.
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B717FLYER
Post Captain
Member # 269
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posted
Hi Marky. Thanks. It's kind of funny but I signed a contract on a new house in Milwaukee just before I was called for the AWA interview. So I'm a commuter for now. My girlfriend (and co-owner) has ties to the area so I don't forsee any move to PHX anytime soon. PHX is tempting me, however, especially with its lack of mosquitoes.
Take care yourself,
717 (now Airbus Flyer, er, computer operator)
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donuway
Post Captain
Member # 803
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posted
When this topic was fresh , I was having computer problems, and i think that most here know that i pretty much agree with Jeff on this issue. The Worldspan thing, I'm not too sure about. I think that all the other suitors for it,,,,or the ones TWA approached with their paradigm ways of thinking, were just circling overhead. Who owns Worldspan now?
What brought me to post was the activities I will be doing today.
Four years ago today, I left work early to catch the afternoon airshow on the Riverfront. It was to feature planes representing various eras of the countries oldest Airline, flying in their 75th year. Things were looking about as upbeat as they could for this old airline. New planes, new routes, record breaking load factors, and they seemed to be approaching operating profitability.
After this celebration, the 75th year hoopla seemed to fade very quickly, when it should have been just getting into full swing. Some of us should have seen the handwriting on the wall. I am of the opinion that some at One City Center knew what was going to happen, and this 75th thing was more of a Swan Song, than a "Look what's still to come" celebration.
It was an exciting 75 years.
Don
Posts: 414 | From: St. Louis, Mo
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reasonableman
Junior Poster
Member # 2561
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posted
OMG,
Yeah, open this can of worms again. I mean the further we get away from the actual event the more delusional you can choose to become.
No sane person on the planet thinks TWA could have survived 911, especially since you couldn't survive April of 2001 when every carrier on the planet made money except you.
Check back into the asylum. Enough of this revisionist history. Any time you want to branch off and go back on your own please be my guest. Until then enjoy fantasy land. Frankly, we're getting real tired of you nearly destroying AA after you destroyed yourselves.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff I.:
I just read this morning that America West has placed an order for 22 planes from Airbus (319's and 320's) in anticipation of increased traffic. I know I'll get my share of skeptics here but ... even with increasing distance from January 2001, it is still hard not to play the "What If" game.
So ..... what if the sham bankruptcy wasn't declared to remove Karabu obligations from AA? I'm convinced TWA would have made it to 9/11. Then what? In my opinion, they would have had about a 20% chance of surviving at that point and certain chips would have obviously needed to fall their way. First, they would have needed a government loan. Second, they would have needed to sell their share of Worldspan to keep their cash on hand in check during the quarters of red ink that all the carriers except Southwest faced following 9/11.
Acknowledging that, TWA was also in a sort of bridge position between the majors and the low-costers. TWA, in fact, had been positioning itself in this direction for a few years prior to 9/11. They were offering some semblance of full-service but were undercutting the majors on fare structure. Further, with their focus cities they were beginning to position themselves to offer more point-to-point service. All of this coupled with the codeshare agreement with AWA makes one wonder if, in fact, TWA might have had a shot (admittedly, a long shot) of surviving the carnage in the airline industry in the post-9/11 era and actually now be at a point where they were in a better position than they'd been in 15 years to start showing some stability if not some actual profits. Karabu would have ended last September as well which would have been an economic and psychological boost for them.
When one looks at AWA's position, certainly not a thriving carrier but one that appears to be solid for the foreseeable future (and also one that was in a very precarious position even in the pre-9/11 world), it is difficult to not play the "What If" game.
Any feedback from this VERY quiet board of late???
Jeff I.
Posts: 3 | From: TX
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extwacaptain
Prop Wash
Member # 381
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by reasonableman:
[QB] OMG,
No sane person on the planet thinks TWA could have survived 911, especially since you couldn't survive April of 2001 when every carrier on the planet made money except you.
Frankly, we're getting real tired of you nearly destroying AA after you destroyed yourselves.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To:The "Reasonable" man.
Your quote above should start the fireworks a little early today.
Most SANE people wait until nightfall to see 'em better.
Anyway, please add me to the list who believe TWA might have survived 9-11 just as well as those who did survive.
To the REST of you...."HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY"
Randy Kramer, retired TWA pilot
P.S. J.J...The GENTLEMAN to whom you have responded is a passenger, not an employee. Most SANE posters check the profile before sending a smart-ass reply.
Posts: 892 | From: Encino, Ca. U.S.A.
