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Author Topic: Hey y'all
gemini
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After reading this thread,it is the same ole same ole.
No AA'er should apologize to any TWA'er.
This was not an employee "doing".
What is becoming very old is the anger like "Hawkman" and his wife continuously post on boards.Move on.Your anger is not healthy and not one person has to bow down to you and apologize.
By the way,Hawkmans posts sound so much like his wife's verbage.Hmmmm
NAB

[ 04-09-2006, 17:28: Message edited by: gemini ]

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HAWKMAN
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Hi Barbara,

Nice to hear from you here on Jacks. Just a few quick items to address your supposed concerns.

Yes, you're right, it's a little too late for apologies. . .so at this late stage why even throw insincerety at us?. . .it just simply doesn't work as the supposed "apologies," wring hollow.

Let's face it Barbara, actions speak much louder than words so my first reponse to any of the pathetic/hollow attempts to apologize is to say. . ."oh yeah, so where have you been for the last FIVE or so years?"

Barbara, I wouldn't be too quick to say this wasn't an "employee," doing. I think you will be VERY surprised about just a few things when the TWA pilots lawsuit enters discovery. . .including how apparently tightly wound together both AA and and the APA (Yes, that means at least the pilot EMPLOYEES,) were in their effort to just plain get rid of us all. . .contrary to all the testimony and lies that were dolled out to the public.

And no Barbara, hate has no place here. . .or anywhere else for that matter. However, I will say for the record that ACCOUNTABILTY does. . .and will for a VERY long time.

You know, also for the record, it's just too bad you aligned yourself with those who apparently sold the TWA F/As down the river. Quite frankly, what happened to your group was more aggregious than what happened to us. . .and at one point I thought your group had a much stronger case than ours. . .so, prey tell, what happened there?

Anyway, Barbara, I will close in saying "thank you," for the INCREDIBLY generous compliment. Maybe you don't know this but my wife has returned to school full time in order to finish another degree. The school and curricula she is matriculating is VERY heavy in writing. . .and so far my wife has a 4.0 GPA. Yes Barbara, anyone who thinks my writing is anywhere near as good as her's is definately giving me a compliment. So once again Barbara. . ."thanks."

HAWKMAN

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gemini
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Move on.
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Irish
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quote:
Originally posted by HAWKMAN:
. . .so, prey tell, what happened there?

"Prey" tell? Is there a Freudian slip lurking here?
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IA Farm Boy
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I notice that no attempt was made to answer the question- "what method of integration should be used NEXT time?"

Hawkman- what is it?? What would be fair with, say, an AA/Alaska or AA/NWA merger?

[ 04-10-2006, 21:01: Message edited by: IA Farm Boy ]

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DC9
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DOH with some temporary protective cells.
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Bob Ritchie
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There is hope,

Within the past week I have had personal conversations with two TWA pilots with whom my personal relationship had been difficult,during the long and painful process of the AA/TWA cramdown. Often it seemed that they and I were of opposing positions. Frequently we clashed on this and other message boards. Looking back and even at the time I felt that our discussions contained more misunderstanding than anything else. Considering the passions of the time and the difficulty of communicating via a medium such as this...it is was difficult to avoid such.

One of the guys was a non rev on my flight. I invited him to the cockpit for a visit. Our conversation was brief but pleasant. I was left with the feeling that wounds were healing.

During my last trip, I had an hour long conversatiion with another individual with whom I had often clashed in the past. It was a warm and almost tender discussion. We found a great deal of common ground and I felt that we left one another as friends.

Perhaps time and experience has proven what I always believed. We always had much in common. We were all TWA pilots and we recieved unfair treatment at the hands of the APA. Our only true difference was....how to deal with that reality.

Hopefully we have all learned from our painful experiences. My long and fruitful career has only 13 months remaining. I will not be around to participate in future challenges. It is my prayer that the younger pilots,who have decades left in this industry, will apply these experiences and rebuild this once proud brotherhood of airmen.

Bob Ritchie

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HAWKMAN
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Rich,

Didn’t know that question was directed at me. But since YOU asked let’s take a stab at it!

Jim, my friend, you have it all wrong. “DOH,” with some restrictions/fences!? That‘s not how it should go at all. OK, let’s use a CAL/aa “buyout,” type merger for the following example. And, let’s say we are the CAL side and CAL is buying/merging with essentially most all of aa’s assets.

Yes, our CEO worked a deal with aa’s not-so-brite CEO, and got aa to pursue certain filings that will virtually eliminate aa’s creditors while protecting his parachute. Thus, as a result we can take the company for a virtual “steal.”. Also, VERY cool that our CEO got approval for the buyout/merger by testifying before Congress that the aa employees would be given jobs and treated right. Well, at the very least let’s make sure the pilots are all treated right! (BTW, we’re not going to pay any attention to our company’s warning of a future downturn in the economy and a probably downsizing of the company. . .that wouldn’t be right.) So, let’s get down to it.

First off, let’s start by throwing some good ole fashioned “hate,” around. . .specifically by insulting and demeaning the other carrier’s pilots. Let’s elevate ourselves to “Nordstrom” level pilots and equate those guys to a lessor “K-Mart” type of pilot. . .of course, all in a attempt to make the opposition think they are unworthy. So, while we’re at it let’s keep going with the hate thing, so why don’t we also compare them all to “hot-dog vendors.”

Now, let’s set a not-so arbitrary line in the sand. And, let’s insult them some more by calling ALL their line captains who fall behind that line as “illegitimate.” Man, this is starting to look good!

Now, let’s look at their “career expectations.” Not looking so good right now. . . their company made certain filings and aa was recently near bankruptcy. . .barely holding now with a not so good outlook for a major legacy. AE is poised to completely take over the domestic flying within the next several years.

