Smilin' Jack


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Smilin' Jack   » Specific Airline Discussions   » TWA   » What Will the Black Boxes Tell Us..AGAIN!

   
Author Topic: What Will the Black Boxes Tell Us..AGAIN!
extwacaptain
Prop Wash
Member # 381

Icon 1 posted      Profile for extwacaptain     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maybe it will be a few weeks, maybe it will be a month before the results of the findings from the recovered “Black Boxes” from the Air Asia crash are released. Hopefully, that information will aid in preventing similar loss of life in future air travel.

At this moment, without being aware of any information to be obtained after their examination, it is safe to say the following: No airplane ever destroyed a thunderstorm, however, thunderstorms have been known to destroy airplanes and kill passengers and crews. Having said that, just maybe more thought should be given to the old “tried and proven” theory/policy of avoidance by planning and deviation. .........

And, our passengers should take comfort in realizing that pilots are paid by the hour, not to be heroes in attempting to fly thru thunderstorms.

Posts: 1157 | From: Encino, Ca. U.S.A.  |  IP: Logged
Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
Member # 1035

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bob Ritchie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A simple 180 has saved many a soul.....
Posts: 1936 | From: Warren County, Missouri  |  IP: Logged
Capn Eddie Ricketyback
Post Captain
Member # 3010

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Capn Eddie Ricketyback   Author's Homepage   Email Capn Eddie Ricketyback   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When I read that the Captain had asked for clearance to deviate around the weather and was refused I had a flashback to a little episode of my own in the late '70s or early '80s. We were enroute to one of the NYC airports in a 727 when there was a pretty nasty line of thunderstorms between us and our destination. Asked ATC for clearance to deviate south and was refused; asked to deviate north and was also refused. One comment I recall from them was that "other aircraft are getting through," or something like that. I didn't consider it to be worth the risk, so I landed at Harrisburg. After waiting a couple of hours took off again and uneventfully proceeded to our destination. I expected to be questioned about it when I got home but never heard anything. Wonder what the consequences would have been for that Captain had he done something similar? And wonder what that had to do with his decision to press on?
Posts: 328 | From: South Carolina  |  IP: Logged
Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
Member # 1035

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bob Ritchie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Way to go captain Eddie!
Posts: 1936 | From: Warren County, Missouri  |  IP: Logged
Bob Willcutts
Post Captain
Member # 434

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bob Willcutts   Email Bob Willcutts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Is not Thunderstorm avoidance similar to Stall Avoidance. We were always trained to recognize "approach to stall" and recovery procedures. We were not trained to fly into a stall and then recover.

We were trained to recognize Thunderstorm hazards, forecasts, turbulence, icing, pireps etc. We were trained to recognize approach to Thunderstorms and avoid (recover).

We were trained to declare an emergency if necessary to avoid any hazard to the safety of our aircraft, not succumb to the refusal of ATC, Dispatch, etc.

The nature of the Airbus Flight Control computers and systems creates a definite concern for an "upset" but the Emergency AD published does little to help.

Just my thoughts

Bob

Posts: 141 | From: Cabot, VT, USA  |  IP: Logged
Glasspilot
Post Captain
Member # 390

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Glasspilot     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Eddie Ricketyback:
I expected to be questioned about it when I got home but never heard anything. Wonder what the consequences would have been for that Captain had he done something similar? And wonder what that had to do with his decision to press on?

That depends on the culture at AirAsia and the country of Malaysia. Do they have "no penalty" wording in their FOP like "Go-arounds are free" or "land and wait out a thunderstorm (or do a 180)"? Maybe the Captain WOULD have been called into the CP office to explain a 180 and landing. I hope a culture of "pilot pushing" that we have long givin up in our country would be exposed by the cockpit voice recorder in this accident. We'll see.
Posts: 294 | From: Outer Banks, NC  |  IP: Logged
Subsonic Transport
Post Captain
Member # 2139

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Subsonic Transport     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have been reading a couple of books about WWII. One focused on the SW Pacific with B-17 crews flying between Port Moresby and Rubaul. The other about a pilot ferrying a B-17 across the Atlantic and then DC-3's near The Hump.

They both briefly mention tropical storms and their extreme intensity. In general, Some pilots made it through, some pilots turned around and some pilots never returned.

