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Author Topic: Video of FEDEX crash in Tokyo
Bob Ritchie
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6cMK9LUnzI
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Irish
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Wall Street Journal, March 23, 2009, 3:31 A.M. ET

Cargo Plane Crashes at Tokyo Airport

By ANDY PASZTOR

The type of FedEx Corp. cargo plane that crashed while landing at Tokyo's Narita airport Monday is infamous in aviation circles for being hard to control in high winds such as those reported at the time of Monday's accident.

Police officials said both of the pilots died when the McDonnell Douglas MD-11, a mainstay of international cargo carriers, burst into flames Monday morning after bouncing, catching a wing on the ground and ending up with its left side smashed on runway. Initial press accounts, including television news reports, said weather reports indicated winds were blowing about 40 miles an hour, and airlines had been warned about a risk of wind shear at the time of the accident.

Even as the first footage from the scene was being shown, aviation safety experts in the U.S. said the MD-11's long history of problematic, highly sensitive flight-control systems was bound to be one of the major early issues examined by crash investigators.

FedEx and other carriers around the world experienced a string of accidents and incidents over the years attributed to the MD-11's particular flight-control software. Nearly a decade ago, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration was worried enough about the issue to prod the plane's manufacturer to redesign such control systems to reduce the chances of sudden nose up or nose down maneuvers. Afterward, FedEx and other operators said the changes significantly enhanced safety by making the plane easier to control, particularly just before landings.

With the twisted wreckage still smoldering hours after firefighters doused the intense fire, U.S. and Japanese crash investigators began the task of finding out why the cockpit crew of the three-engine jet apparently lost control at the end of a flight that wire services reported had originated from Guangzhou in southern China.

According to wire service reports, television footage showed FedEx Flight 80 touching down shortly before 7 a.m. The rear wheels hit the tarmac, the jet become airborne briefly and then the nose hit the runway before the plane rolled onto its left wing. The 1980s-era jet immediately exploded into flames and skidded at high speed while spewing black smoke, before sliding to a halt off the side of the runway, according to these reports.

Among the issues investigators are expected to delve into are the speed of the landing, and what commands the pilots executed as the nose initially dropped and then pointed downward again before impact. MD-11 pilots over the years reported that the plane's flight-control systems tend to exaggerate cockpit commands to vertically change the orientation of the nose.

The crash closed down the longer of the airport's two main runways.

U.S. and most foreign carriers phased out MD-11s from passenger operations partly because of their high fuel consumption, but also because of the model's relatively short range for a wide-body aircraft. But some carries, including Delta Air Lines Inc., became disenchanted with the plane's often touchy handling. At one point, Delta's management took the unusual precaution of instructing all MD-11 pilots to manually fly the planes up to cruise altitude -- in order to better understand their handling characteristics. But with some software and other modifications, FedEx and other cargo carriers have come to depend heavily on MD-11 aircraft originally built for cargo as well as planes converted from passenger use.

During the 1990s FedEx lost two of its other MD-11s in landing accidents, and company pilots have regularly complained about the plane's tendency to touch down too hard or to pitch up after some landings. Other carriers have suffered MD-11 crashes due to fire, pilot error or trying to land in extremely bad weather. Following those accidents, the FAA devised tighter procedures for gauging the sensitivity of flight-control systems before approving new jetliners designs, as well as collecting information about the performance of existing fleets.

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Jeff I.
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I have a friend who flies MD11's for FedEx. (He's an ex-Navy pilot). Last summer I was having dinner with he and his wife and the conversation turned at one point to his current duties at FedEx. I don't know whether he knew the two pilots who tragically died in the Tokyo crash, however, he is doing the same sort flights as he alternates certain weeks doing domestic routes and then does international flights to Asia and Europe. In any event, I remember asking him about the MD11 because over the years I'd heard decidedly mixed reports on it. He actually liked flying MD11's but I did recall him saying that at times it was a bit more challenging to handle than other aircraft he has flown in the past. I'll be interested to get his take on this incident at the appropriate time (although I'm obviously not going to be contacting him for a while until things settle a bit).
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Irish
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Jeff,

I'm intrigued by this comment in the WSJ article: "But some carriers, including Delta Air Lines Inc., became disenchanted with the plane's often touchy handling. At one point, Delta's management took the unusual precaution of instructing all MD-11 pilots to manually fly the planes up to cruise altitude -- in order to better understand their handling characteristics.

