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Author Topic: Speeding After Landing
extwacaptain
Prop Wash
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Some people seem to think because one of their acquaintances was/is a pilot, they automatically have all the answers whenever there happens to be an accident. Most of us on this board are well aware that this assumption is not correct. It is true, however, that we do share a common interest in knowing the true cause and how to avoid similar situations in the future.



With this in mind, it is not unusual for all of us to follow closely the latest news concerning any and all aviation related stories.



Two items of interest were noticed while “Goggling” for the latest information concerning the Delta Flight at LGA. Number One. The/a pilot “supposedly” mentioned that the runway appeared all white. (My thought about this would only be:...Were the centerline lights visible thru the snow? Without centerline runway lights visible, and any possible cross-wind combined with very low visibility, well, the pilots were not exactly receiving all the assistance they deserved and were entitled too.



To be honest, the REAL inspiration for this post was derived from a comment noticed today, suggesting a possible reason for the accident being......”Pilot Speeding After Landing.”



Unbelievable, but here is the reference (very bottom of article):



http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/feds-reviewing-delta-plane-crash-laguardia-article-1.2142033

[ 03-12-2015, 09:34: Message edited by: extwacaptain ]

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Rocky Dollarhide
Post Captain
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Many times when there is an aircraft accident or incident, people will ask me: "what happened?" I believe the best answer I can give them is: "I don't know."
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extwacaptain
Prop Wash
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Better than perfect answer, Rocky.

On another note.....One evening out of Pittsburg, we blew a tire on take-off in an 880. The inspector who suggested "Speeding after landing" would most likely have violated us for "Speeding Before Take-off."

And been absolutely correct.

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Robert Dedman
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Randy; surprised he did not charge you with not having a spare in the hold (ooooohhh! [Wink]
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Capn Eddie Ricketyback
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One reason the airplane may have been ”Speeding After Landing” is that they landed on snow-covered Runway 13 in fog & snow while the wind was out of the north at 9.2 mph. And incidentally while the visibility was 2/10 mi. according to the weather data linked below.

See this NTSB press release and this LGA weather for the date (see the weather data at the bottom of the page).

[ 03-14-2015, 10:33: Message edited by: Capn Eddie Ricketyback ]

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extwacaptain
Prop Wash
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Captain Billy,

As ALWAYS, MOST interesting post.

Please be assured that your time and research are greatly appreciated.

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smilinjack
The Big Boss
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He had autobrakes on.....Under those conditions I don't think I would trust them. I would want more control.

Only my opinion.

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extwacaptain
Prop Wash
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Having no auto brake experience what-so-ever, some time has been spent in an attempt to gain a little knowledge about its recommended use. Kinda looks like its one of those things you can turn “On” when getting up in the morning and turn “Off” when going to bed at night and everybody will be happy.

However, one interesting note (almost hidden) did mention the fact that the proceedure described for the use of auto brakes during cross-wind, slippery runway landings was predicated on UNIFORM runway surface conditions.

It would be my guess that this information is seldom known by any pilot approaching soon after an airport/runway has been plowed.....And without it.....Yogi Berra might have said: “Them Auto Brakes might be as worthless as TwEETS ON A BULL” [Big Grin]

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TWABRAT
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quote:

However, one interesting note (almost hidden) did mention the fact that the proceedure described for the use of auto brakes during cross-wind, slippery runway landings was predicated on UNIFORM runway surface conditions.

It would be my guess that this information is seldom known by any pilot approaching soon after an airport/runway has been plowed.....And without it.....Yogi Berra might have said: “Them Auto Brakes might be as worthless as TwEETS ON A BULL” [Big Grin] [/QB]

You'd think after several very, high profile landing incidents/accidents in the past 15 years that the FAA and NTSB would once for all come up with a process for reporting and disseminating braking action reports to dispatchers and flight crews. As a dispatcher, I deal with this kind of stupidity daily in winter months. Many airports in the Upper Midwest have essentially refused to issue NOTAMS with MU values, instead putting them on the airport's website or making the airlines call on the phone. Pilot reports from preceding landing airplanes are not passed on to the crews, instead they are held up by politics in airports such as MDW and ORD as only the Department of Airports can issue braking action. Crews are being given old and often times very overstated conditions. Why?

I am anxious to know what conditions previous airplanes had reported to the LGA tower and what if any of that got passed on to the DL crew.

[ 03-19-2015, 13:18: Message edited by: TWABRAT ]

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Subsonic Transport
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I was curious about that as well. The news keeps saying that a plane just minutes before this excursion happened, reported braking action as I good. I've never seen how many minutes actually occurred between the two. 2 minutes? 13 minutes? Being in BUF all my life, it doesn't take much to cover the ground in a short period of time.

Not being familiar with MD birds, does auto-braking include anti-skid or are they separate items?

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Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
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quote:
Originally posted by smilinjack:
He had autobrakes on.....Under those conditions I don't think I would trust them. I would want more control.

Only my opinion.