So really, it safe to say that at the very least, the aa F/Os have no career expectations so they should ALL be STAPLED below our most recent newhires. Oh, that’s right, we have some guys currently in the training pipeline. Well, let’s just get the company to move back the hire date we already gave them so they will fall onto the list BEHIND all of our training candidates!. . .LOL!

You know, let’s really slam it home to these guys. Let’s move the staple line up and STAPLE some of their bottom half CAPTAINS too. Those guys won’t mind, they’re all lucky just to have a job anyways.

Ok, what do we do with everyone else? Well, why don’t we ratio them in with the most senior aa captain with the most senior K-Mart type getting filtered in with our most junior 1991 hire. Why 1991? Who cares, it just sounds good and keeps them out of our most senior guys ways. Then, the rest will come in at say a 8:1 ratio. That is, only one of the K-Mart types for every eight real Nordstrom CAL pilots.

Oh, they do have some airplanes and it may take some time to convert them to our configuration? So, in the meantime, let’s come up with some very minor protections for their Dallas hub. The company is going to get rid of it anyway so it really doesn’t matter.

Let’s create a “cell,” that protects only their most senior captains who are above the STAPLE line. This might even get some of these senior guys to work FOR us and to work against their own! BTW, didn’t some of their guys come here to try and work out a “special,” backroom deal for themselves anyway?

Hmmm, company says HOU base is too close to Dallas and they really need to shrink down a bit to make this work. But the fleets are still separate and we can’t fly their airplanes because they are technically on a different certificate. Let’s come up with something that will get rid of them even faster!

Why don’t we come up with a special program called “CAFO.” This will allow their remaining bottom half captains to move back to the right seat. . .accelerating the furloughs of the rest of them by at least a good six-months to a year. We’ll let the “CAFO,” guys keep their 4 stripes and captain pay but they will really just be F/Os flying from the right seat. What a GREAT idea! Keep hammering them that they are lucky to have a job. . .that along with keeping the 4th stripe and pay should keep that group happy. . .and QUIET!

Yes, we’ve never done anything like this before, but hey. If it accelerates the hot-dog vendor’s exits off the property then it’s worth it.

Ok, so what’s this? They are making some kind of offer based on an average seat position and average date-of-hire? And they are trying to claim that they came WITH their own routes, seats, jobs, and equipment? And that no CAL pilot will be adversely affected? What? And, they’re trying to claim that their proposal shares the wealth and spreads the “windfall,” of a stronger company to BOTH pilot groups!? Forget it. They don’t deserve to be here anyway.

Just play along like we’re really interested in negotiating and in the meantime, we’ll sign our own deal for our own protections with the company. Not only that, but I have it on good word that the company really doesn’t want any of that trash over hear either. Remember, we were hired, not acquired. So, the word is the company will work WITH us in getting rid of them as fast as we can. Let’s follow up on that ASAP!

What? The K-Mart types don’t like this sweetheart deal we’re offering them? What? They are considering some legal action? Forget it, let’s just sign our own merger deal with the company and FORCE this thing where the sun ain’t shining! We’ll just add it as a supplement to our current agreement and call it “CC.” Wow, what a real crap sandwhich we made for them! LOL! These guys won’t know what hit them. They won’t even have have legitimate recourse as our grievance system is rigged against them and won’t even hear their cases. . .LOL!

And you know, while the company literally throws their K-Mart captains out onto the street with the company trash, let’s make sure they know how privelegded they we’re to even get a paycheck with the company logo on it.

LOL! Don’t worry about future recalls. We’ll all be senior to them when they come back and they will have to do what we tell them to do. . . and they’ll just be lucky to be in the presence of “Nordstrom,” type pilots. Man, are we good!

What’s this? They really are considering some legal action? Really? Well heck, let’s sue them FIRST! That outta really throw them off. Not only that, we’ll use the dues money from the ones that actually joined our association to WORK AGAINST THEM and to fund OUR litigation. . .LOL!

Man are we GOOD! No, make that the BEST cause remember, we’re “Nordstrom!” BTW, don’t worry at all about the long run. Most of them will be “healed,” by the time they come back and won’t remember a thing about what we did to them or how we treated them like crap. Not only that, but if any of them do speak up, we’ll just control that with threats of the dreaded aa “Rule 32,” and threats of termination. Man, do we have this merger covered or what!?. . .LOL!

Ok, back to Rich and Jim. Well, now that we have covered the true reality that the majority of us former TWAers faced. . . which is VERY contrary to the sorry-ass “reality,” that some others would try and have you believe, maybe, and just maybe, you can now surmise how a merger should NOT be handled.

HAWKMAN

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DC9
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Hawkman,
I guess I'm really too dumb to figure out how you would merge 2 seniority lists,so why don't you tell me how it should be done in just a few words.
I certainly know that the socalled AA/TWA was not right.

[ 04-12-2006, 15:32: Message edited by: DC9 ]

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Bob Ritchie
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Dc-9,

The blueprint is ALPA Merger Policy. Negotiation, Mediation, Arbitration.

NWA/REP followed it during the 1980's. AWA and USAirways have agreed to follow it in the 21st century.

No need to reinvent the wheel!

Bob Ritchie


Bob Ritchie

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Bob H
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On behalf of most former TWA pilots I know.. My apology for the angry and mostly inaccurate words expressed here by Gary Hawk.

I know MANY former TWA pilots who have the class and respect for others that IS AND WAS what TWA represented and stood for during its 70 year history.

Individuals LIKE Gary Hawk are no more representative of the TWA I was fortunate to work for any more than a few outspoken jerks represent all of American Airlines.

Bob Herbst
OZ/TW/AA and proud to say I wore wings for all of them.

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DC9
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Hey Bob,
Hope all is going well with you and the family.How many years to retirement?Take care.
Jim

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HAWKMAN
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All,

Funny, just about everytime I bring up exactly what happened to us it seems to hit some nerves and an attempt is made to label history as somehow being "angry." Same parrots, spoutin off the same sad chirps. Problem is Bob, that your chirps will not, and cannot change what really happened to us. . .or what really happened to you in the past.