Posts: 498 | From: Buffalo, NY  |  IP: Logged
extwacaptain
Prop Wash
Member # 381

Icon 1 posted      Profile for extwacaptain     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Captain Rawl,

That fight you mention, which you conducted strictly by TWA's recommended procedures ("By The Book"), occurred during and under the leadership of our own "John Wayne" type Vice President of Flight Operations,rough and tough, Captain Ed Frankum.

We can be certain both he and others approved of your decision-making... or you Would have received that phone call.

Actually, you should have gotten a call saying: "Thanks for a very smart decision".

Posts: 1157 | From: Encino, Ca. U.S.A.  |  IP: Logged
ss278
Post Captain
Member # 244

Icon 1 posted      Profile for ss278   Email ss278   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
We've all heard it...There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.

Never did airline flying only charter work. If I couldn't go around, I turned around. Lost one job because of it. I didn't care.

Posts: 199 | From: Salt Lake City, Utah USA  |  IP: Logged
extwacaptain
Prop Wash
Member # 381

Icon 1 posted      Profile for extwacaptain     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A forgotten (until this subject came up) boring story about avoiding thunderstorms.

..It’s an old story, occurring during the Conair 880 days. Kinda similar to Captain Billy’s story in that the guy flying the airplane had only recently, once again moved over to the left seat.

The flight was LAX to STL. Weather forecast for STL...Possible TRWs. Approaching Kansas City, the latest STL weather reported heavy thunderstorm activity all over the area. A quick check on the actual MCI weather weather reported the lowest ceiling and visibility limits authorized for the Convair. After determining that the ceiling and visibility had been holding steady and all aircraft successfully completing their approaches, a request was made for a clearance to MCI for approach and landing Dispatch was advised. New alternate was added. AND, yours truly felt as if he had just received a hand full of aces in a poker game.

Oh, and Captain Frankum was on board, in First Class and had no objection to the operation.


an average TWA pilot

Posts: 1157 | From: Encino, Ca. U.S.A.  |  IP: Logged
upgrade lover
Post Captain
Member # 798

Icon 1 posted      Profile for upgrade lover     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Capt. Randy, your post brought this past flight on TWA to mind. It was one of the last DCA-LAX flights on the wonderful 757. Somewhere over the Midwest the Captain came on over the loudspeaker and said that there was some really bad weather ahead and he was going to go around it probably resulting in an additional ½ hour of flying time.

I was seated in the first row of the plane so I was able to hear what was about to happen in the galley area. A passenger in the row behind me walked up to the galley and in a loud voice complained to the flight attendant that he would miss his connecting flight to San Diego and she should inform the Captain to “go straight through” to LA. The flight attendant said that she had flown many years with the captain and if he said it was bad it was bad. This did not calm down the passenger. He kept it up and the flight attendant kept her cool. Finally the flight attendant said if this is not satisfactory to you sir, I will open the door and you can get out now. That shut up the passenger and he went back to his seat.

The flight attendant then went through the cabin with a smile on her face saying what luck we all had. There was an extra ½ hour of flying time so who wants another drink? The flight attendant was the wonderful Dodo Narz a TWA legend .

I do miss TWA and all the employees

Posts: 39 | From: capt randy's lax office  |  IP: Logged
thebear
Post Captain
Member # 349

Icon 1 posted      Profile for thebear     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Still remember a line from a TV comedy where a retired FA is working the ticket counter for a small commuter. A passenger complains loudly about how the WX delay will make her late. The FA says : "Would you rather be late, Mrs. Wilson, or the late Mrs. Wilson." Never had enough nerve to use that one in real life, but it always crossed my mind and gave me a silent chuckle.
Posts: 103  |  IP: Logged
Subsonic Transport
Post Captain
Member # 2139

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Subsonic Transport     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The talk of thunderstorms and TWA reminds me of a trip to SAN. It was just after the big Mississippi/Missouri River flood. 1992? It was 930pm departing STL on an MD80. At cruise, we flew along a line of TRW's. I assume we were in the 30's but these storms towered above us. The F/A turned off all the lights

Watching the lighting strike the ground was amazing. All I could think of was "Scorched Earth." It was so smooth. Not even a ripple. The wing never moved. One of the best flights I ever had.

