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Author Topic: Another Airline gone...ATA
XHNLEIC
Post Captain
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ATA shut down today and laid off all of their employee's. Another sad day for our fellow airline employee's.

http://finance.myway.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?news_id=ap-d8vqdh400&

United and UsAir expect a huge revenue increase when they start charging $25.00 for each additional checked bag over one.

It will only be a matter of time when all the airlines follow suit.

Remember folks, you can only check in one bag free...all the rest will cost you....on UA and USAir effective May 1.

Posts: 190 | From: Laughlin/Bullhead City/Honolulu  |  IP: Logged
Roger Moore
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Theyre droppin like flys. Whose next???
Posts: 194 | From: Wildwood,Mo  |  IP: Logged
extwacaptain
Prop Wash
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Back To The Drawing Board........ [Big Grin]

This year marks the 30th anniversary of the Airline Deregulation Act.........

Very few of our Nation's proud airlines have survived.

Thank you, ex-president Jimmie Carter.
I hope your peanuts are doing well.

Posts: 1157 | From: Encino, Ca. U.S.A.  |  IP: Logged
Irish
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Randy,

Don't forget Alfred E. Kahn, esteemed final chairman of the Civil Aeronautics Board.

"While he was serving as Chair of the Civil Aeronautics Board, he oversaw the deregulation of commercial air fares. At the same time the CAB was disbanded, as deregulation of commercial air fares made the agency no longer necessary. This is one of the only examples of a regulatory agency deregulating itself out of existence.

Kahn was considered to be a liberal Democrat which made his strong advocacy of deregulation somewhat unique and it stemmed largely from his understanding as an economist of marginal-cost theory. In an interview with USA Today[3], he said that he wished that he could have deregulated the telecommuncations industry." - Courtesy Wikipedia

I know you know this but some of our younger members may not remember this infamous "liberal democrat". As an aside, I was struck by the "liberal Democrat" label and wonder if you've seen the following:

A few days ago the Citizen's Against Government Waste presented their annual pork and earmark awards. With respect to the current candidates, John McCain was a sponsor or associated with zero earmarks, Obama with 62 and Clinton with a whopping 213 separate earmarks. [Mad]

Paul

Posts: 1634 | From: Hampton, NH  |  IP: Logged
Subsonic Transport
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NWA will begin charging for the second bag in May.I knew, as I'm sure we all do, that once one airline starts charging, the others will follow.

I never had the chance to fly ATA but I remember when working CO years ago, ATA would have an L-1011 charter in BUF. I clearly remember those cold mornings with all that smoke it generated while spooling up. And that low grade deep throated hummmmmmmm.

As a side note, there are no more 727's operating in BUF. About one month ago, FedEx stopped operating it from YOW-BUF-MEM and return. It was the only operator of the 727 for nearly 5 years. I always tried to watch it every night I worked because I always new the end was near. A 727 has a gracefulness that others just can't match.

While I never made it flying for the airlines, I'm grateful for meeting enough TWA personel in JFK that I was able to get 42 minutes in the 727 sim.

No matter how bad it gets, try to appreciate what you have, because tomorrow, with this industry, it may not be here.

Posts: 498 | From: Buffalo, NY  |  IP: Logged
mioguido
Post Captain
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quote:
Originally posted by Roger Moore:
Theyre droppin like flys. Whose next???

...as of Saturday, Skybus Airlines is the next to fold. and the hits just keep on coming. [Eek!]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/04/04/airlines.bankruptcy/index.html

[ 04-04-2008, 21:09: Message edited by: mioguido ]

Posts: 366 | From: CLE & The Space Coast  |  IP: Logged
Dick Nicklas
Post Captain
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Very few of our Nation's proud airlines have survived.

Thank you, ex-president Jimmie Carter.
I hope your peanuts are doing well. [/QB][/QUOTE]
************************************************

When I was a bit younger, there were at least five local breweries in NYC that, try as I might, I could not keep in business; Rheingold, Schaefer,Piels, Ruppert-Knickerbocker and Ballentine come to mind.

Much as I would like to blame GWB for their demise, that would be silly. They fell victim to "globalization" (Henniken,San Miguel, Kirn et al),consolidation, and probably, economization (I remember all the employees at Schaefer lost all their retirement in the restructuring).

About that time my dad drove a Nash Rambler and a flew years later I owned a Studebaker(into the lake)Lark. Packard, Nash, Hudson, Oldsmobile...al gone. Maybe I'll blame it on DDE. And today, many people in Detroit have or will lose a good portion of their life's investments. Thank the American consumer for shopping overseas.