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Adnan ILyas
Post Captain
Member # 115
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posted
reasonableman writes,"Check back into the asylum. Enough of this revisionist history. Any time you want to branch off and go back on your own please be my guest. Until then enjoy fantasy land. Frankly, we're getting real tired of you nearly destroying AA after you destroyed yourselves."
Want to tell me how TWA is destroying AA? No opinions, just facts, I think I will get some name calling from you, that about it. Lets really see how having TWA employees and it's assets as a cushion saved the AA employees and the company's ass when they were hurting the most:
1. if AA had not bought TWA, I guess there would be 2500 AA pilots on the street, and about 5000 AA F/A's on the street.
2. There wouldn't be 103 MD80's to remove parts from to keep the AA md80s flying during a time when the company was burning 5 million/day and couldn't afford to buy parts.
3. There wouldn't be the 3.2 billion in revenue TWA brought to the dance, so more furloughs and steeper losses.
4. There wouldn't have been 200 million from the sale of Worldspan, when AMR needed the cash so badly and no one on Wallstreet wanted to lend them anything, remember the stock price around a buck fifty?, I guess you slept through that didn't you?
5. There wouldn't be 500 million worth of slots at key airports like JFK, LGA, DCA, do you recall AMR starting the east coast shuttle? Guess whose slots were used?
I will agree with you regarding the buyout, I wished so bad that AA kepts it's meat hooks off of us, we would have been around, we might have had to sell worldspan, and even take a paycut, but we would have made it. AWA was in a lot worst shape then TWA, and guess who is thriving right now?
So next time you talk, be factual, and simply say thank you.
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Jeff I.
Post Captain
Member # 2334
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posted
Captain Kramer, Teeway -
Thanks for your thoughtful replies and ..... I also wish you a belated Happy Independence Day.
Of course, it is always somewhat amusing to see the responses of those who seem to have huge axes to grind and are in a constant state of being a live wire ready to attack.
Revisionism implies putting one's own spin on events with flawed facts or assumptions. I did reread my original post to see if I may have gone overboard so that I could give (ahem) "reasonableman" the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I probably could have been within my bounds to present an even harsher view of things (as Teeway "reasonably" did).
And I also ask the man of reason ..... what harm is there in revisiting an event a few years after the fact. I imagine lots of Time-Warner shareholders have lots of legitimate (and negative) things to say about the AOL merger. Sometimes moves are made for all the wrong reasons but the participants are clouded by the rapidity of things unfolding and an overarching pressure to have decisions made. In my opinion, this was the case with the AA acquisition of TWA. There were a handful (possibly a few more) of people who knew exactly what they were doing and enormous pressure was put upon TWA employees, the court and the political powers that be to allow this thing to go forward.
If one can't be allowed to revisit such a monumental event that affected the lives of tens of thousands of TWA employees and hundreds of thousands of shareholders (not to mention people in STL and surrounding areas), I worry about the state of our democracy and our ability to engage in meaningful discourse on a variety of issues.
Of course, it is always easier to lash out with baseless attacks when one is operating from a state of fear and loathing.
Let's hope as we move beyond Independence Day 2004 that there will be a lessening of the acrimony and that the dumbing down of our dialogue will, if possible, reverse course.
Happy 4th (well .... one day late) to all. And .... although this board has been quiet of late ... I just want to let all my TWA friends know that the passing of time has not diminished my great respect for everything you contributed to the flying public and, dare I say, to the country (and world) at large.
Jeff I.
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Gloriaswansong
Junior Poster
Member # 2552
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posted
Originally posted by reasonableman:
"No sane person on the planet thinks TWA could have survived 911, especially since you couldn't survive April of 2001 when every carrier on the planet made money except you."
You must have been furloughed for quite awhile to have time to interview every person on the planet and examine the books of every other airline!
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extwacaptain
Prop Wash
Member # 381
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by reasonableman:
[QB] OMG,
Frankly, we're getting real tired of you nearly destroying AA after you destroyed yourselves.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reasonable man,
For the past 60 years, American has been my second favorite airline. (after TWA)
My big brother flew for your airline for 37 years and was one of my heroes.
For you to post on the TWA portion of this board and blame the TWA employees for the "destruction" of American Airlines is completely unconscionable.
May I remind you, that YOU, and the unions of American Airlines, with the obvious approval of Mr. Carty and his management team (to determine the integration policy) COMPLETELY destroyed the future for most of our TWA employees.
And NOW, you not only blame the TWA employees for almost destroying American, but you object to our memories of a wonderful past. Tell me, Mr. Reasonable man what else do you want to take from us?
Maybe if you would inform us of your tremendous contributions to the industry, it would help many of us to understand your position. Please, don't be shy.
Randy Kramer
A TWA employee who spent a couple of years volunteering "Trying to destroy American" (Those are your words, not mine.)