Posts: 498 | From: Buffalo, NY  |  IP: Logged
extwacaptain
Prop Wash
Member # 381

Icon 1 posted      Profile for extwacaptain     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sir John (Upgrade Lover),

Well, Sir, you really know how to pick your crews and flights.....Dodo and the “Golden Girls” for flight attendants....Pilots in your cockpit who refuse to accept unnecessary challenges while conducting “passenger-carrying flights”, and last but not least, enjoying the very reason American bought TWA....those Maryland crab cakes for dinner on the westbound segment. [Smile]

Your presence in terminal 3 here at LAX always guaranteed that our employees were in store for some of their more enjoyable moments of passenger relations.

Your thoughts concerning avoiding hazardous weather ...greatly appreciated.

edited to add a smile
Randy & Sally

[ 01-27-2015, 10:59: Message edited by: extwacaptain ]

Posts: 1157 | From: Encino, Ca. U.S.A.  |  IP: Logged
Robert Dedman
Post Captain
Member # 366

Icon 13 posted      Profile for Robert Dedman   Author's Homepage   Email Robert Dedman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have a bad feeling that the recorders are going to give a carbon copy of the crash off Rio.
Posts: 406 | From: Virginia Beach, VA.  |  IP: Logged
Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
Member # 1035

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bob Ritchie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TAT encounter with monster storm. Different results.


http://www.littlebuttesbooks.com/1/post/2015/01/ford-trimotor-tackles-thunderstorm.html

Posts: 1936 | From: Warren County, Missouri  |  IP: Logged
Glasspilot
Post Captain
Member # 390

Icon 14 posted      Profile for Glasspilot     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Bob, Great article! Obviously that flight was lucky to survive. That Tri-Motor could have easily broken up just like AirAsia.
Posts: 294 | From: Outer Banks, NC  |  IP: Logged
Capn Eddie Ricketyback
Post Captain
Member # 3010

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Capn Eddie Ricketyback   Author's Homepage   Email Capn Eddie Ricketyback   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think this article contains the latest information about this crash that's available to the public.

This quote is particularly worrisome:
quote:
The flight-data recorder, according to the two people familiar with the probe, indicates the first officer’s control stick pulled the plane’s nose up. But it isn’t clear when those commands occurred in the sequence of events, or why they were initiated.

Posts: 328 | From: South Carolina  |  IP: Logged
Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
Member # 1035

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bob Ritchie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Glasspilot:
Bob, Great article! Obviously that flight was lucky to survive. That Tri-Motor could have easily broken up just like AirAsia.

Perhaps: But it didn't. We all know that no two incidents are the same. Easy to argue that this is not a fair comparison. Or...is it?

But it makes one wonder. I was particularly struck by the 85 year old description of how the captain monitored his instruments. We know full well that his hands were on the stick and throttles. We know that no computers were interfering....overriding pilot inputs. No question about "which" control wheel was making "what" inputs.

Iron ships. Iron men. Another time another place.

Posts: 1936 | From: Warren County, Missouri  |  IP: Logged
Robert Dedman
Post Captain
Member # 366

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Robert Dedman   Author's Homepage   Email Robert Dedman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not knowing who is doing what with the sticks is what I totally dislike about the Airbus fleet. Opposite inputs gives the computers a zero indication. At least with Boeing, you know which way the wheels are moving. My choice for sure but I guess I am prejudiced.
Posts: 406 | From: Virginia Beach, VA.  |  IP: Logged
Glasspilot
Post Captain
Member # 390

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Glasspilot     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Dedman: At least with Boeing, you know which way the wheels are moving.
And which way the throttles are moving.

My best HS buddy is a Delta CA on the AB320. He absolutely loves it. I tell him he's just used to it! I do miss my 767/757.

Posts: 294 | From: Outer Banks, NC  |  IP: Logged
Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
Member # 1035

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bob Ritchie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Understand Glass Pilot,

My kids always loved video games too!! Glad you and I missed the Airbus curse.


Bob

[ 01-30-2015, 18:16: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]

Posts: 1936 | From: Warren County, Missouri  |  IP: Logged
Subsonic Transport
Post Captain
Member # 2139

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Subsonic Transport     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I went back into the book I'm reading to review what the author/pilot wrote in regards to the B-17 through the front.