That statement, curiously, is the antithesis of what was prefaced in the MD-80 flight handbook and, not remembering the precise wording, I paraphrase: "This aircraft is designed to be flown using automatic features. Pilots should hand fly the aircraft frequently enough so as to maintain proficiency".

Recalling videos which have circulated on wide-bodies fighting severe crosswinds at Hong Kong, for example, makes me wonder why this sort of accident does not happen much more frequently.

Paul

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Bob Ritchie
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Jeff I.,

Check your private messages.

Thanks,

Bob R.

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ss278
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Obviously this was a tragic accident and I do not have any idea what happened, that is for the authorities to determine. But to echo something Jeff said as well as the WSJ article, I have a friend who flew MD-11's at Swissair, he loved flying the plane but I remember him telling me at one point, "...you cannot get behind the curve on this airplane when landing it, it will eat you up."

God bless those who perished, their loved ones, as well as the entire FedEx family.

Jack

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Bob Ritchie
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Talking with...

....AA pilots who flew both the DC-10 and the MD-11....to the airman,they echo the sentiments suggested on this forum.

The DC-10 is described as "Rock Solid." Typical of a "True Douglas" airplane.

The MD-11? Well....."......"

bob

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Capn Eddie Ricketyback
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Ritchie:
The DC-10 is described as "Rock Solid." Typical of a "True Douglas" airplane. bob

Brings to mind the early history of the DC-10 vs. the L-1011. As you may recall, the DC-10 beat the 1011 into service by a year or two, and TWA opted for the 1011. It so happens I was among the first to check out in the 1011 (as a F/O) when we got it, and happily flew it for a few years until I moved up to 727 Captain. I may be biased, but I believe the 1011 was a much better machine, and a comparison of the safety record shows that it was safer by several orders of magnitude. Yet the DC-10 was a much more successful airplane, the 1011 causing both Lockheed and Rolls-Royce to file for bankruptcy, from which neither never fully recovered. You figure it out, I can't!
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Bob Ritchie
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Eddie,

I was just a pup when all that was going on but....it is my recollection that Rolls Royce was the culprit. If my memory serves me right they were late with the engine,thus causing the delay in delivery and subsequent difficulties for Lockheed.

The engine delay allowed Douglas to get a big head start on the smaller widebody market.

I never met an L-1011 pilot who did not love the airplane and consider it the finest machine they had ever flown....even if it eventually became unreliable and a maintenance nightmare.

Several airlines leased DC-10s and even 747s while waiting on the Lockheed.....most notably Delta.

Sitting in a Philadelphia bar in the very early 70s I struck up a conversation with a Delta captain who was rated in all three of the JUMBOs..DC-10, L-1011 and the 747. He claimed to be the first airline pilot in the world rated in all three. But the one comment that I will always recall was his statement that......"The L-1011 is so superior to the other two that there was no contest."

As to the Rock Solid Douglas. Well there are still DC-10s all over the world earning their keep every day. Rare, very rare is the L-10 still flying. DC-8s fly for UPS and many freight haulers every night. 707s have largly disappeared. And of course the DC-3 will still be flying when all the others have been turned into beer cans.

You spoke of the 727. Despite 15,000 hours in the DC-9/MD-80 and having retired on the 767/757, which are near perfect airplanes: my favorite airliner will always be the B-727 and the years it was my privilege to captain her.

Talking airplanes is almost like talking religion or politics. Certainly others may have views or facts which challenge those of mine.

Grateful always will I be for the rare privilege that was mine and that which remain. A wonderful wife, 5 incredible children, a 35+ year airline career, full retirement benefit and good health.

Enjoy,

bob

[ 03-26-2009, 14:50: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]

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chasmo
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There is a great book that is still available at Amazon that describes the politics of the race to build the DC 10 and the compromises that were made to beat LOckheed.

http://www.amazon.com/Destination-disaster-Tri-Motor-DC-10-flying/dp/0812906195/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

I highly recommend it.

Charlie

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mioguido
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i took a mockup tour of the L-1011 in 1969. i still have a copy of the Lockheed Star which has a host of articles about the L-1011...