What was it that you were trying to make us all believe again?. . . That somehow you OZ guys were mysteriously STAPLED? Was that it? Was it?

Bob, you once had a great level of respect among many of us real TWAers, including myself. However, when it became evident that you were misconstruing your "facts," to further some kind of apparently misaligned bs agenda. . .much of that respect evaporated.

Proud to have worn the aa wings, eh? Yep, I expected you would one day say that. . .just the same as i always suspected the other parrots. Bob, funny thing, I always suspected that you seemed to related better to your new friends than you did with us. . .your former colleagues. Just a thought.

You know, my wife and I talk somewhat frequently about the results of what happened here. The unfortunate, sad reality is that this merger showed us the true, dark side to many people we once thought were our friends and colleagues.

Bob, you can try and apologize all day long and, make as many chirps with your misaligned and misconstrued bs as you want. It doesn't change what happened. . .and it will not change the ACCOUNTABILITY for what happened.

HAWKMAN

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jpp
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Tell us how you really feel, Gary... it's not quite coming through in your posts.

p.s. your integration idea sucks. I say we just send it to arbitration if the two groups don't agree. Well?

jp

[ 04-12-2006, 18:42: Message edited by: jpp ]

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Mike  Ettel
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HAWKMAN,

Sure is gratifying to see that you are finally over you hate and anger [Eek!] . Apparently you are the only one in airline history who felt he got screwed during a merger.

Mike

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Jeff Harris
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Guys,

I think you should cut Gary some slack. He is angry about the merger process that was, or not used. I am too! The TWA pilot group was screwed and you and I and Gary know it. I can't find any errors in his analogy and it is a pretty accurate description of what happened. I was livid in 1986 because the process of ALPA merger policy was not followed and experienced the same feelings in 2001 when a group of pilots decided how the merger was going to go down without any input from the other group. This greed and arrogance only hastened this profession's plunge to the bottom. We have only ourselves to blame. Henry Davis told me in 1978 that "we college boys were going to screw up this job" I dismissed him as being an old fart living in the past: I'm now an old fart having to live with the mess we have made of this profession. We fly airplanes very well, but the disunity and me, me,me syndrome has made us vulnerable to our employers threats. Don't believe me look around: DL, NW, UAL

I won't be so arrogant as to tell Gary and the others how to handle the pain associated with thier present situation. I hope and pray that they will not necessarily forgive and forget, but learn how to cope with the anger and not let it ruin the rest of thier lives. I was able to do this twice and am the better for it.

Jeff

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by DC9:
Hey Bob,
Hope all is going well with you and the family.How many years to retirement?Take care.
Jim

Hi Jim,

Less than 4 years or after the next trip I've had more than enough of this stuff [Smile]

Fortunately.. I made it to the 767 and mostly do HNL which is a NEEDED change after 30 years on the DC9.

You'd REALLY REALLY REALLY have to love flying to want to keep doing this after 32 years. It sure ain't what it use to be.

I still EASILY remember how much fun it USE to be. A couple of trips with me as YOUR lowly FO come to mind, especially one L/O in MIA!! As JP says, there were times when this job "rocked".. Luckily there are still a few FO's like him around to encourage the enthusiasm factor.

Did you get your handicap down to scratch yet?

Hope all is going great for you and Mary. Elaine says hi.

Bob H

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Irish
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Harris:
I hope and pray that they will not necessarily forgive and forget, but learn how to cope with the anger and not let it ruin the rest of their lives. I was able to do this twice and am the better for it.
Jeff

Jeff,

That's the message I've been trying to impress on Hawk. I've never said he's wrong or that the merger was right but that it's done and he needs to get over it. It scares me to think of him sitting on a porch rocking chair in his 90's agonizing over the merger. What a waste.

Paul

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IA Farm Boy
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Alright, alright. I'll just come out and say it.

I do not know Capt. Hawk, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night. I doubt you'll ever get him to admit it, but after reading Capt. Hawk's posts, I think he'd do it to the next guy. After all, it happened to him. You see, I assume (yes, I know what that means) his Seniority DOH is now 2001. So by doing a straight DOH merger, or even ALPA merger policy, he'd "lose" more seniority. So he'd not care, even perhaps be glad, as now he'd "profit" by having more guys "below" him.

Capt. Hawk, I hope I'm wrong. But your words betray that attitude. I suspect the Reno Air guys felt the same way. Who could blame them? Except that its plane wrong (pun intended). Where does it stop? When does someone (Bueller?? Anyone??) do what's right, even if it COSTS THEM? For everyone's sake, I hope that AA grows and no more integrations happen. I hope that Capt. Hawk gets recalled to the base of his choice and flies happily ever after. And Mrs. Hawk too. Lastly, I hope I don't end up on his jumpseat, as it might be a long ride. I can't imagine being his FO.

Our whole industry is a mess, and while it's hard to see the brighter days ahead (I have trouble with that somedays, too), they are out there, and it's not the whole world's fault (nor every single nAAtive, including JPP) that my life "sucks."

Rich Wilkening
American Eagle
Six year FO
Looking forward to flying with my favorite TWA Flowback this week! (Hi Lee!) (Sorry, Mike, Jimmy, and Lee G!)

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jpp
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Rich,

How dare you say it's not my fault? Haven't you been keeping track of all the issues I am personally "accountable" for?

j/k [Big Grin]

Hawkyman will will get over it some day, and realize that he wasted an incredible amount of negative energy on something that was out of our control. I think we're all looking forward to that day. Some day we'll share a beer or two on a layover, eh? [Smile] [Cool] [Wink]

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HAWKMAN
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Rich,

"I do not know Capt. Hawk." Your words couldn't be more accurate. But somehow your six years as a commuter F/O, that you seem to be so proud of, has made you some kind of expert about something?. . .Hardly.