From God is my Copilot-Chapter 8, Take off from Brazil, page 47:

"....St Elmo's Fire....The eery sight recurred periodically but I never did become use to it. How can you when you are riding along with practically a railroad tank-car of one hundred octane aviation gasoline, and the little gremlins and fifinellas are running around with torches of high priority blue flame?

"As I settled myself on instruments, hand flying the ship, the turbulence increased and I remembered the instructions to turn North. As I went into the turn it seemed that all hell broke loose-I must have entered the center of the storm just at the instant of turning. The violent up drafts would clutch the big ship, and we'd go kiting up like an elevator. At first I'd try desperately to hold the altitude constant but it was to no avail. The ship would be flying straight and level, but we'd be climbing twenty-five hundred to thirty-five hundred feet per minute. Then, just as suddenly, we'd hurtle through the up-draft into a down-draft, and it would seem as if the wings were going to be torn from the fuselage. Down we'd go, at the same indicated speed that we'd come up.

"....It seemed that the clouds were endless and that each new center in the front was rougher than the last. Perhaps this front reached all the way to the North Pole. I'd begun to think so, anyway.

"And then, with one final shake of the Fortress, like a giant dog shaking a pup, the elements threw us out from the hills and valleys of the front and we saw the moon and the stars again......The world was good again, Worth living in and somewhere out there ahead was Africa."

Posts: 498 | From: Buffalo, NY  |  IP: Logged
Robert Dedman
Post Captain
Member # 366

Icon 14 posted      Profile for Robert Dedman   Author's Homepage   Email Robert Dedman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I spent 2 years in the Belgian Congo (after the Belgians left). The area is known as thunderstorm alley with some reaching well over 50,000ft.. Since we were flying DC-4's and Douglas Carvair's, we could not fly too high so we would pick the light spots and hope for the best. Lots and lots of heavy rain, lots of big bumps and ups and downs so we relied on the old favorite, hand flying. Not to say we did not pucker up. We finally got a DC-4 with radar and on my first flight with it, scared the pee out of me as I could then see what was out there and how lucky we were to pick the right holes. The DC-4 was a pretty iron horse airplane and could take the beating. Two man crew flying 220 hours a month. Oh what fun!!!
Posts: 406 | From: Virginia Beach, VA.  |  IP: Logged
Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
Member # 1035

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bob Ritchie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Last summer while making a DC-3 fuel stop in Lubbock TX I noticed a Carvair sitting across the field.

It was the only one that I have ever seen. When I mentioned it to the airport manager he answered..."you are one of the few who have ever known what it was." Perhaps it was one that you flew in Africa.... as I believe only 20 or so were ever converted.

What an interesting and exciting life you have lived and continue to enjoy.

Blue Skies.
Bob

Posts: 1936 | From: Warren County, Missouri  |  IP: Logged
extwacaptain
Prop Wash
Member # 381

Icon 1 posted      Profile for extwacaptain     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Captain Dedman,

Well, It was a dark and stormy night over Indiana. The captain was a friend of yours, Adair Miller and he was teaching a class on how to avoid thunderstorms in a Martin 404. We all know that this airplane did not have weather radar. But, no problem. Them there Indians in Indiana had military radar sites which, when contacted, would offer assistance by suggesting vectors to avoid the heavier activity. The various sites had different call signs. At one point, we were in contact with “Bean Bag” and their advice was working out rather well and appreciated. They made it too easy.

Well, not yet. Adair’s class was just beginning as we soon found ourselves doing what airplanes do in rough air, along with quite a bit of lightening and bouncing around. Being the only aircraft in contact with “Bean Bag”, it was no problem recognizing a loud voice saying: “Bean Bag, you s** of a Bit**. You just took us right into that ****%%%. My captain was REALLY giving that poor guy on the ground a bit of his mind. Sounded almost like General Patton speaking to a bunch of recruits......The radar operator did not respond. Moments later, that Martin entered another rough area and my good captain once again
did not hesitate to “blister” that fella on the receiving end of our radio.

To be honest, the rough ride didn't concern me as much as the thought of the two of us being questioned concerning our radio technique.