L-1011 TriStar will take three minutes to unload
Calac to develop airborne navigation system
L-1011 TriStar engineered for unlimited fatigue life
TriStar jet significantly quieter than present-generation aircraft...high bypass ratio of new Rolls-Royce RB.211 engine with 40,000-lb of thrust
L-1011 will feature all-weather automatic flight control system

at the time of publication in 1969, TWA, Delta, Eastern, Northeast, Air Canada and Air Jamaica had orders for the L-1011
[Wink] i'm sure they're some TWA pilots that have some fond memories of flying the TriStar [Wink]

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Jeff I.
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Speaking of the all-weather navigation in the L1011's, I know I posted this story at least once before (maybe on the TWA Yahoo board???) but ...... I had an experience that demonstrated it back in the early 1990's. I was in SF wrapping up a business trip and had a mid-day flight scheduled back to JFK. I think I turned on CNN that morning from my hotel room and they were going on-and-on about the Noreaster that was going to pummel the east coast later that day. They were very vocal about checking with your airline if you had a flight scheduled to the east coast. So ..... I called TWA, they said the flight was still scheduled and that I should report to the airport (no big deal). Then ..... about an hour or so later, I heard on the news that United, American and others were all cancelling flights into NYC and Boston. I called TWA back ..... they said my flight was still on. I figured I'd end up going to the airport and they'd cancel when I was out there.

Well ..... we took off as scheduled. It was actually a beautiful day for flying ...... clear skies until we were coming over Lake Erie. At that point, the pilot came on, told us to buckle up, told the flight attendants to close down service and take their seats, etc. The skies soon turned absolutely black ...... for the remaining hour (I was in a window seat) there was virtually not visibility whatsoever. It was a bit of a rollercoaster getting into JFK but ..... the L10 performed superbly. When we touched down the passengers (and flight attendants) gave a rousing round of applause.

Anyway ...... I assumed the reason TWA felt confident in not cancelling the flight that day was that they were confident in the L10's capabilities to handle flying in that type of severe weather. It really was impressive.

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Capn Eddie Ricketyback
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Ritchie:
Eddie,

You spoke of the 727. Despite 15,000 hours in the DC-9/MD-80 and having retired on the 767/757, which are near perfect airplanes: my favorite airliner will always be the B-727 and the years it was my privilege to captain her...


Grateful always will I be for the rare privilege that was mine and that which remain. A wonderful wife, 5 incredible children, a 35+ year airline career, full retirement benefit and good health.

Enjoy,

bob

Bob, I too will always be grateful for my TWA career, which was cut short by my own decision to take the lump sum, 8 years before my mandatory retirement date, in 1986 after the Icahn buyout. Since my peak earning years were still ahead of me, I got a lot less than I would have had I stayed, and the airline survived a lot longer than I thought it would. However, despite that less-than-perfect timing, I have never had cause to regret that decision, as the past 23 years have been the best of my life for too many reasons to list here.

Re: The MD-80. I was among the first to fly that one for TWA too, being junior-manned to it in STL where I was flying 727s and not interested in training in another aircraft, even a shiny new one, for the same money. However, I always enjoyed flying it, and appropos Jeff I.'s story about being the only flight to get into NY in bad weather, I had a similar experience in the MD-80. We were going into Portland, Oregon one night, and the weather was 0/0. These were the early days of Cat IIIa, and nobody else was getting in there, but we did thanks to our certification for landing in those conditions. I had to get radar vectors to taxi to the gate! That was the only actual Cat IIIa landing I ever made during my career.

Finally, re the DC-10 accidents mentioned, I well remember them, and wondered at the time how an aircraft with such basic defects managed to get certificated, but what did I know, I was just a line pilot. I guess such things are more common than we know, but it does seem to be an injustice that a superb and safe aircraft like the 1011 went to an early grave while one that killed so many people due to these design defects is still flying, but again, what do I know?

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extwacaptain
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Jeff,

Thank you for your message. It is always a pleasure to hear
from you and to read your posts.

My opinion of the L-1011 is that it was undoubtedly the most advanced airliner in the skies for many years. Did I enjoy flying it?.........Not nearly as much as the Convair 880 or a few other airplanes. The only reason my last years were spent on that equipment was my chief pilot at the time (and I loved the guy) "rigged" the computer and would not allow me to return to the real flying......Lots of Take-offs and Landings on our short-haul flights.

