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Author Topic: Occasional Light Chop
extwacaptain
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http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/08/08/delta-flight-from-boston-damaged-in-hail-storm/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Following is a UTube of cockpit/approach control conversations. Delta Flight 1889.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q0STyQX34E

[ 08-09-2015, 19:23: Message edited by: extwacaptain ]

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Bob Ritchie
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Pilots reporting severe turbulence. I don't know about Delta but during my tenure at TWA if one reported having experienced severe turbulence....an aircraft inspection was required. And the controller repeating "I am not going to take you below 12,000." Well that probably was good "advice." But the last time a controller told me they were "not" going to give me an altitude due to turbulence: I responded....." If the restriction is due only to turbulence...I'll make that decision sir not you. I demanded the altitude got it and it was ....smooth. But then I came from an era where captains commanded their aircraft and crew.
Fire away..

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extwacaptain
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A different opinion...

After listening many, many times, to the conversations between the pilots of Delta flight 1889 and the controller/s during those most hazardous moments approaching and landing at Denver, following are some of my thoughts:

With ground and airborne radar available, we may never know why that plane was flown close enough to
thunderstorm activity to encounter such turbulence and sustain such damage.

The cool professionalism displayed by the crewmember/s and controllers during the approach and landing were a tribute to all involved.

I would have thanked the gentleman for the “heads-up” concerning the severe turbulence report at the lower altitude. Maybe, just maybe, that is a REQUIRED part of his job.

Never met a thunderstorm too big to deviate around. [Roll Eyes]


Randy Kramer

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Bob Ritchie
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Agreed Randy,

I see nothing about your "differing opinion" of which I disagree.

Glad everything came out well. Ditto the thunderstorm deviations. As we know sometimes hail blows out well beyond the area expected. Do it right a thousand times...misjudge just once.

The Delta captain having declared an emergency did not require anyone's permission to do whatever he deemed necessary as we aviators well know. The controller did a masterful job of assisting the crew.

Sounds to me like they all worked together as true professionals strive to do. The FINAL decision is of course always the captain's responsibility.

blue skies,

Bob

[ 08-10-2015, 20:00: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]

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Subsonic Transport
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Its been a while since I've looked at the Regs. Isn't there a 20 mile rule in regards to thunderstorms to avoid things like this?

A look at the wx radar return relative to the planes track, he's well inside the 20 mile "rule."

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Dick Nicklas
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Subsonic Transport:
[QB] Its been a while since I've looked at the Regs. Isn't there a 20 mile rule in regards to thunderstorms to avoid things like this?

Dan,

If there isn't a 20 mile rule, and I don't recall there being one when I was flying, then there probably should have been.

I know nothing about the capabilities of the more modern color radars but my recollection of what the "old fashioned" sets would do is that they could show a strong return from water in a liquid state and possibly no return from ice crystals or hail.

I had the unpleasant experience of denting up a 707 one day flying into STL. That was a long time ago but my recollection is that we were VMC decending thru 20,000' or so, between two cells with at least 10 miles separation from each of them and that includes the anvil of the larger cell which we were to the south of.

The hail never showed on our radar and we were in it for perhaps 5 seconds. Sounded like we were inside a large GI can with somebody beating on it with a hammer.

It cracked the radome and dented the leading edge of the nacelles.

Stuff happens(ed).

**************************************
STOP THE PRESSES...
Well there never was too much doubt in my mind but at least now I know that I wasn't the only one who had, as Wally Moran used to say, "screwed the pooch".

Nick

AA Hail damaged 787 returns to service

Our Boeing 787 Dreamliner that encountered a hailstorm on July 27 departing China, went back into service Monday, departing as Flight 2332 from DFW to ORD. The aircraft was then scheduled to fly from ORD to Tokyo Narita (NRT) this afternoon. Getting the aircraft back into service was a collective effort between our Tech Ops team, especially our employees at DWH and TULE.

A spare radome was flown to Beijing (PEK) to replace the one damaged during the storm. The aircraft was then ferried to Tokyo Narita (NRT) on Aug. 2, for left- and right-side windshield replacements. We then flew to DFW the next day for more intensive repairs, including aluminum repairs on the wing’s leading edges, along with some composite repairs.