I believe that Jack is on to an important issue and have thought so since the captain was quoted has having said the "auto brakes were on max". Adding further that the "auto brakes failed to work."

Now I don't know Delta's policy on the MD-80 regarding autobrake usage at LGA. AA required one to use the 757/767 autobrakes when landing on runways of 7,000 ft. or less. I believe the longest runway at LGA is 7,000 ft. So I would comply but set them on the minimum setting which just barely applied the brakes. Even then I would kick them off the instant the wheels touched. Never would I have used autobrakes on a slick runway.

Jack and I had thousands of hours experience flying into short, sometimes snow covered and often very slick runways. It would never be a good idea to apply max braking when landing upon a slick runway....manually or automatically. Max autobraking is violent on a dry runway and would produced zero braking when on a slick runway. The autobrakes would go max on, skid, the antiskid would release immedietly and repeat over and over while slidding down the runway.

Technique I was taught to use was min. touchdown speed..immediate MANUAL spoiler deployment and significant, early reverse....tapping the brakes gently as the speed decreased below 80 kts.

With 15,000 hours in DC-9s and MD-80s I can attest that the MD-80 doesn't need any application of brakes to stop in far less than 7,000 ft. Reverse will bring the MD-80 to a stop without braking while allowing for directional control.... using differential reverse during roll out.

All that being said and using the best techniques the "old hats" taught me....It is ONLY by the GRACE OF GOD THAT I NEVER ENDED UP LIKE THIS DELTA CREW. It can happen to anyone. Technique, skill and experience only reduce the risk. Some of us were luckier than others!

[ 03-20-2015, 16:29: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]

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extwacaptain
Prop Wash
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Is it true that the MD-80 has a history of :"Rudder-blanking" (affecting directional control) when Reverse Thrust above 1.3 EPR is applied during a combination of high speed, cross-wind and slippery runway conditions?
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Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
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Randy,

I flew with lots of pilots who didn't seem to know what a rudder was even for and were hesitant to apply aggressive rudder...unless they were old DC-3/Twin Beech or Cessna 180 pilots. Heck even the tricycle gear FH-227 did not have nosewheel steering on take off and landing. Purely aerodynamic control. One learned to use the rudder darned quick.

Of course the MD test pilots broke one apart during certification....as a result of blanking out the rudder....using heavy reverse. At least that is what they blamed it on.

TWA had a policy of not using reverse thrust until the nose wheel was on the ground...partly for that reason. 1.3 epr was overly conservative. In my experience the "rudder blanking" was mostly and old wives tale. As you know airline policy often takes the extreme conservative approach....so any infraction gets hung on the captain. What pilots do in the real world is something else and few really care...until something goes wrong. But you know all of that.

I never had a moments difficulty controlling the MD-80 under the conditions which you described and using the techique which I suggested earlier.

Just dumb luck I guess.

[ 03-21-2015, 20:06: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]

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dave carr
Post Captain
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Bob

In my years flying the MD80 I never had a problem controlling either heading or track. I was probably lucky because as somebody commented earlier---but for grace go I. I'm too lazy to look it up but as I recall we had a max EPR of 1.2 when using reverse thrust on landing. Is my memory correct? Such a restriction could be due to the concern for loss of rudder effectiveness with high usage of reverse thrust.

Dave Carr

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smilinjack
The Big Boss
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I started flying the DC-9 as F/O in 1969 and as Cap. in 1979, was one of the first md80 Capts. in 1983 until I went to the 727 in 1992.

In the early days flying in the midwest with OZ we had some stations without a tower. When they gave us a braking action report it was never worse than poor. I learned real quick that meant NIL! That was to make sure we landed.

I always planned for a NIL landing no matter what they said from then on......

I also never had a rudder blanked out.

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Capn Eddie Ricketyback
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As long as we're proceeding along Memory Airway here I also started flying the MD-80 (82) in about 1982 or '83. It was so new to TWA that it was still called the DC-9-80, and I had to go to ground school at Douglas in Long Beach, simulator in the Continental simulator in Houston (I think... some city in Texas anyway) and completed the training in the aircraft in Yuma, Ariz (Training in the aircraft--what a novel concept!).

Remember the requirement to get the nosewheel on the ground before applying reverse. That was a bit of a pucker factor when landing on Runway 33 at Washington National.

Have no memory of the 1.2 or 1.3 reverse EPR restriction or of any rudder blanking problems, and I guess the auto-braking came in one of the later models. Have no experience with auto-braking, but I would think it would be a no-brainer to turn them off when landing on a snow-covered runway.

Posting from ignorance, but that's never stopped me before.

[ 03-24-2015, 06:20: Message edited by: Capn Eddie Ricketyback ]

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extwacaptain
Prop Wash
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Appreciate the responses.....They, and other available information would seem to indicate that, under certain conditions, the MD-80 aircraft behaves better by using a slightly different than normal reverse procedure when operating on slippery runways and cross wind conditions.

And, “sure as all get out” the manufacturers, airlines and our friends at the FAA developed and agreed on a recommended reverse thrust power setting to prevent and avoid loss of directional control due to this Rudder Blanking.