Jeff,

My friend, your words ring so true and smack of a "been there, done that too," sense. Angry? Yes, I certainly have the right to be angry or bitter just as you did. Especially considering what was outright stolen from me, also considering how poorly I was treated in the process.

However, I choose a different path. . .that of "ACCOUNTABILITY." Yes, ACCOUNTABILITY for what was done and how poorly we were treated. Unfortunately, by no choice of my own, I am living proof of the downright greed, avarice, discrimination, and "hate," that is IMO what makes up the aa pilot group.

And, as a result I have no problem with reminding them or the public of what they did. Especially, when I may come accross some punk trying to act all innocent and cute while pathetically claiming to really miss TWA.

No matter how hard some may try, especially for those who, for some reason, continue to work against us, history will not be changed. . .and neither will the ACCOUNTABILITY for that history.

Jeff, thanks for showing some respect and not demanding that I somehow "move on," or just go away and shut up. How insulting and shameful that is to come from those former colleagues who seemingly worked against us. . .or those who have never even been in our shoes.

But that seems to be the norm around here. . .let's kick the furloughed guys while their down. . .a real class act from some of you that will be remembered, that's for sure.

Jeff, thanks again for the kind words of support, and for your compassion and understanding.

HAWKMAN

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IA Farm Boy
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"But somehow your six years as a commuter F/O, that you seem to be so proud of, has made you some kind of expert about something?. . .Hardly"

AHHHH!!!!!!! I knew it would come out eventually. Attitude. Gary, because you flew big shiny jets, you must be a superior pilot and human being. I kneel in submission. When you get back, you will fit NICELY with your APA comrades.

My six years as a "commuter FO" doesn't make me an expert, nor my ten prior years as a professional pilot, nor all the other FAA licenses (wanna compare?? using your attitude there). I'm hardly proud of being a commuter FO, but I am proud that I've maintained my professionalism in the face of adversity. I am proud that when I fly with a flowback Capt (none of which were on AMR property when I was hired), I remain professional (always) and cordial- if they don't exhibit the superior airman/ human being attitude (familiar?). I have helped TWA Flowbacks understand Eagle Vacation bidding, as well as monthly bidding. I do it because they are nice guys and we all are just trying to make the best of a bad situation. None of us want to be where we are.

And you didn't answer the question still- how should the next merger work? Go ahead- its ok...

Rich Wilkening
(cowaring in the corner FO)

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jpp
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Hey Rich,

Give it up. Gary Hawk has chosen to try and convince the whole world that his situation deserves so much more attention than everyone else who got affected.

Be the better man, as I have been. Gary's attitude will eventually catch up with him. The only person he's hurting here is himself.

One more thing - Squawkman does not represent the attitudes and work ethics of the fine people I knew at TWA. So you can pretty much dismiss his frantic ramblings in much the same way I dismiss a 3 year old's babble.

JP
Admirer of 99.9% of TWA's pilots. Gary knows where he fits in...

[ 04-15-2006, 13:39: Message edited by: jpp ]

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HAWKMAN
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Rich,

Unfortunately, it has become painfully obvious that your inflamatory posts have offered nothing of substance to the issues brought forward on this message string. So far, your posts have offered only inflamatory opinions/attacks and in of themselves, raise question as to your motivation for participating in this string.

Rich, with respect to others, there are "civilians," reading this board who have far more knowlege with regard to what happened than you could ever hope to. . .even considering your six years of experience as a commuter F/O. And for some reason Rich, I get the distinct sense you are not here to learn from those who have been there. . .done that. . .and got the t-shirt.

So, as much as you do not want to hear this. . .my answer to you is simply "no."

No Rich, I will not enter into a tit-for-tat flame-bait with you. I don't feel that is appropriate here as that only serves to insult the maturity, integrety, and intelligence of those who choose to participate here.

HAWKMAN

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jpp
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Hawkman,

Sorry for losing it. Every so often I allow my emotions to post instead of my rational thought process.

Check your email.

regards,
jp

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NoWake
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I do understand anger that HAWKMAN has towards the “worst merger in airline history” (this is Nothing to be proud of) and to sit back while having a paycheck making a deposit every two weeks and telling him to get over it is just wrong. Until you walk in the shoes of another you really have no idea what that person is going through.

I will air my laundry for you. I was making myself literally sick (not everyone would admit this) during the final months and beginning of my furlough. I was so pissed off I turned down the flow back bid because I was in no condition to fly, not to mention flying with a FO who did not want me in “their seat”. Once I was furloughed I received my CDL and relocated heavy equipment, then I got another airline job at the “next Southwest”. We all know what happened to ATA. So there I was again getting sick and this time twice as bad. So I decided to drive trucks again and got a job driving for a PITA company made me want to start up my own trucking company. We put up everything that we own to do it. Sleeping and showering at truck stops around the country and eating food that made crew meals look gourmet. Then Hurricane Katrina hits driving up fuel prices and hit our cash reserve hard. In fear of getting upside down in the SB loan we decide to cut our losses and get out. Now I am trying to get another job in aviation because it is truly what I love. But guess what….I have been out of the flight deck for two years, I do not have 1000 of jet PIC, and the only flying jobs that would consider me pay $18,000 a year.

I walked the line and started flying as a teenager while my friends did coke, went to rehab, and got arrested. Then I received my A&P and FCC in college and finally got a great job at TWA. I know there is someone in the world that has it much worse than I do and I completely understand this, but this is why I worked hard as a young man to have a secure future. So to tell me or anyone else to get over it is just not right because EVERYTHING I WORKED FOR WAS FOR NOTHING. No big deal get over it right? It is just money! But do doctors, lawyers, CPAs have to go through this? Sure they could lose their job and take a 20% pay cut at the new location….but they are STILL in the same pay bracket. Most pilots do not have that luxury.