[ 08-31-2015, 04:14: Message edited by: Dick Nicklas ]

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Subsonic Transport
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I tried to copy and paste using my cell phone. I can fly a 727 simulator but can't do this. Anyways. I googled "thunderstorms and 20 miles. ". An advisory circular came up. On pages 10 and 11 the 20 miles is mentioned in relation to turbulence and hail. I'll try and post from the laptop later.

Update:
http://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac%2000-24c.pdf

[ 08-12-2015, 20:15: Message edited by: Subsonic Transport ]

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Capn Eddie Ricketyback
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Captain Haiku explains it all:

古いことが生きるために、
嵐のパイロットが飛行しなければならないから
少なくとも20マイル

or:

To live to be old
from the storm pilot must fly
at least twenty miles

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extwacaptain
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Eddie Ricketyback:
Captain Haiku explains it all:

古いことが生きるために、
嵐のパイロットが飛行しなければならないから
少なくとも20マイル

or:

To live to be old
from the storm pilot must fly
at least twenty miles

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Captain Eddie,

Although those words have never been found in a "fortune cookie", it is my recollection that TWA's manuals did have a recommended policy of: 5 miles, 10 miles, or 20 miles, depending on altitude.

It is my belief that this policy was in effect from the earliest days of Weather Rader on our aircraft.

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Bob Ritchie
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Pretty standard airline policy,

However in the days of low altitude, short haul flight it was sometimes impossible to go around the storms....if one was ever to reach their destination. So we flew low and slow below them when possible.

Once as a copilot on a DC-9 the captain chose to fly from STL to Paducah Kentucky at MEA. don't think that we ever got above 4,000 ft. Not a single bump below an area of massive thunderstorms.

Ahh...those were the days. Betcha lots of old DC-3, Martin 404 and Convair 340 pilots did the same thing. Let alone those of us bumping around in CV-580s/600s and F-27/FH-227s.

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thebear
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And Jetstreams, Metros, Beech 99's, the list goes on. But going low and slow around the rain shafts was the only way to do it.
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PITbeast
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My father, a USN pilot in WWII, learned this limerick while in training:

"Fly low and slow" his mother said
To her darling Air Cadet.
He did what his mother told him
And they haven't found him yet.

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extwacaptain
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This subject appears to remind many of us of personal experiences during our careers. Each, obviously, never to be forgotten.

It was a night time DC-3 flight, eastbound to Kansas City. The Captain had to be the original pilot to have been born while flying thru the low cone of silence of the Harrisburg LF range (at night) in the middle of a thunderstorm. His name will not be mentioned, but his initials were Captain Ernie Pretch. In my mind, he was absolutely one of the finest pilots I have ever flown with and will always be remembered as such.

While the turbulence caused our passengers to have the change shaken from their pockets and distributed thru out the cabin floor, (There doesn’t seem to be an FAA degree of turbulence for this) Captain Pretch kept that thing right-side up and in one piece. The gear was cycled more times during those several minutes to help maintain desired speed than any normal day flying on the line. (His co-pilot’s contribution for the flying lesson.)

No radar......Just an extremely skilled Captain......And A LOT OF LUCK. [Smile]

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Robert Dedman
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Interesting subject. I spent almost 3 years in the Belgian Congo, now Zaire.. Where thunderstorms reaches over 50000 feet but we managed, without radar, to fly low, 12000 and below and find the soft spots. Lucky, yes but skilled and experience were the best thing we had going. We got mostly very wet, DC-4s leak like mad but those R-2000's did not care. Great engines and a lot of wet pants and rags on the floors, we made it work. When we had our R & R and flew out of Leopoldville, on KLM jet, we went to cockpit and saw on radar what we had dodging. Those storms were absolutely beautiful and more dangerous than we could have ever expected if we had gone through one. Strange things we do to get back to a major airline and hoping to get with TWA. The oldest to break the 32 year cap rule. I was six months over but came with almost 5000 hours of Capt on Connies, DC-4s and a strange one called the Carvair which I certified the FAA for American usage. Number 3 ATP rating...Should write a book but don't know how. Life is good and flying is the best. The only thing I wanted in my life and I made it..TWA Instructor, flight manager on 707 and 747 and the finest pilots in the world. We will never be surpassed as that is era long gone bye. THE BEST TWA
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Subsonic Transport
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Mr Dedman, you don't need to write a book, you have this site right here at your disposal to write about anything that comes to mind. There is at least one person..ME..who will read whatever you type.

