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» Smilin' Jack   » Specific Airline Discussions   » TWA   » Hey y'all (Page 3)

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Author Topic: Hey y'all
Post Captain
Member # 2242

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Hi Bob,

Thanks for your facts.

First and foremost, I dont have a problem with the OZ Pilots in general. Most were excellent stick and rudder pilots and generally pleasant to fly with.

What I do have a problem with is pilots saying that the TWA pilots got what they deserved for what they did to the OZ pilots. Most of us that are on furlough were in high school or grade school back in 1986.

I respectfully contest that I will be hired back by furlough year number 6. That is 36 months from now. My records show that I am 1470 numbers below the water line which would require recall classes of approx 40 per month for the next 36 months. Nothing indicates to me that this is realistic. Recalls may start in 2008-2009, but it will take about 2-4 years in my opinion for my number to be recalled.

It may be a stretch that I will retire an md80 F.O, but I think it is equally a stretch that I will ever see a Capt position on any widebody at AA.

I read a letter written by Capt Ralph Hunter-APA MEC telling the pilot group how he has observed much debate involving the strong personalities for which we were hired at American Airlines. It went on to say that the APA is working closely with AMR management to become more efficient so that the furloughees will come back to a stronger airline. Sounds great, but pref bidding will only require less pilots to help offset retirements. Good for the people on the property...not so good for those of us on unpaid vacation. I'm sure you saw the letter from Ralph Hunter, I can try to reprint it here if necessary, it made it to

I clearly understand the effects the TWA/OZ merger had on your group. And in most cases, both sides get screwed-some worse than others. However,I see your post does not include the adverse affect that some of the more junior TWA pilots had to endure. My father was junior to many of the OZ pilots, and the merger delayed him upgrading from F/E to F/O until his 25th year of service with TWA.

I can understand that 70-80 of your pilots were on a year long furlough, but I did not ever see in your posts where a large majority of OZ pilots went from DC9 Capt to widebody International F/O and then finished their careers as widebody Capt.

I agree that we will disagree on this until the end of time, but don't ask me how the intergration went, ask the Delta pilots, Northwest, or United pilots and they will tell you that we got humiliated and raped by a greedy pilot union that was allowed by Don Carty to do so thus resulting in a management's dream come true...a divided pilot group. Or ask Ed White who refers to you as a hot dog vendor, kmart pilot...

Best Wishes, Bob



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Bob H
Post Captain
Member # 287

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Some of what you write I will agree with and some I don't.

Regarding your seniority projections.. AA has a LOT of retirements coming up. In fact in less than 10 years there will be close to 1,000 pilots per year leaving the list (includes age 60 plus 20%). In the later 2000's AA was adding over 100 NEW hires per month. To avg 40 recalls is not at all out of the question.

Using *MY* current May 1 AA pilot seniority list (Note: My list uses just active/furloughed pilots I.e., all known retirees flow thrus without class dates etc. have been removed).

There are currently 9,199 pilots working.

Using ONLY age 60 attrition; (Note: History shows age 60 plus 20% for annual attrition).

You will be:

AA Sen #9466 12/31/2009

AA Sen #7049 12/31/2015

AA Sen #3641 12/31/2020

AA Sen #752 in 2027 on your 60th birthday.

Supp CC shows you as a S80 CA in STL in early 2017.

767 CA's have a current system seniority at ~4100.

MANY 777 CA's are junior to sen #1000.


If you have any other data that disputes mine, could you please provide it. It's easy to pick any worse case possible scenario you chose. In spite of what you may hear/read on the other web site, (I was kicked off of it ~3 years ago), AA's annual revenue increase has outperformed most of the industry for 3 years in a row. In fact AA (mainline) has outperformed all of the legacy carriers in most every category.

I'd be happy to provide you any info you want that can be easily verified. I am confident you will find the REAL data considerably different than what you will read and is rumored on the anti AA/APA web sites.

Bob H

[ 05-04-2006, 20:08: Message edited by: Bob H ]

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dave carr
Post Captain
Member # 783

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Originally posted by DC9:
If my memory is correct there were about 114 OZ pilots senior to me when the merger happened.I believe there were about 450 OZ pilots total.I was hired April 7,1967.I was the first of my class to check out as Captain.I checked out in STL on 10/29/89.