Adair, the professor, soon realized my concern, laughed out loud and demonstrated how his knee had moved the radio jack box selector to interphone to entertain his co pilot “thru the dark and stormy night”.

One of TWA’s Greatest. Your friend and mine, Adair Miller.

Posts: 1157 | From: Encino, Ca. U.S.A.  |  IP: Logged
Robert Dedman
Post Captain
Member # 366

Icon 14 posted      Profile for Robert Dedman   Author's Homepage   Email Robert Dedman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Captain Randy; Thanks for that great story. Adair was one of my favorites and we flew together often. Cheers
Posts: 406 | From: Virginia Beach, VA.  |  IP: Logged
Robert Dedman
Post Captain
Member # 366

Icon 14 posted      Profile for Robert Dedman   Author's Homepage   Email Robert Dedman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Captain Bob R; Did you happen to get a picture or tail number of that Carvair. Our company owned two and I certified them on the American Registration with the FAA. They were new and quite fun to fly.
Posts: 406 | From: Virginia Beach, VA.  |  IP: Logged
Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
Member # 1035

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bob Ritchie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Dedman:
Captain Bob R; Did you happen to get a picture or tail number of that Carvair. Our company owned two and I certified them on the American Registration with the FAA. They were new and quite fun to fly.

Sorry. A recheck of my logbook demonstrated that the aircraft was/is at KGLE not KLBB. LGLE is the Gainsville City, Texas municipal airport. I saw it when we were there as guest at the Medal of Honor Banquet last year.

But I digress. If you go to Google Earth....you can see the airplane parked on the arrival end of abandoned runway 22. Located just northeast of the current runway 30/12. Sadly one can only see it from above although you can focus in real close. But there is no steet view that would allow the registration numbers to be seen.

Perhaps someone at the KGLE airport could help. Or if I am back there again I will try to find out myself.

Bob

Posts: 1936 | From: Warren County, Missouri  |  IP: Logged
Capn Eddie Ricketyback
Post Captain
Member # 3010

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Capn Eddie Ricketyback   Author's Homepage   Email Capn Eddie Ricketyback   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Dedman:
picture or tail number of that Carvair.

This info may be helpful:
City of Gainesville (FBO)
940-668-4565
dvinton@cogtx.org

Web Site

Aviation fuel, Aircraft parking (ramp or tiedown), Passenger terminal and lounge, Aircraft maintenance, Avionics sales and service, Aircraft painting, Catering, ...

[ 02-04-2015, 15:34: Message edited by: Capn Eddie Ricketyback ]

Posts: 328 | From: South Carolina  |  IP: Logged
Subsonic Transport
Post Captain
Member # 2139

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Subsonic Transport     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I remember the first time I saw a Carvair. I had just landed in HNL on a TWA 747 from STL [1994]. I was on the upper deck looking out the window. It was a fair distance away.

My first thought it was a 747. But no, that can't be right as I see the prop blades. So I thought maybe a propliner was in front of a 747 and blended just right so that I was seeing a 747 with propellers. I had never seen a Carvair before let alone I never knew they existed.

As we taxied in, the planes [at least 3] disappeared from view and I didn't think about what I saw for years. One day, I'm flipping through a book or something and their it is. Click, now I get it!

Posts: 498 | From: Buffalo, NY  |  IP: Logged
Robert Dedman
Post Captain
Member # 366

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Robert Dedman   Author's Homepage   Email Robert Dedman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks Capt. Eddie, will give it a try.
Posts: 406 | From: Virginia Beach, VA.  |  IP: Logged
Robert Dedman
Post Captain
Member # 366

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Robert Dedman   Author's Homepage   Email Robert Dedman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks to all of you, I got the tail number from the station manger and googled it. Seems the Carvair has been sitting for some time now but they are re-engineing it and will fly it to either CA or some other spot in TX. I never flew that one as it was 9th built and I was with TWA at that time as new 2nd officer. Our company had the 3rd and4th ones made (as best I can recall) and we used them mainly in the Congo. I was designated FAA rating giver so trained some pilots there.
Posts: 406 | From: Virginia Beach, VA.  |  IP: Logged


 
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Smilin' Jack's Aviation Directory



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0