Remember Western,Eastern, Southern, North Central, Lake Central, Trans Caribbean, PSA, Panagara, Peidmont and many more. I think it would be super-silly for me to blame Jimmie for their demise. We have had 3 Republican and 1 Democratic president since Carter left office and not one of them has come up with a constructive energy policy (Carter did install a solar energy system in the W.H. in 1979). That is what is killing the airlines and the country IMO.

I was in JFK Terminal 5 recently. What a great experience to fly on JETBLUE. Forward looking creative management, the desire to run a great airline, no money-grubbing owner and the lack of truly outmoded and intransigent labor contracts...that's why JETBLUE, under deregulation, is expanding and TWA is dead. Nothing personal Jimmie Carter, just business.

Posts: 164 | From: 4555 S. Landings Dr Ft Myers Fl 33919  |  IP: Logged
jeff shrewsbury
Post Captain
Member # 2910

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Great post Dick. Right on the money!

You mentioned many airlines lost to memory.

Enjoy this clip. (Turn up the sound. You may have to scroll down a bit once the music starts)

http://www.airlineempires.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=112&Itemid=88

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Irish
Post Captain
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Dick,

Your post brings back nostalgic brand memories but tying the nation's woes solely to the lack of an energy policy ignores the reality that the demise of many of the companies you mentioned was a direct result of rapacious money managers; hedge funds, junk bond salesmen, corporate raiders and all the other sleaze bags who are eagerly willing to sacrifice all human considerations to gain the final nickel on the table. Do you really think that these financial weasels operate in a vacuum, without any help or support from politicians and government hacks?

I can't believe you're that naive.

Paul

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Dick Nicklas
Post Captain
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quote:
Originally posted by Irish:
Dick,

Your post brings back nostalgic brand memories but tying the nation's woes solely to the lack of an energy policy ignores the reality that the demise of many of the companies you mentioned was a direct result of rapacious money managers; hedge funds, junk bond salesmen, corporate raiders and all the other sleaze bags who are eagerly willing to sacrifice all human considerations to gain the final nickel on the table. Do you really think that these financial weasels operate in a vacuum, without any help or support from politicians and government hacks?

I can't believe you're that naive.

Paul

************************************************

Thanks for trying to set me straight Paul but if you read the post again you'll notice I mention GLOBALIZATION, CONSOLIDATION, "ECONOMIZATION" and the lack of national brand loyalty on the part of the American consumer before I mention fuel prices.

I then go on to mention greedy owners etc. One of the things that make this country great is that we are all free to believe what we want even though that might tend to make others believe that we are naive.

Posts: 164 | From: 4555 S. Landings Dr Ft Myers Fl 33919  |  IP: Logged
Irish
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I knew you weren't naive, my friend. [Big Grin]

There's concern for Alitalia this week. [Eek!]

Paul

Posts: 1634 | From: Hampton, NH  |  IP: Logged
mioguido
Post Captain
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quote:
Originally posted by Irish:


There's concern for Alitalia this week. [Eek!]

Paul

i remember reading something about KLM breaking off talks with Alitalia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alitalia

[ 04-06-2008, 18:42: Message edited by: mioguido ]

Posts: 366 | From: CLE & The Space Coast  |  IP: Logged
Subsonic Transport
Post Captain
Member # 2139

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CO just announced that it too will charge 25 bucks for the second checked bag.

Who's to blame for all the globalization is the person you're looking at in the mirror. Let me give you my standard explaination.

I go to a store to purchase an air conditioner and I see two units on the shelf that are identical. The only visible difference is the price. We'll say one is for 100 dollars and the other is for 80 dollars. If you're like me, I'll buy the 80 dollar unit. Why would I buy the 100 dollar unit if the cheaper one is the same thing.

The non visible difference is that the 100 dollar unit was made in America and the other unit was made overseas. Probably China. Everything else is.

The 100 dollar unit reflects on our better standard of living. Better pay and health care among other things. But the problem is, we all want the better deal. We want the best pay but then turn around and try to pay the least.

The manufacturers are keenly aware of this and have to cut costs to meet the demand for lower prices. Walmart use to sell only American goods many years ago I think. But the continuing demand for the lowest price possible is forcing them to look outside the US. Although I will not shop at Walmart, I don't hold them fully accountable for whats happening either.

What we've done by constantly looking for the better deal is that we failed to reinvest in US products forcing companies to look elsewhere so they don't lose business to someone else. When we took our nice fat paychecks and then went out and got the best deal we all laughed and enjoyed the American way if life. The effects of that behavior is very effident now.

The other problem is, we are competing with ourselves 120 years ago. We were the emerging nation and our pay was nearly the same as China is today.

We have no one else to blame but ourselves. Me included.