This is why I questioned Bob concerning the 73% figure that he used as the percentage of Ozark Captains that somehow ended up as junior first officers. Maybe he meant to say former Ozark pilots instead of former Ozark captains. I'm lousy at math but that would seem more reasonable. He didn't address this in his last posting.

Dave Carr

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dave carr
Post Captain
Member # 783

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Originally posted by Bob Ritchie:

Bob H. and Mike Ettel(now very ill) have the OZA/TWA statistics.

Now to more important issues. I seriously injured my left knee in Feb. while hiking/backpacking over numerous steep ridges. Just trying to behave as a 19 year old! Have been limping and recovering ever since. No Machu Picchu in my near future...if ever.

How are the plans going for you and the grandson concerning your hike this summer?


Hi Bob

I'm so sorry to hear about Mike Ettel. I don't think that I had the pleasure of working with him. It's so sad to hear of him and Mike and Grant and others that are struggling.

Also sorry to hear about your knee. I know you were looking forward to trekking the Andes. My trip is still a go. I'm on my way to Peru on the 15th of May and will stay there until the middle of July. My wife, daughter and I are involved in a medical mission to Cajamarca at the end of May. After the mission I'll go north to Chachapoyas, Kuelap, then over to Chiclayo and down the coast to Lima. In the middle of June my grandson will meet me in Lima and we'll travel to Cuczo and Macchu Pichu for a week, on down to Puno for a few days, on to Arequipa for a week, then up to Huaraz for 10 days or so including 5 days of the Santa Cruz trek. We'll only go up to 15,000 ft. I'm no mountain climber.

Not to bore you but I just got home from a litle adventure. A retired AA friend owns a little Avid Magnum that he sold to a fellow in Foristell, Mo. He "conned" me into helping him fly it from SEA to STL. We got as far as Logan, Ut. and agreed that we had enough adventure for one trip. The new owner is as we speak having the plane flown to his home strip. Why we bailed in Logan is a long story with nobody hurt and no damage to the aircraft. Just a couple old aviators just making a very conservative decision. We had a great time and it really makes me appreciate the little 120 that I have the pleasure to fly.

Hope you're still enjoying your flying and that the family is well.

Dave Carr

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Junior Poster
Member # 2163

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Originally posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy:
I dunno what color it is in the dark....all I know is that the liquid is "strong, steady-stream". LOL.

Which reminds me of when I used to be asked if I wished any coffee from the F/A's. Depending on the audience (F/A demographics to be more specific) first answer was...."sure...if it's made and if you have time...thanks!!!!" "How do ya take it, Capt'n Pig?"

"Just like my women, of course!"

The universal reply was "yeah, rrrrright. So it that black and hot, or light and sweet?"

"I don't care what color it is, as long as it's strong!". [Big Grin]

My favorite response was "Full Bodied"
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IA Farm Boy
Post Captain
Member # 2024

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The best one I've heard was "cold and bitter!"
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Post Captain
Member # 430

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Originally posted by Bob H:
**PLEASEE** This info is in NO way meant to "stir" anything up.. The OZ/TW thing happened 20 years ago and while we may not forget it happened, WHAT happened never enters my mind anymore.. TWA pilots taught me a LOT and I gained many friends because of TWA..

At the time of the TW/OZ integration there were-

2,904 TW pilots

544 OZ pilots.

The integrated TW/OZ list included;

5 OZ pilots in the top 7.3% (#1-250)

65 OZ pilots in the top 14.5% (#1-500)

111 OZ pilots in the top 29% (#1-1000)

141 OZ pilots in the top 43.5% (#1-1500)

157 OZ pilots in the top 58% (#1-2000)

176 OZ pilots in the top 72.5% (#1-2500)

210 OZ pilots in the top 79.8% (#1-2750)

61.4% (334) of the OZ pilots, including 90 OZ CA's were DOH integrated into the bottom 20.2% of the combined list (most junior 698 TW/OZ pilots).

This is the reason why 86 OZ FO's were furloughed and 32 OZ CA's were displaced out of the 3 yr protective cell to FO on 4 days notice. Note: ALL OZ DC9's and MD80's were in TW service through the late 90's.


Great info. I have a question regarding the 86 furloughed OZ pilots: How long was their furlough, and are they still working at AA?



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