Posts: 892 | From: Encino, Ca. U.S.A.
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by reasonableman:
OMG,
Frankly, we're getting real tired of you nearly destroying AA after you destroyed yourselves.
This statement is so patently ludicrous it barely merits a response.
But a little perspective would be useful.
Before the acquisition TWA was losing money, largely because of its continuing obligations to Carl Icahn. As a consequence of its shaky financial condition, TWA was forced to engage in expensive aircraft leases and did not have enough available cash on hand to hedge its fuel prices.
Once AMR acquired TWA all the obligations to Carl Icahn were ended, the aircraft leases were renegotiated to the same terms as AMR received for its other airraft and fuel costs were folded into AMR's standard procurement procedures.
Before the acquisition, TWA's cost per passenger mile were considerably lower than AA's and were thus further reduced. The revenue that had been siphoned off in the Karabu arrangement was now staying in AMR's coffers.
At the time of acquisition, therefore, TWA was operationally profitable for AMR.
It is clear, though, that AMR's management had no intention of keeping TWA profitable through a combination of hubris and their narrow management style.
First, as TWA became integrated into AA, they favored their own AA routes through their marketing and reservations systems, thus siphoning revenue away from TWA.
Second, they started to adopt AA procedures in TWA operations which slowly starting ramping up the cost of TWA flights, when they should have done the opposite, namely adopt TWA procedures to reduce the cost per passenger mile of AA flights.
The painful irony is that AA was eventually forced to "discover" many of the cost cutting measures that TWA had been using for years and which were summarily rejected by AMR when suggested by its ex-TWA'ers.
But any suggestion that TWA in any way played a major role in the $6 billion + losses incurred by AMR in the 18 months after 9/11 is a pure fantasy. Remember, in the 13 years that TWA incurred losses, from 1988 to 2001, the airline lost a total of about $1.5 billion.
In the 9/11 aftermath, TWA was quickly scavenged and decimated by AMR in order to help it salvage its core operation of AA.
In the final analysis, while TWA will usually been seen as the old, failing airline that got acquired by AMR, the fact is that TWA was operationally profitable in its final years, and its structure represented an innovation in the airline business (the mid-premium airline) that AMR is desperately trying to adopt but has yet to achieve.
[ 07-06-2004, 08:38: Message edited by: TWA Fan 1 ]
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mioguido
Post Captain
Member # 123
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by reasonableman:
[QB] Frankly, we're getting real tired of you nearly destroying AA after you destroyed yourselves.
i really don't think that AA **EARNED** the term "Sky Nazi" by being a loving and feeling good company. and as far as i can tell, no such term was ever coined or used against TWA and her employees the way AA's has been. so...you guys and gals at AA seem to have a reputation that precedes you....in and outside of the industry. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
[ 07-06-2004, 20:46: Message edited by: mioguido ]
Posts: 364 | From: CLE & The Space Coast
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Adnan ILyas
Post Captain
Member # 115
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posted
If anyone is interested there is a great story on the AA buyout of TWA in the Aug 2004 issue of Airways, you can order a copy from their website. It's great reading and for all of TWA fans, and a must read of the people at AA.
Adnan
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mioguido
Post Captain
Member # 123
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adnan ILyas:
If anyone is interested there is a great story on the AA buyout of TWA in the Aug 2004 issue of Airways, you can order a copy from their website. It's great reading and for all of TWA fans, and a must read of the people at AA.
Adnan
it sounds like you already had a peek at the article? if so, is it fair and balanced or just another spin on the greatest aviation rape in recent history? no, i'm not biased... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 07-07-2004, 00:31: Message edited by: mioguido ]
Posts: 364 | From: CLE & The Space Coast
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donuway
Post Captain
Member # 803
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posted
Just have time for a few thoughts concerning some of the above posts. If one can believe what they read, I believe most of these are fact based.
TWA had a hub in St. Louis. In the final years they claimed STL MADE them money, while most of the other operations were losers. This was hard for a lot of people to take, particularly those on the East coast and in Europe where TWA was once a powerhouse. If you look at the direction TWA was taking in the last couple of years, TWA was concentrating somewhat on adding more International, Hawaii and Caribbean flying out of STL. If upper level management had ANY clue of what they were doing, it would make sense to add this type of flying out of STL, where they could make money.
Why was STL profitable and the other operations not? It should be pretty clear. Karabu was the East Coast Issue, while out of proportion labor costs were the Overseas Issue. Until TWA offered flying to THREE Hawaii destinations, the Caribbean, Paris, Bermuda, and in the future Germany and Asia out of STL (AKA the MIDWEST, thanks to OZARK) what was the primary option Midwest travelers had to get to these destinations? AA of course. Do you think AA management liked seeing TWA nibble at their dominance in these markets? Would the bite have become bigger from this small, but Award Winning Airline in the fall of 2003, had they made it that long?