To say the least I was really pissed off but these days not so bad and I am no longer making myself sick. But I have my moments and get angry when I think about having my career ripped from my dreams.

JP, I do not however agree with the personal attacks towards you because it does appear you are one of the caring guys. But you also have to admit that you are a minority in group and this might be the reason for the attacks.

Side note: Life changes when you have to sleep on off ramps and shower at dirty truck stops. Looking back at TWA I used to get caught up in all the pre-merger bitching and looking back at it I would give my ‘eye teeth’ to have it all again. When someone says you do not know how good you have it until it is gone is a very true statement.

Side note II: HAWKMAN I loved you analogy of the future merger! Spot on!

Sorry for the long wind.
Rick

[ 04-19-2006, 16:20: Message edited by: NoWake ]

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Irish
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Rick,

You've just condensed the entire airline industry of the 21st century into seven paragraphs.

When my son started college he wanted to follow in my foot steps in the worst way. I told him what his future looked like in aviation and he earned his degree in biology. He then worked for a few months as a tech rep for Compuserve while his fiancee earned her masters at Ohio State.

He then earned his masters in environmental engineering in Oregon and worked a six-month stint as a NOAA biological observer on an Alaskan fishing boat out of Dutch Harbor.

He survived that, one of the world's most dangerous occupations, thankfully, reutrned home, married and got a job as an IT internet programmer for a medical records company.

He now makes just under six figures, has two lovely kids whom he reads to and puts to bed every night and is very happy. I guess I gave him the right advice.

I don't know why this is relevant. I guess your post made me feel blessed and grateful for his success.

I wish you the best.

Paul

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donuway
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Rick,

After 34+ years in the industry, I could have told you that trucking sucks! Like most industries, unless you are in the "right place", it was a lot more fun in the pre-dereg days.

Like the airline industry, the companies that are survivng are the ones that were/are managed very well, started up right around the time of dereg, or weren't bought by people who didn't know how to run them.


Don

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NoWake
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Thanks for the kind postings guys.

I guess what I was trying to say is....sure someone will always have it worse off as well as there will always be someone who will have it better. But it still does not make what happened to the TWA pilot group right. No one should tell anyone not to be angry or hurt just because someone else has it worse off. Everyone is entitled to their own feelngs.

It is also hard to believe that after flying the 767/757, 717, MD80, 727, and 737 not to mention the overseas flights I do not have the experience.

Thanks
Rick

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jpp
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Hello Rick, thanks for the good posts.

I agree with you 100%, and I've readily admitted that sometimes the attacks against me have caused me to post without really thikning through what I was writing. For this I apologize, and I am man enough to tell Gary Hawk publicly that I apologize. (and to all other TWA pilots I might have offended as well - sorry.)

Gary's style is to ignore whatever I say - both on this board and through private email. I guess his message is clear enough, but since I know he reads what I write, I'm satisfied knowing that he understands my point of view as well. And that's all I need. (His response to this statement will be in the form of a long winded post directed to someone else, while publicly ridiculing me using that third party. And that's OK.)

Anyways, the reason I, and several of you, have tried to reach out to him is simple - we all have public knowledge that the Hawkman was, and is, a decent guy to begin with. And when you know someone that decent who starts acting completely out of character, you try and understand why that is. In this case, it is a matter of pure hatred anytime the AA name is brought up - whether it be someone like me, who tries to "mend fences" (as impossible as that will be!), or an AA commercial, or a news article mentioning the APA - anything like that will trigger an extremely unpleasant reaction that is completely out of character.

The important thing is to recognize that reaction and never forget that the person you really know is still there. I do realize that, despite never having known Gary, everyone I've talked to who knows him and his wife have nothing but good things to say about them.

Coming back to the topic, Rick, yes, I do care. While I never flew at TWA, I felt like I had several ties with the airline, both as a customer/frequent flier, and as an employment possibility while attending Parks College in the 90s. I had more than a few friends get hired over there, and I always saw myself eventually getting hired there as well. While the job never materialized, nevertheless the impact that this merger had on your pilot group affected me more than the typical AA pilot because of the above reasons.

Some of you will forever hate me, despite never having met me, because of my association with AA. As you pointed out, Rick, whenever those people surface and make their hatred evident, I have to pause, stand back, and tell myself that had I been in their shoes, I most likely would feel some animosity as well. Hopefully not hatred, but definitely some animosity. And so the story goes.

So that's why I felt compelled to post on good ol' SJ. Never with the intention of mocking your fine pilot group - but rather, to share some of my experiences with the TWA pilots I've had the pleasure of knowing. Obviously, a minority of you will view my posts as taunts, or whatever - they're not. But who am I to convince you?

And finally, Rick, I wish you all the best in getting back into this career. If I can ever help you, I will in a flash - and to any other pilot as well. After all, I broke into this career with a lot of good folks helping me out as well. And after all of the drama you guys had to go through, it would be the least I could do.

v/r,
jp

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NoWake
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quote:
Originally posted by jpp:
In this case, it is a matter of pure hatred anytime the AA name is brought up - whether it be someone like me, who tries to "mend fences" (as impossible as that will be!), or an AA commercial, or a news article mentioning the APA - anything like that will trigger an extremely unpleasant reaction that is completely out of character.


My wife and I still "flip off" the television set every time American is on or when they run their promo at the Blues games.

I am sure we are not the only ones venting. Just right now we are the only ones talking publicly about our feelings. [Wink]

Thanks for your offer.
Rick

[ 04-20-2006, 10:53: Message edited by: NoWake ]

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Gumby
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob H:
On behalf of most former TWA pilots I know.. My apology for the angry and mostly inaccurate words expressed here by Gary Hawk.....
.........Bob Herbst
OZ/TW/AA and proud to say I wore wings for all of them.