The fact that our pilots on this board have expressed never having experienced such a problem can only attest to their professionalism and following of recommended procedures.

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TWABRAT
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quote:
Originally posted by smilinjack:
I started flying the DC-9 as F/O in 1969 and as Cap. in 1979, was one of the first md80 Capts. in 1983 until I went to the 727 in 1992.

In the early days flying in the midwest with OZ we had some stations without a tower. When they gave us a braking action report it was never worse than poor. I learned real quick that meant NIL! That was to make sure we landed.

I always planned for a NIL landing no matter what they said from then on......

I also never had a rudder blanked out.

Jack

Those practices still exist in many of airports I'm sure you are well familiar with. Why anyone thinks that's okay or safe is beyond my little brain.

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Glasspilot
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My memorable incident with poor braking was as a brand new "baby" Captain on Miss Piggy. We were landing in Detroit just after dusk on a wet runway with the temp dropping. Rolling out in reverse I started to apply the brakes and "nothing"! I told the F/O and F/E that I had no braking and that I was passing up the normal turnoff and that I was going back into reverse. The Northwest behind me was not happy as he went around! I wasn't going to leave that centerline until I felt I was under complete control!
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Robert Dedman
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I remember well one arrival from LHR to JFK. Snow had fallen all night and PAA 747(Like our aircraft) was ahead of us for landing on 31R. JFK reported that runway had just been plowed so ask Clipper for a braking report after landing. Well, he landed and gave the tower an answer when asked, how was it...they said " we pulled off, didn't we." so tower said your call TWA.. I told the F/O that we had better plan for nil braking or maybe a little better. We were full so had high bug speed. I touched down on the 1000ft area and went into reverse till the 80K call. Then, NO BRAKING at all so went back to reverse to slow down and went to the very end of the runway and managed with a little braking and differential reverse to get off the runway. As we taxied back slowly to the terminal, I told the F/O to tell the tower that the braking action was NIL and recommend that the R/W be closed. As we approached our terminal entrance I applied the brakes and slid right on by. Again, I played with the reversers. Managed to get a clean taxiway and get back around to a straight-in to the terminal. When the mechanic came into the cockpit, he said, Captain, your wheels were locked as you came by the first time. Needless to say, the pucker factor was high and probably took my wife a day or two to clean my drawers.
I think if I had planned on auto-brakes, we would have slid off the end but instead I used the reverse to my advantage.

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Glasspilot
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Yah Bob, Just like my situation, I had just started to come out of reverse for the 80kts call when I realized my brakes were useless. That's why I verbally said to the guys I was going re-engage reverse. Sometimes you do what ya gotta do!
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nyc6035
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An additional update on the LGA accident from the NTSB:

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/PR20150402b.aspx

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Rocky Dollarhide
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MD80/DC9 TWA Flight Handbook 1/9/1998 Page 2.40.9
"After nosewheel touchdown, apply normal reverse thrust up to 1.6 EPR (up to 1.3 for MD80 on wet or slippery runway with braking action poor). Max continuous thrust may be used if necessary."
Reverse Thrust Considerations "During reverse thrust operation, exhaust gases from the engines are deflected in such a manner that effective airflow over the vertical tail is reduced. Reduction in rudder effectiveness is relative to the level of reverse thrust applied."

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extwacaptain
Prop Wash
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Thanks to Marc Brecy for the “heads-up” following story:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/09/13/ntsb-delta-laguardia-runway-accident/90302316/

Many of the previous comments mention having had the occasional need to utilize reverse thrust to maintain directional control during what would normally be considered “taxiing conditions”. (That turns the hair gray rather rapidly, doesn’t it?) Probably an even faster way to apply that same “hair-coloring” would be finding one’s self in the same situation as our Delta pilots on their flight 1086....Having to trade off reverse thrust to regain directional control on that short, slippery runway on March 5, 2015 at LGA.

Of possible interest to “passenger-readers” of this board (and personal curiosity)..How many of our pilot members have found it necessary, or desirable, to “come out” of reverse thrust and return to foreword thrust AFTER LANDING during cross-wind/slippery conditions in order to maintain/regain directional control? I recall at least two very vividly. Such experiences can cause a guy to give “a lot of thought” to avoiding repeat performances.

An example: One evening, approaching DCA, advised landing to the south, RW over Georgetown, wind a few knots out of the north (runway wet from previous rain) I requested to approach from the south and land to the north.This initial request was denied at which point a request was made for a clearance to DIA (our alternate)......Well, it was amazing how quick that approach was turned around to land INTO the wind on a wet, SHORT runway, in addition to avoiding the weather involved with a south landing.

Traffic controllers provide aircraft separation.....Pilots fly the airplane.

My sincere appreciation to TWA for granting “Captain’s Authority”.

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Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
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As an old WW-2 U.S.and Royal British Navy, OZA captain often said:

"captain's authority is granted by Federal Air Regulations". "You got the REGS...stand on them laddie"!

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