Obviously my preference of flying conditions has nothing what-so-ever to do with which plane, the DC-10 or L-1011 was the "Best". Without having flown the DC-10, I cannot compare the two. My big brother did fly the DC-10 and after experiencing an oxygen fire in flight, (and other concerns at the time) bid back and finished his career on the Boeing 707.

Another plane mentioned in this thread was the 747. ......Well, there's another one I have not flown. One of our very finest flight instructors once said: "It's fun to fly once you get above 250kts." (Once above that speed, it's pretty much "straight and level" with an occasional standard rate turn) How exciting can it be?

I really have not cast much light on this discussion, so rather than say nothing, in my opinion, the 1011 was so great that it took much of the joy out of flying. Add to this the fact that the plane was used on the long, boring non-stop operation.

Probably, the most fun a pilot had flying the "big stuff" was going to the bank on payday.

Please accept the above comments as one guy's opinion, only and remember:

"Of All The Birds That Fly, The Parrot Talks The Best And Flys The Poorest" [Wink]

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Skyking
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The L-1011 was an amazing airplane.I flew it as an F/E and Rated F/O. Best airplane I ever flew.

When everything else was CAT3 with RVR 700/700/700, the Lockheed was 600/600/600! And the limits were lower overseas simply because they had better methods of measuring visibilitity.

The 1011 did not have a DH (Decision Height), they had an AH (Alert Height) ... even if you saw nothing at AH, you were going to land!

I was the F/E on a flight into Heathrow and we saw NOTHING until the nose wheel touched down, and then we saw the centerline lights rolling directly beneath us.

Tower said "Follow the green" and we followed taxiway lights to within a few feet of our parking gate. When I retired, JFK was still struggling to get a "Stop Bar" lighting system installed at crossing runways. Do they have it working now?

The old saw is "Lockheed designs airplanes, Boeing manufactures airplanes, and Douglas markets airplanes."

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Irish
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Since we're sharing L1011 stories I'll chime in with this one.

The Hudson River ditching reminded me of an L1011 takeoff at DTW bound for LHR. Jerry Burns was the captain and I was the F/O.

The initial takeoff run was uneventful but immediately after I called V1 a flock of seagulls rose up and we took a direct hit in the center windshield. Jerry and I both ducked involuntarily, the windshield stayed intact and he rotated the aircraft at Vr as blood, guts and feathers streamed across our forward-looking windows.

By the time we arrived in London most of the detritus was gone. We were very lucky that we were hit by only one gull.

Paul

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mioguido
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Randy,

i have two questions regarding the L-1011

1. was the Lockheed claim about unloading baggage in three minutes a realistic number for the L-1011 or was that just pr hype?

2. did most of the pilots in general conversation call it the L-1011 or the TriStar?

i remember flying in the L-1011 on some Delta and Eastern flights... had a mechanical in ATL that screwed things up. [Wink]

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extwacaptain
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quote:
Originally posted by mioguido:
Randy,

i have two questions regarding the L-1011

1. was the Lockheed claim about unloading baggage in three minutes a realistic number for the L-1011 or was that just pr hype?

2. did most of the pilots in general conversation call it the L-1011 or the TriStar?

i remember flying in the L-1011 on some Delta and Eastern flights... had a mechanical in ATL that screwed things up. [Wink]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dan,

If TWA was involved, the answer to your first is Yes. [Wink]

We called it the 1011.


A friend in LA

edited again, to add the smile [Big Grin]

[ 03-27-2009, 19:51: Message edited by: extwacaptain ]

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dave carr
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It's very interesting how a thread can start with one topic and end up in a completely different discussion. I have really enjoyed reading other's thoughts as to experiences with our TWA fleet.

As I don't know anything about the MD11 I would like to chime in with my impressions of the aircraft we flew at TWA. As I've stated in other posts I had the privilege of being a TWA Captain on all our jet fleet with the exception of the 880. They all had their great attributes but they also had some interesting challenges that seem to stick with me even after all these years.