Bob H.,

Gary's words may be angry but I beg to differ on "mostly inaccurate" or don't you recall the comments of "Kmart" and "Hotdog vendors" by AA pilots. His parody of the next integration was spot on as how we were treated. You may be sitting in STL but the majority of TWA pilots were scattered to the winds by the "fair and equitable integration" and "reasonable best efforts". Mike Ettel and you may grouse about the TWA/OZ merger, but in comparison, was DOH with fences. If the airline had grown at that time, you would not have lost that left seat. We,on the other hand, lost the entire seat.

Not angry anymore(yeah, right)

John

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DC9
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Well said and hopefully a lot of people will heed your words.
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Bob Ritchie
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Tammy,

God Bless you and your dear son. Your post just tore at my heart. I never knew Mark but, met you a couple of times at TWA and knew your dad a bit from my Pitts flying.

I cannot imagine the pain which you are forced to endure or how you manage to cope. You have always been a class act and I pray that you will continue the courage and strength to somehow go on and of course nurture your son.

Your advice to those of us so much more fortunate is right on. You remind us of what really matters in life and what is eternal.

I remember the darkest days at TWA when it looked as if there was no tomarrow for the airline. My wife and I sat across the kitchen table and anticipated our future. Finally we agreed..."we have our health, our love, our children and one another." "If TWA goes belly up" my wife added, "you can get a job as a lineboy and I'll work as a waitress at Denny's." "We'll sell the house; buy a prefab, invite the neighbors over for BYOB, BBQ and card playing." "We'll live like we did when we first started out!" "We had lots of fun even when we were poor. Right?" "The hell with Ichan....he cannot take away our love and happiness.


That was in 1990. From that day forward we lived one day at a time. We were free. We lived, laughed and loved. All the wealth in the world could not buy what my wife and I share. All the wealth in the world cannot replace what you have lost.

God... or fate;whatever you chose to call it, took a great love and light from your life. Most of us have loses which can never compare.

Thank you for the lesson of life. May your future bring peace, hope and once again much happiness.

Bob Ritchie

[ 04-23-2006, 15:30: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]

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Jim Elkan
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Bob,

Thanks for saying so well what we all would like to have expressed..No one could have said it better..

Jim

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zip
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Well said, Bob. We often forget the most important priorities in our lives and we also neglect to consider how things could be a lot worse for any of us.
God bless, Tammy.
[Frown] [Cool]

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T. Carmichael
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Well, it's so nice to be back... [Roll Eyes]

JPP--It's nice to see someone with a good attitude in aviation. Don't change.

Others--Prior to my displacement from the CA seat, all my FO's were headed out the door. I sympathized with them and tried to give them hope but I couldn't possibly know what they were feeling.

A year later, as I was headed out the door, I got the same platitudes from CA's who had never experienced what I was about to--being laid off with 15 year seniority and less than one year out of the CA seat.

They could not possibly know what I was feeling. Their paltry two year furlough as newhires did not qualify them as having walked in my shoes. Every newhire knows they are furlough-fodder.

That is why I foam at the mouth when CA's here and elsewhere tell Gary to "get over it". Sure, for his long-term health, I hope he does get over it. I know him and Colleen and I know their love for TWA and I know they won't "get over it".

But none of you here telling Gary and others to "get over it" have that right.

Until you've lost every single thing you've worked for over 20 years, you need to bite your tongue and get over the fact that he and a couple thousand like him will likely never "get over it".

No merger comes without cost. The cost to those still employed is the fact that those of us on the street will never be out of sight and, consequently, we'll never be out of mind.TC

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Skypilot
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TC,
I agree with your post, if you haven't been there you don't know what it's like. That being said, it has always been my thought that someone saying "get over it" to anyone who appears to harboring a great deal of hatred about something, is only trying to suggest to that party that no good can come from such hatred. It obviously is extremely difficult to do when one has been harmed as the TWA Pilots have, but nonetheless hate is almost a totally counterproductive emotion. While I, and many others, have not walked in the shoes created by this act, we all have experienced actions in our lives that may have conjured up great hatred, and subsequently had to deal with and get past it. As you said we all hope, for health, that everyone can eventually do that here.

DON

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Don Capt Skypig Foldy
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Hi Tamara! perfect.

Bob R: grrrreat perspective as well.

just to be known: I STILL and will always abhor "them" for what they COLLECTIVELY and in numerous instances SINGULARLY did to us...because..in the now INFAMOUS words of one of their OWN."because we could". I also abhor those of our own who have a knack for two sides of the mouth, depending on the audience. Oh...and the "get over it" crowd..ESP the ones who use that concurrently with how just AWful they have it with oz/TWA. puleeeeeeze.

I feel betta now...it's MY therapy!

[ 04-24-2006, 12:15: Message edited by: Don Capt Skypig Foldy ]

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Skypilot
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Skypig,

Your sense of humor gives away that your "therapy" is productive, though inquiring minds would like to know if it is accompanied by a clear liquid or a dark brown one! Mine is mandarin clear. Hope your family and work are all doing well.

DON

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Don Capt Skypig Foldy
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I dunno what color it is in the dark....all I know is that the liquid is "strong, steady-stream". LOL.

Which reminds me of when I used to be asked if I wished any coffee from the F/A's. Depending on the audience (F/A demographics to be more specific)...my first answer was...."sure...if it's made and if you have time...thanks!!!!" "How do ya take it, Capt'n Pig?"

"Just like my women, of course!"

The universal reply was "yeah, rrrrright. So it that black and hot, or light and sweet?"

"I don't care what color it is, as long as it's strong!". [Big Grin]

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7848
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quote:
Originally posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy:

Which reminds me of when I used to be asked if I wished any coffee from the F/A's. Depending on the audience (F/A demographics to be more specific)... "How do ya take it, Capt'n Pig?"

"Just like my women, of course!"

The universal reply was "yeah, rrrrright. So it that black and hot, or light and sweet?"


Being an L1011 FE, I answered, "Old and bitter".