Posts: 498 | From: Buffalo, NY  |  IP: Logged
Gumby
Post Captain
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I hate to throw in a shameless plug for myself, but since Skybus was mentioned , does anyone know someone at Ferro Corporation in CLE? There is one slightly used pilot looking for an in. It's either that or chinese food is looking kind of good!

Gumby

Posts: 522 | From: Litchfield, Ohio  |  IP: Logged
Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
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Subsonic,

What you say is true in most cases. Even however if one tries to buy American and is willing to pay the higher price....often the product is no longer available.

For many years I would challenge shopkeepers when a U.S. made product was not on their shelves. I gave up 15 years ago when it became hopeless.

The consumer is not always to blame for choices. Sometimes it is just plain greed on the part of producers. Let me give a fairly recent example.

For decades I have owned and used fine Cross Pens. Not only the ball point models but fountian pen types. Over the years I have lost probably a dozen of the less expensive silver or gold ball points and one expensive gold fountian pen. As one would become lost I'd always replace it quickly. Each replacement was equal in quality to it's predecessor.

I had a beautiful matched gold set: fountian and ball point, which I wore with my TWA uniform. When I qualified on American Airline's certificate,my wife presented me with a beautiful, sterling silver set of Cross pens; one ballpoint and one fountian pen. She said that my gold ones clashed with the silver insignia of AA. I carried them in my uniform shirt pocket on my flights.

A little over a year ago while going through security at LAX my ball point got lost in the shuffle. So I ordered a new one from Cross....expensive@ $215.00

When I recieved the replacement pen something felt a bit different when placing it in my hand. Not quite the same weight or heft.

I turned the box over and sure enough....MADE In CHINA!! I was furious and immediately placed a phone call to their corportate headquarters. "Someone sent me a counterfeit Cross Pen." I told the service rep. "This piece of crap is made in China and I know that Cross Pens have been proudly made in America since 1847!"

"Mr. Ritchie," she replied. "As of January this year....Cross has moved their manufacturing facilities to China."

A couple of weeks later I check the Cross Web site on the internet. Guess what? They had raised the prices on their Chinese made ink pens $5.00 above the last listed price of the U.S. made pens!

Greed....pure corporated greed.

On top of that some LAX based TSA agent is walking around right now with one of the last, honest to God, U.S. made, sterling silver, ball point pens. May they enjoy it as did I.

Bob Ritchie

Posts: 1936 | From: Warren County, Missouri  |  IP: Logged
Irish
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Damn and double damn! [Mad] I;m going to be doubly careful with my two Cross sets.

Paul

Posts: 1634 | From: Hampton, NH  |  IP: Logged
XHNLEIC
Post Captain
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Subsonic...
You said... Although I will not shop at Walmart, and have your reasons you also must understand that many of us do shop there. Nothing we are ashamed of either.

As an agent, EIC and a zillion other positions with TWA for 32+ years I'll wager that you haven't a clue of what my pension is...well, I don't mind telling you. A whopping $751.00!!!

My husband, ramp service, commissary for 33 years [now don't be jealous] a whopping $551.00!! By the way if one of us dies the other looses their retirement. We could not afford to get less a month so that was our choice.

Now, add that huge sum to our SS and you are looking at two Wal*Mart shoppers that probably would have purchased that $80.00 A/C vrs the $100 A/C as that $20.00 could add gas to our car.

True, we too can accept some of this blame but our CEO's, Government, Politicians etc...are the true culprits.

Remember when we all hired in and used to receive our "Benefacts" [?] [sorry I cannot remember how it was spelled] statement that was this beautiful brochure that explained what we would be receiving when we were at retirement age?

Well I do...a single parent of three small children I was thrilled, excited and honored to work for TWA and vowed I would never leave them. Their promises of my future were so wonderful and hopeful.

I need not go through all that happened to us in those 32+ years as we were all "in that together" such as pay cuts, give-backs, ESOP plan, layoffs and the list goes on.

Why do we buy China products? Well, today, unfortunately cannot find too many American made but it is certainly not because we are not loyal Americans.

We drive a small, economy car...how many can say that? We live near the Colorado river. Do you know how many SUV's pulling Ski-Do's, huge boats we see coming here on the weekends? All gas guzzlers...I guess they can afford the $4.00+ diesel fuel [and most of them drive up from So. Calif.]

Unfortunately we haven't the luxury for those "toys" so we shop at Wal*Mart.

On a side note, my son has his own business that started over 20 years ago in his living room with his girlfriend from U.C.L.A. At one time they were in INC. magazine for the top entrupeners of that year. He could honestly and proudly say his product was "made in the USA". Slowly, the cost for the materials went "up, up and away" until he had no choice but to get the material from overseas or go out of business.