If the weather clears out of the midwest, I plan on attneding the Kansas City airshow this coming weekend. Non-military static displays will have the Martin 404, DC-3 and the Wings of Pride MD-83. Connie?

Its been over 20 years since I've seen a TWA a/c. Excluding DL a/c. I need my fix dang it!

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Bob Ritchie
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Captain Dedman,

Love your comments both public and personal. Since you choose to not write a book....and I like others encourage you to do so...please continue to express your memoirs here.

Yes I know....(Every man outlives his time) as have you and even myself, half a generation younger. But your experiences must be told and you tell them without the temptation of self promotion, which is common among we airmen.

More please not less. The stories and memories can only live on through written passages or at the very least the memories of others. Pass then on. They must not be forgotten!!

And as we ancient airmen know...."A single peak is worth a thousand sweeps"! You and I got around "beneath" and around thunderstorms flying "low and slow" without radar or very early radar.

Low and slow worked even in jets. I can recall my career TWA copilot, a decade senior to me(early in the merger) being amazed as I picked my way into Cedar Rapids, Iowa by flying low and slow under huge thunderstorms. When we got on the ground he said...."I never saw anyone do that before." A lost art as technology advanced.

Still practicing the art as I bang around the nation in a DC-3.....just for fun!

Let us learn from you.

An admirer,

Bob

[ 08-18-2015, 10:38: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]

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dave carr
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I remember dealing with thunderstorms in the early 727 with that rather rudimentary weather radar. Talk about an intuitive science. Anybody remember Capt. Rodney Penfield? When asked for a turbulence report he looked at his coffee cup and measured the height of the displacement of the liquid on the inside of the cup. He then reported that displacement as the severity of the turbulence. "Displacing 1/4 inch in a standard Dixie cup #2013". Claimed that was much more scientific than "light,moderate,etc". I think he was serious. It never caught on with ATC. Interesting man that Capt. Penfield.
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Capn Eddie Ricketyback
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On the subject of weather, some of you may enjoy this little essay from the viewpoint of a "Freight Dog," who was a fellow enlisted aircrew member with Yr. Obt. Svt. in a Navy VP Squadron in the '50s. He got his licenses after his Navy Service and worked as a Freight Dog for a number of years trying to gain enough experience to get on with the majors. Yours Truly, on the other hand, went to college after his Navy discharge, promptly flunking out and getting into the next-to-last USAF Pilot Cadet Class. Worked out a little better for me.
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extwacaptain
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Sub,

Have you noticed, those who should write a book, usually don’t, and those who shouldn’t bother, quite often do? Well, you may have to stand in line for Captain Bob’s (Dedman). That’s my guess.

In contrast, about sixty some odd years ago, one of our more senior original TWA pilots from our northern California domicile did become the author of a story about his flying life. The title was something about 3 years off this earth....Reading about airline pilots was not found to be of great interest at the time, so my three or four bucks was budgeted for cheap cigars instead.

Word around the airline by those who did read the written efforts of the good captain were rather unanimous in that....Had he left the word “I” out of the book, he could have gotten ‘er down to a couple of pages.

Some of us, myself included, could probably list all/most of our achiements on fewer pages, even with considerable embellishment.


Randy Kramer

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Capn Eddie Ricketyback
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quote:
Originally posted by extwacaptain:
... about sixty some odd years ago, one of our more senior original TWA pilots from our northern California domicile did become the author of a story about his flying life.

Well, I've always been able to find just about whatever I was looking for with search engines, but this book eluded me, and I still don't have a clue who it was. I even consulted my copy of "Howard Hughes' Airline" by Robert Serling, an autographed copy which I acquired when I reported for a flight in St. Louis and encountered the author in the Ramp Office signing copies, which were conveniently available for purchase.

However, during my scanning of the book I did encounter an interesting account of how a faulty flux gate compass resulted in a Martin 404 flying into Sandia Mountain near Albuquerque, and Larry De Celles' successful four-year battle to get the CAB to reverse itself from its original verdict blaming the Captain.