One gal says, "Well, we've got plenty of them back there!"

Chuckled all the way to LHR.

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Don Capt Skypig Foldy
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honesty's the best policy, eh? they say admission is half the battle!
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chrispy
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I think most of the 2440 TWA pilots would have loved to get DOH just like the OZ guys got.

With DOH I wouldnt have been on this 10 year vacation, loss of my marriage, on unemployment twice and some other neat things.

Were any Ozark pilots furloughed for over three years with the possibility of recall as far off as 2013.

Classically, the APA leadership has agreed to raising caps and scheduling practices that will help to defer recalls. I don't remember the TWA pilots doing that to the 67 OZ pilots that were furloughed for approx a year.

Those saying to "bury the hatchet" have jobs and weren't stapled behind NAAtive pilots hired after the merger date (June 10th date vs. April 10th date of merger). Nor did their airline have wide-bodies and Int'l destinations. For those of us that got stapled, we have no medical, no passes and the chance of getting on the A300 or 777 is about as likely as inviting Don Carty to Christmas dinner.

Everyone I talk to in the industry comments on how selfish and greedy the APA and it's pilots are, so the "opinion of few" is shared industry-wide.

1995-hire - projected furlough 10 years.
Projected retirement MD80 reserve F/O

"Don't worry how they integrate you, you're getting a huge raise"....Famous quote from a TW/OZ Capt.

Missouri unemployment pays $250 a week. I don't know if I'll be able to spend it all in a week.

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by chrispy:
I think most of the 2440 TWA pilots would have loved to get DOH just like the OZ guys got.

With DOH I wouldnt have been on this 10 year vacation, loss of my marriage, on unemployment twice and some other neat things.

Were any Ozark pilots furloughed for over three years with the possibility of recall as far off as 2013.

Classically, the APA leadership has agreed to raising caps and scheduling practices that will help to defer recalls. I don't remember the TWA pilots doing that to the 67 OZ pilots that were furloughed for approx a year.

Those saying to "bury the hatchet" have jobs and weren't stapled behind NAAtive pilots hired after the merger date (June 10th date vs. April 10th date of merger). Nor did their airline have wide-bodies and Int'l destinations. For those of us that got stapled, we have no medical, no passes and the chance of getting on the A300 or 777 is about as likely as inviting Don Carty to Christmas dinner.

Everyone I talk to in the industry comments on how selfish and greedy the APA and it's pilots are, so the "opinion of few" is shared industry-wide.

1995-hire - projected furlough 10 years.
Projected retirement MD80 reserve F/O

"Don't worry how they integrate you, you're getting a huge raise"....Famous quote from a TW/OZ Capt.

Missouri unemployment pays $250 a week. I don't know if I'll be able to spend it all in a week.

Hello Chris,

Your conclusions above aren't even close to the projections I show for you.

Would you mind explaining to me how you come up with:

1. 10 year furlough? (I show approx ~6 years)

2. Your suggestion of never getting to the 777/A300? (My projections show you with a ~500 AA seniority number in 2027 when you turn 60).

3. Your comment above- "Projected retirement MD80 reserve F/O"? My projections show you as a STL S80 CA in ~2017,, A 767 CA (AA system) in ~2020 and a 777 CA for your last ~couple of years.

4. Referring to your quote from above; "Classically, the APA leadership has agreed to raising caps and scheduling practices that will help to defer recalls... I've researched APA's history and I can find ZERO evidence of this occuring.. Could you please explain when this supposedly happened?


=============

I haven't noticed any pilots telling any other pilot to "get over it".. I have noticed that some of us question the validity and usefullness of blaming 100% of the AA/APA pilots for what has unfortunately happened to so many pilots after 9/11.

I'll also add that it is very common that so many (TW) pilots who were never here for the TW/OZ integration (you were hired over 11 years after the 1986 OZ/TW integration) are so inaccurate in their presumptions and analysis of what DID happen to the junior two thirds of the OZ pilot list. It sounds a lot like you're saying.. "OZ pilots should be happy for what happened to us (junior two thirds) and for what the TW pilots/Icahn gave us? [Smile] [Smile] "

As a 1986 displaced DC9 OZ CA and a ~22 year TW FO I still consider myself incredibly fortunate for what this profession has provided for me.. No doubt many had it better and obviously many have had it worse than me.

I will add that you are correct that none of the OZ pilots furloughed in 1986 were furloughed as long as you will be (Note: There were 86 OZ pilots immediately furloughed and 32 DC9 OZ CA's displaced when TW pilots agreed with Icahn to take the OZ MD80's in 1986 while ZERO TW pilots were furloughed/displaced. Using the DOH integration, within 3-4 years, 73% of the former OZ CA's had been displaced to a JUNIOR FO position).

It should also be noted that in 1986 and the time period the OZ pilots were furloughed/displaced.. There was no 9/11 tragedy which caused the industry/profession devastation that has affected nearly every airline with unprecedented furloughs and economic devastation.

Wishing you well,

Bob H
Projected 36 year career with over 20 as FO and a AA seniority number of 4000+ when I retire in 2010.

[ 05-04-2006, 06:33: Message edited by: Bob H ]

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757orBust
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Tammy,

Let me add my sympathies to those expressed by Bob Ritchie & others here. What a sweetheart you are and what fond memories I have of flying with you. Life can be so unfair, it seems, to those that deserve so much more.

My Prayers are with you and your son, Mark.

Denny West

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dave carr
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Hello Bob

As always I enjoy reading your posts and find them quite interesting. Our careers will turn out to be somewhat similar. I also had almost 36 years with 20 as F/O and 16 as Captain. Fortunately I didn't end up as #4000 and was lucky enough to have been able to fly the L1011 and 747, but I did end up retiring off the 767/757 so maybe the comparison is more valid that might be readily apparent.