He has done everything to make this business viable but I am afraid for him as he can barely hold his head above water. Insurance for his employees has skyrocketed, material costs have skyrocketed but the customer has not.

He too shops at Wal*Mart [or anywhere where he can get the best price]....China made or American it doesn't matter anymore...feeding his family does.

He told me the other day he will never be able to retire. How sad that makes me feel.

I know this is long but I just had to let you know and understand not all of us has the luxury of "not shopping" Wal*Mart.

Posts: 190 | From: Laughlin/Bullhead City/Honolulu  |  IP: Logged
Subsonic Transport
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Until recently, I know what it's like to pinch pennies. Keeping the thermostat set so low that I have to sit in the freezer to keep warm so National Fuel doesn't drain my bank account. Walking through a hobby shop and not being able to purchase anything because I can't justify the cost. Still driving a 12 year old Saturn SC2. It actually gets better mileage than most new cars.

I've been in the airline business a long time as well. It has not even come close to what I had dreamed of. I wanted to fly for United Airlines since I was a little kid but 40 years later I'm just a skycap trying to keep my foot in the door.

I suffered two accoustic neuromas which trashed my hearing which in turn grounded any hopes of flying commercially. I still have my private, thank God. Try and get a quality job in the airlines when you tell them you can't hear. The great SWA and Jetblue won't hire me for ANYTHING because I can't hear. Even with all the experience I gained with CO and TW over the years before I lost it. Only the contractor for NWA offered me a job last year. I new more about PARS then the new hires.

Recently, my financial picture has changed dramatically. I no longer have to live in a mobile home freezing my ass off. Later this month I'm moving into a house for the first time. I don't have to worry about putting gas in the car. But ya know what, it cost me. It cost me my brother.

I know what you feel!

By the way, the new definition of SUV is:
Sucking Up Venezuela

Posts: 498 | From: Buffalo, NY  |  IP: Logged
extwacaptain
Prop Wash
Member # 381

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quote:
Originally posted by Irish:
Damn and double damn! [Mad] I;m going to be doubly careful with my two Cross sets.

Paul

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Captain Paul,

Don't worry.....should you lose one of your Cross pens!

Between those given to me as "gifts" from our passengers and the many my wife has picked up at garage (estate) sales we can probably find a perfect match for you at a "very good" deal. [Wink]

Please advise the color of your ensemble when ordering. [Roll Eyes]


A friend

Posts: 1157 | From: Encino, Ca. U.S.A.  |  IP: Logged
Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
Member # 1035

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Subsonic,

First let me offer my heartfelt condolence upon the loss of your brother. I could feel the pain through this mindless internet connection. May God rest his soul and may you and his loved ones find confort in the love that you have shared.

Reading your posts over the years I have come to feel that I know you at bit. That is very superficial of course. Yet there is appreciation of your passion for aviation in general and TWA in particular. It is a something to be admired and hopefully gives you pleasure.

I knew that you were/are a skycap and that you also had your pilot's licence. A while back I asked if you would consider an aviatior's career, as there is such a demand now with the regional/commuter airlines. You explained that physical problems had kept you from that dream. My heart ached for you as I share your passion and am eternally grateful for the 40 years of commercial aviation that were mine to enjoy. I have been so blessed and only regret that not everyone who shares our passion has been so fortunate.

God speed my friend. Vicariously you are up there among the contrails. Although I no longer make airline contrails: should you ever make it to Missouri or our paths cross....you are welcome to the controls of my Maule. We will share the skies together and talk of our common bond.

You can always contact me through Smilin Jack. It would be my pleasure to share a flight, dinner and fine cigars. It's on me.... [Smile]


Bob Ritchie

[ 04-08-2008, 19:35: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]

Posts: 1936 | From: Warren County, Missouri  |  IP: Logged
Subsonic Transport
Post Captain
Member # 2139

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First off, I'd like to apologise for my rant above. It was one of those days and I kinda snapped like a new wing in a test jig.

Bob, thanks for your reply and understanding. While I won't be leaving any contrails behind me at FL350, I'll have to be satisfied renting the "C-150-200" simulator leaving behind 100LL smoke.

Once things get settled down around here, I just may take you up on your invitation. Always looking for something new to explore. One thing I enjoy, is IFR. I follow railroads. You got railroads out there? [Smile]

Posts: 498 | From: Buffalo, NY  |  IP: Logged
mioguido
Post Captain
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well folks...here is the latest victim to file.

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200804111101DOWJONESDJONLINE000739_FORTUNE5.htm

Posts: 366 | From: CLE & The Space Coast  |  IP: Logged


 
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