Well, to those who are focusing anger at TWA employees for "ruining" AA, talk to your upper level management. They are the ones who decided to buy TWA, Keep the LLC, even though they could have disposed of it if it was such a real loser, and wittle away at it until they had just what they wanted left;
Decreased competition, and at least one Hub that is making them money.
Don
Posts: 414 | From: St. Louis, Mo
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L1011Ret
Post Captain
Member # 1792
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posted
Another issue that came into play in Europe was the huge workforce at many stations. TLV had about 100 employees and MAD about 80. The European work rules really prohibited TWA from reducing the size of the staff or contracting out the work.
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
I picked up a copy of Airways today and read the article about the AA's buyout of TWA. It was a well-written piece which quantified how much of a hole Carl Icahn created at TWA in order to enrich himself.
The treachery of AA's unions and management vis a vis workforce integration was also detailed.
Particularly poignant for me was the description of AA's internal memos which forbade any displays of emotion or hugging on the day all the remaining TWA f/a's were furloughed. That kind of heavy-handed, old-school paternalistic management style is the poison that infects the entire operation of American Airlines.
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Adnan ILyas
Post Captain
Member # 115
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posted
mioguido
The article is factual and clearly shows what AA did to TWA. In fact the same Author will dedicate an entire issue to TWA later this year. I believe this is a must read for all.
Adnan
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Jeff I.
Post Captain
Member # 2334
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TWA Fan 1:
I picked up a copy of Airways today and read the article about the AA's buyout of TWA. It was a well-written piece which quantified how much of a hole Carl Icahn created at TWA in order to enrich himself.
TWA Fan 1 -
I went up to a website for Airways to see if I could order the single copy of this. All I saw were yearly subscriptions.
Where did you get your copy?
Thanks.
Jeff I.
Posts: 482 | From: New York
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
Jeff I,
Airways magazine is available at Barnes & Noble and Borders Books. I bought mine at the Barnes & Noble on Union Square yesterday; I'd say thay had about half a dozen copies left.
Kent
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Jeff I.
Post Captain
Member # 2334
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posted
Thanks, Kent. I have a Borders down here in the Wall St. area. I'll try to pick up a copy later today or tomorrow and shall look forward to reading it.
Jeff I.
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donuway
Post Captain
Member # 803
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posted
Thanks for the link TWAnr,
I just had enough time to give it a quick glance at work, so I guess I will have to visit one of the newest Barnes and Nobles in the system at a revived, rebuilt shopping center in North County.
I think it's one of the few, if not the only place with a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Florissant MO. But it doesn't open till 9AM? They must think we are from LA or something? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Don
Posts: 414 | From: St. Louis, Mo
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extwacaptain
Prop Wash
Member # 381
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TWA Fan 1:
Particularly poignant for me was the description of AA's internal memos which forbade any displays of emotion or hugging on the day all the remaining TWA f/a's were furloughed. That kind of heavy-handed, old-school paternalistic management style is the poison that infects the entire operation of American Airlines.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Memo which should never have been written.
Several days prior to our F/As making their last flight, many of them mentioned the fact that they had been advised not to show emotion or hug, during the final days. What else was in that message to our employees, I do not know.
I do know that such a message could only have been written by someone with a complete lack of feeling for his or her fellow man. The author had to be without a human heart. Not even an "Oscar winning" actor could have ended a decades long, wonderful career, and leave his friends without some showing of emotion.
In L.A., on the last day, July 1, 2003, from dawn 'til dusk, every crew arriving and departing gathered in their gate area and in a most proper (and expected) way allowed their emotions to be shared.
It would have been impossible to do otherwise.
Randy Kramer
Posts: 892 | From: Encino, Ca. U.S.A.
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B-757-200
Post Captain
Member # 430
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TWAnr:
Individual copies can be ordered at this site:
http://www.airwaysmag.com/magazine/a102/
A PDF version of the article is located at this site: http://www.twapaf.com/Documents/Airways%20Article%20on%20TWA.htm
Actually, TWAnr, this PDF link was eliminated yesterday because some AA people complained to "Airways" that the link violated their copyright infringement. TWAPAF is now attempting to secure permission before posting the link to the article.
If the A*******s are trying to keep the 'real story' from getting out, they've failed. It's all over the TWA employee websites and hundreds of copies have already been sold. Now, instead of just the TWA/AA employees knowing what really happened, ALL airline employees will know!
Too bad that little idea failed...
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