A quick question. I'm lousy with numbers (general math was the highlight of my math career) so don't laugh at my question. When the OZ/TWA merger came to pass I had 20 years seniority. Somewhere in my past I remember Bob Ritchie stating that 20% of the OZ pilot group were senior to me at the time of the merge and I was a junior md80 Captain with 20 years seniority. If my memory hasn't failed me and the % is correct that means that 80(+or-)OZ captains joined the TWA seniority list ahead of me. If this is correct how can it be that 73% of the former OZ captains became junior F/Os?

Hope all is well with you and family. As always, I wish you the best.

Dave Carr

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DC9
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Dave,
If my memory is correct there were about 114 OZ pilots senior to me when the merger happened.I believe there were about 450 OZ pilots total.I was hired April 7,1967.I was the first of my class to check out as Captain.I checked out in STL on 10/29/89.

[ 05-04-2006, 08:53: Message edited by: DC9 ]

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Bob Ritchie
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Dave,

Bob H. and Mike Ettel(now very ill) have the OZA/TWA statistics.

Now to more important issues. I seriously injured my left knee in Feb. while hiking/backpacking over numerous steep ridges. Just trying to behave as a 19 year old! Have been limping and recovering ever since. No Machu Picchu in my near future...if ever.

How are the plans going for you and the grandson concerning your hike this summer?

Bob

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Bob H
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quote:
Originally posted by dave carr:
Hello Bob

As always I enjoy reading your posts and find them quite interesting. Our careers will turn out to be somewhat similar. I also had almost 36 years with 20 as F/O and 16 as Captain. Fortunately I didn't end up as #4000 and was lucky enough to have been able to fly the L1011 and 747, but I did end up retiring off the 767/757 so maybe the comparison is more valid that might be readily apparent.

A quick question. I'm lousy with numbers (general math was the highlight of my math career) so don't laugh at my question. When the OZ/TWA merger came to pass I had 20 years seniority. Somewhere in my past I remember Bob Ritchie stating that 20% of the OZ pilot group were senior to me at the time of the merge and I was a junior md80 Captain with 20 years seniority. If my memory hasn't failed me and the % is correct that means that 80(+or-)OZ captains joined the TWA seniority list ahead of me. If this is correct how can it be that 73% of the former OZ captains became junior F/Os?

Hope all is well with you and family. As always, I wish you the best.

Dave Carr

Hi Dave,

**PLEASEE** This info is in NO way meant to "stir" anything up.. The OZ/TW thing happened 20 years ago and while we may not forget it happened, WHAT happened never enters my mind anymore.. TWA pilots taught me a LOT and I gained many friends because of TWA.. You, Denny W and Jim C are just three of the TW pilots I think a GREAT deal of.. I OFTEN get a private chuckle remembering our **MANY** Williker discussions with our daily golf group that ALWAYS ended in OZ/TW [Smile] battles [Smile] .. THEN we'd set up the tee time for the next morning and do the same thing all over.. I consider myself INCREDIBLY lucky to have those memories.. Did I mention I wasn't too thrilled with my Nov 1986 55% multi year pay cut?? [Wink]

Anyway, to your question-

Based on a very old file on my computer--

At the time of the TW/OZ integration there were-

2,904 TW pilots

544 OZ pilots.

The integrated TW/OZ list included;

5 OZ pilots in the top 7.3% (#1-250)

65 OZ pilots in the top 14.5% (#1-500)

111 OZ pilots in the top 29% (#1-1000)

141 OZ pilots in the top 43.5% (#1-1500)

157 OZ pilots in the top 58% (#1-2000)

176 OZ pilots in the top 72.5% (#1-2500)

210 OZ pilots in the top 79.8% (#1-2750)

61.4% (334) of the OZ pilots, including 90 OZ CA's were DOH integrated into the bottom 20.2% of the combined list (most junior 698 TW/OZ pilots).

---------------

As many know, the OZ CA's were provided a 3 year DC9/CA protection fence the end of which they were displaced based on their new integrated seniority. As I recall, for some OZ CA's the 3 years was extended to ~4 as TWA was not able to qualify (TW) pilots fast enough to replace the displaced OZ CA's. I and 31 other OZ DC9 CA's were originally included in the 3 year protected CA fence.. BUT, In late Oct in order to provide incentive [Wink] [Wink] to get the OZ pilots to "agree" to the TW integration demands, Icahn and the TW pilots took the OZ MD80's from OZ and placed them in the TW schedule effective Nov 1.. The "3 yr protected OZ CA" jobs were then re-calculated without credit for the OZ MD80's. This is the reason why 86 OZ FO's were furloughed and 32 OZ CA's were displaced out of the 3 yr protective cell to FO on 4 days notice. Note: ALL OZ DC9's and MD80's were in TW service through the late 90's.

Somewhere in box buried in my basement I have the old TW/OZ seniority lists and a lot of the integration specifics/corespondence, code a phones etc. It wasn't a pretty picture..

TODAY-- I COMPLETELY acknowledge that the ~300 TW pilots that were DOH after my OZ DH and are now junior to me have every reason to be pissed. Mergers/integrations ALWAYS screw some group of pilots. Sometimes it just takes a long time for it to happen.

WHAT most everyone does not know is that the OZ attorney in the 1986 TW/OZ merger is also the SAME attorney who represented the AA/APA pilots in the 2001 AA/TW merger integration.. I don't think it was just a coincidence that the junior ~60% of the TW pilots were integrated into the 2001 AA seniority list at nearly the exact same percentage ratio as the junior 60% of OZ pilots were integrated into TWA in 1986.

Anyway, it's always great to read something from you old-timers [Smile] .. And thanks for the comments.. Although it should be noted that some TW pilots don't think much of my analytical knowledge or ?expertise?..

I hope all is well with you and your family..

SINCERELY-

Bob H (one incredibly lucky and thankful airline pilot)

[ 05-04-2006, 10:44: Message edited by: Bob H ]

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