What L10 pilot can forget flying the L1011 to R31 at LGA via the BQE with minimum visibility and a strong left X-wind. Talk about using Shea and any other landmark to get that monster in position. Was that DLC ever nice!! Now taxi to the gate in a jumbo at an airport designed for a DC3.---How about landing south in the MD80 at DCA via the river approach during low visibility at night with a strong southwest wind. You could be at or below 300 ft. in a 25+ degree bank.---I especially enjoyed the Canarsie to 31R (yes they sometimes did have us go to the right side)with low minumums in the 747 after a 12 hour flight from TLV.--Another real charmer could be a 5 flap takeoff from ABQ to the East on a hot summer day. Sandia looked pretty ominous.-- Another favorite was the ILS at Midway with a circle to land. This always happened with lots of wind and turbulence. The DC9-30's just loved this little adventure. What fun!!--Now, even though I flew the 707 I never had to do the ILS to the South and circle to land to the North at MKC. I understand this was lots of fun. I did do it in the 727 but maybe that doesn't count.

Now to finish boring you I'll cast my vote for my favorite airliner. The Boeing 747!!! The others were all GREAT but how can anything compare to the 747? Hey, it's just my opinion.

Dave Carr
PS It was great fun to taxi the 747 with the groaning and creaking body gear steering.

[ 03-27-2009, 20:54: Message edited by: dave carr ]

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Irish
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Dan,

As Captain Carr just demonstrated, most pilots I heard, myself included, simply referred to the plane as the "L10".

Paul

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jeff shrewsbury
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L10...number 1 for takeoff runway 31L JFK. Holding short for Concorde on final approach. As the concorde flew by us to land, the First Officer's windshield shattered!!. Back to the gate, flight cancelled.

My ex was a F/A on the inaugural TWA L10 flight in June 1972, STL-LAX. Lots of TWA, Lockheed, Rolls Royce VIPs aboard. She was given certificates, pins, etc. She gave me the stuff, she got the house, kid, dog, etc. [Eek!]

[ 03-28-2009, 08:00: Message edited by: jeff shrewsbury ]

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Bob Ritchie
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Riding Jumpseat....

...on the L10 from STL/LAX with our union chairman in the left seat.....bumping Mach .90 ATC says.... "TWA, can you pick up the speed a bit?!?"

Bob [Smile]

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Robert Dedman
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i enjoy reading all the comments above so I will add my 2 cents. I have loved EVERY aircraft I have flown. Each had its place and time and I agree with the L10 being a "fun" airplane to fly but for sheer enjoyment, I loved the 747. Gentle giant with BIG dials for us geezers. Great comments gents. Keep the blue side up. Cheers
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Rocky Dollarhide
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Captain Randy,

It has been my pleasure to meet, and work, with you! I thank you for all you have done for TWA and the aviation industry.

May God bless you always!

Rocky

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Subsonic Transport
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I've been lucky to fly on various TWA/TWE a/c. From the BE-1900c to the 747. But my favorite aircraft regardless which airline was flying it, will always be the 727. Although, I'm pretty happy no matter what plane I'm in as long as I get a window seat.

As I write this, I remember I did get some jump seat time on a CV-580 from Niagara Falls to JFK for a 13R arrival and a Saab340a from BOS to BUF on a very stormy day. Lots of red on the scope.

After replaying the video I noticed that the FedEx MD11 had all three gears on the ground before going nose up. You can't see the gear hit the ground because a parked a/c is blocking it but you can see the smoke from its touchdown. I reviewed it again to see if the horizontal stabilizer is viewable but it isn't. I was wondering if you could see if the elevators were pulled nose up or down. No matter what, it's a pretty nasty bounce not to mention the outcome.

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Glasspilot
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Dedman:
I have loved EVERY aircraft I have flown. Each had its place and time

I once flew with an F/O with a good attitude, he said: "My favorite airplane is the one I'm flying right now"!
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ss278
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One of my good friends went to work for Lockheed just so he could build that airplane. He was absolutely in love with it.

When I would visit him in LA he would always take me out to see the production line and we'd crawl in and out of the airframes and have a grand time.

He was slated to be the Lockheed rep on a delivery flight (-500 model) for British Airways and managed to wrangle me an invitation to go along. After the paperwork was completed we departed Palmdale on a flight to London. I remember how excited he was to show me the automated systems on board. Me, being a pilot at the time, well he thought I'd really be impressed. I was, but not in the way he probably thought.