I also found some interesting stuff about some Captains I used to fly with, Black Dog Davis, John Mitchell and Walt Gunn. If you'll indulge me, here's a rather amusing (almost) direct passage from Page 195: Walt Gunn, who held several college degrees and was rather scholarly in speech and manner was in the left seat while John Mitchell was in the right. They were approaching STL at 12,000 feet and Gunn intoned solemnly, "John, do you see the confluence of the Mississippi, Missouri and Illinois Rivers?"
"Do I see what?"
"The confluence of rivers, on your side."
Mitchell glanced out the window.
"You mean where those three f***ing rivers come together, Walt?"

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extwacaptain
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quote:
Originally posted by Subsonic Transport:
Mr.

If the weather clears out of the midwest, I plan on attneding the Kansas City airshow this coming weekend. Non-military static displays will have the Martin 404, DC-3 and the Wings of Pride MD-83. Connie?

Its been over 20 years since I've seen a TWA a/c. Excluding DL a/c. I need my fix dang it!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sub,

Looks like the weather was on your side. Hope you enjoyed the show and will share your always great photos.

My relationship with that 404 was kinda like a "teenager in love" (We were both rather young at the time.) [Smile]

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Subsonic Transport
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I had actually cancelled my trip due to "end of the earth" forecast around here. When the system finally came through here [it was clear in Kansas City] it was a 20 minute moderate rain, 2 hours of drizzle and then crisp clear skies. I was really bent. I canceled because of this?

The next day was just as clear and all the way to Texas. Screw it....I'm going!

While the discussion on this thread is mostly flying under TRW's, here's a photo where I'm about to drive under a thunderstorm. I am just about to cross the Mississippi River at STL. The arch is to the left out of view.
 -

I don't believe I have ever driven in such a heavy downpour! Visibility was down to 50 feet. I thought for sure I'd have to paddle my way out from under several bridges. What made it worse is that when I stopped for gas in IL, I cleaned the window. It left a film on the glass so the wipers were only smearing the water over the glass and not really wiping it off. I could only see the cars lights in front of me. Couldn't really see the road. I couldn't stop or I'd get rear ended. Keep going!

I'll start another thread for my Kansas City trip.

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Charlie Jennings
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Capn. Eddie.

Enjoyed your post containing this remark: "I also found some interesting stuff about some Captains I used to fly with, Black Dog Davis, John Mitchell and Walt Gunn".

I flew with "Black Dog" out in the Pacific MAC days
and he always introduced himself as Charles, Charlie, or C.M. Davis. He never acknowledged the Black Dog nick-name.

Black Dog was a good friend of Capt. Ben Young and I never tired of their stories of the "good old days" and the practical jokes played by one and all.

P.S. You do remember how Captain Davis received his nick-name don't you?

Charlie

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Subsonic Transport
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I read one book written by a TWA pilot. Airways and Airwaves by Capt David Gwinn, Ret.

Loves the photo of the MD80 on the cover.

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extwacaptain
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Captains Eddie and Charlie,

TWA should have required every new and old captain to fly a couple of flights with captains Ben Young or Black Dog Davis.

The positive "Trickle Down" effect would have been not only our crew-member's dreams come true, but an even more enjoyable environment for all involved in our airline's operations.


a spoiled copilot

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Capn Eddie Ricketyback
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie Jennings:
I flew with "Black Dog" out in the Pacific MAC days
and he always introduced himself as Charles, Charlie, or C.M. Davis. He never acknowledged the Black Dog nick-name...

... P.S. You do remember how Captain Davis received his nick-name don't you?

Actually, I don't think I ever knew how he came by that nickname, but I do remember that he always introduced himself as "Charlie." He had a very attractive wife who accompanied him on trips from time to time.

I always enjoyed flying with him. Of the other two I mentioned there was one that I didn't enjoy so much.

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extwacaptain
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When Captain "Charlie" returned to LAX on his retirement flight, he was greeted by many of his fellow pilot friends and admirers, as well as the chief pilot and his staff.

After the "Sparks" ceased flying from the tail-skid and the plane arrived at the gate, the handsome Captain was congratulated.....His exact words (as remembered) to one of our GREATEST chief pilots at the time, were:"You're not gonna send me to recurrent training are you, John?

A flight with "Black Dog" was like receiving a couple of extra days vacation. [Smile]

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Dick Nicklas
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Please note above the edited edition of my previous post on this topic.

Nick

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