The captain taxied the plane to the end of the runway, and advanced the throttles. The next time he touched anything was when he closed the throttles after the bird had landed itself at Heathrow, and we taxied to the gate. My friend was thrilled, I was just shaking my head. If this is what flying a big airliner was going to be about, well, I was glad to stick to my King Air.

Just one opinion. And I have to admit, as a passenger I disliked the airplane. I mean...those totally useless overhead bins! But being loyal to TWA, I'd fly on it anyway whenever I could.

[ 03-30-2009, 17:31: Message edited by: ss278 ]

Posts: 199 | From: Salt Lake City, Utah USA  |  IP: Logged
extwacaptain
Prop Wash
Member # 381

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Gosh....... [Roll Eyes]

A message seems to have disappeared.
Oh, well, Mr. Mark, I enjoyed your message concerning the L-1011 and share your thinking concerning automated flight.

It is my belief that autopilots are for those who REALLY do not enjoy flying.

Again, thank you for your loyalty to TWA.


Randy

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Dick Nicklas
Post Captain
Member # 934

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quote:
Originally posted by Dick Nicklas:
"It is my belief that autopilots are for those who REALLY do not enjoy flying."

********************

....or,upon occasion, for those who REALLY don't care if they get there on time.

***************

At least two flights that I was on got into CDG when everyone else was in LHR or SNN, thanks to the use of modern technology at the French airports and the "years ahead of their time L10 auotpilot and control systems".

Made a believer out of me.


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Robert Dedman
Post Captain
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While we are still on subject of aircraft, one of the great experiences I was privy to, was flying what PANAGRA called a Hyper-3 (T-Catagory DC-3.) It had R-2000 engines and in order to accommodate the added horsepower, they had to take a DC-6 prop, cut it down and modify it. This created another problem in the fact that the added length of the engine brought the prop arc circulation directly into the center of the front cargo loading door. This door had two safety locks to prevent its opening as it would have been right in the rotation of the prop. With the increased horsepower it allowed us to fly out of high altitude airports (13292ft. at La Paz), lose and engine and still meet T-category climb out. It cruised faster than a DC-4 but the added weight required the removal of one fuel tank. Nothing is for free. Also had two Jato bottles mounted so in case of early engine loss, you could accelerate to
single engine climb speed. The DC-3 could outrun the US Marines Super -3 and that bugged the heck out of them. We had not wheel covers etc. just horsepower and speed. Great bird. Pan Am designed the first A/C for the president and the rest was history. Have a few photos of the aircraft in case anyone is interested.

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Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
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Wow,

A pilot who rode on the delivery flight of a new L-10 and another pilot whose career spanned from Panagra DC-3s to TWA 747s. IMHO there will never again be such a transition in aviation within one generation.

What an incredible group of aviators and associates. Keep the stories coming! Spring is upon us and soon many of us will be outside and away from this forum.

Thanks, [Smile]

Bob

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B767300ER
Post Captain
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quote:
Originally posted by Irish:
As Captain Carr just demonstrated, most pilots I heard, myself included, simply referred to the plane as the "L10".

OK, you guys: Some nostalgia---
 -

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dave carr
Post Captain
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As I looked at this picture of the L1011 I was strongly reminded of a drive made some years ago. Departing the south rim of the Grand Canyon we passed a large bone yard as we motored south to take the interstate westbound. From quite a distance we could see many airplanes parked in the desert and as we came closer we could see a number of L10s in TWA colors. All were stripped of engines and any other parts that could be salvaged. Those hulks looked so abandoned. How sad it was to see flying machines that we flew with such pride and care left to such a sad fate. L10--one great flying machine!

Dave Carr

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Subsonic Transport
Post Captain
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One of my fondest memories working at JFK for TWE,was everynight after TWE OPS were done, I walk from Gate 39, across the ramp to Gate 17. Most nights an L-1011 was parked there.

I would deliberately walk underneath it to cast my gaze upward at that shiny lit up red tail. That always made my end-of-day much better. Randomly, a 767-200 would be parked at 17.

Then I would walk into the cage behind baggage claim and see how many bags didn't make TWE flights. I'd spend the next hour putting expidite tags on them and then "Y" messaging all the stations and advising them where the bags are and when they'll get there.

I miss working TWE at JFK.

[ 04-04-2009, 16:22: Message edited by: Subsonic Transport ]

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