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Author Topic: AA @ STL
AAMan
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What is going to happen here? I'm just curious becuase its my home town airport and I would really like to see STL stay a major hub and not go down to a second tier RJ hub like CLE, MEM , or CVG. A few questions I would like answered are:
1-Any 772's?
2-STL-CDG or FRA ever coming back
3-STL-NRT down the road?

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Bewildered
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My guess is that STL will continue to be down sized.
AA just wanted to keep the competition out. The city doesn't generate enough O&D traffic to warrant significant investment.
My guess is that life will be on hold for a few months.

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Dave Ratcliff
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Since we're guessing, can I play this game?

It is my humble opinion that STL will continue to operate at the level we had prior to the LAX/JFK/SFO closings. In other words, around 1400 pilots plus or minus a hundred.

I think you will see a dramatic increase in RJ flying, a reduction in MD-80 flying and a reduction in 767/757 flying but with a lot of that taken up by the other bases.

In addition, STL will become an even more important player in the hub and spoke system since, as was previously pointed out, O & D traffic will never come close to ORD/DFW. STL central location and reasonable weather will make it a logical choice for just about any transfering customer. STL looks like a third world airport (the carpet alone would make a good soup) but its three main departure gate fingers are relatively convenient compared to both ORD and DFW.

Gee, this game is a lot of fun! We need to save these predictions to see who comes closest.

Dave Ratcliff


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Curious One
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Please see message under TWA re Eagle in STL
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jmy007
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In late spetmeber their was a buzz in the St louis media that AA would close the hub in St Louis, and only have a few flights.
then a few days later AA announced that it would pour 20 million dollars into STL to upgrade the shabby looking B,C,D conocurses, with new shops and resturants, carpets, new electronic gate displays (instead of the crumy old plastic ones)
guess they want to turn into nice hub.
As far as flights, I sell ski vacations, and most flights on AA from the east coast with destinations such as DEN, SLC, RNO are all coming up with connections in STL. So AA is routing people to lambert.
Plus the runway expantion is going full steam ahead. I belive STL can be a world class alternative to ORD. Less delays with weather easy connections etc.

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chrispy
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My guess, since we're playing this game:

55% mainline flights
45% RJs/Turboprops

Of the mainline flights 15-20% will be NAAtive co-pilots with 1 yr seniority filling in (I'm told I cant use the word scab) for TWA pilots on furlough
with upto 13 yrs (capt) seniority (those guys are lucky to just have been laid off from American, there's some prestige to that, and knowing that NAAtives are flying in their seat is nice to know also)

STL is an excellent omni-directional hub used to relieve the congestion at ORD/DFW...but the NAAtive unions wont allow that to happen. If a passenger lives in Orlando and is flying to Springfield, MO...the employees of AA would prefer that passenger go thru DFW or ORD. Nice touch, time for a code red.


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AHP
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Chrispy,

In times of adversity, you learn who you really are. A persons true character is not tested until that person is tested. What was that line from Wall Street. When the man looks into the abyss, and nothing looks back, thats when you learn who you really are. Or something to that affect. Here's hoping things turn out and that the adversity you are obviously being consumed and overwhelmed by passes quickly.
Good luck.

Al


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IA Farm Boy
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Please see message under TWA re Eagle in STL[/QUOTE]

There is NOT ONE Eagle flight/crew in STL. There are, however, some Eagle a/c, that were taken from Eagle and given to American Connection, now flying in their livery.


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Captain Ed
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STL was just ranked dead last among the USA's safest, and most dangerous cities.

Perhaps this is affecting managements decisions.

http://www.morganquitno.com/safecity.htm
The Book "City Crime Rankings"

City Crime Rankings Names Amherst, New York

America’s Safest City

St. Louis, Missouri Ranks as Most Dangerous

News Media Link

Read the Press Release Below or Click on

These Links for More Information:

Top/Bottom 25 | Population Groupings | Methodology | Included Cities | Missing Cities |

Previous Years' Rankings | Metro Area Awards | MQ Home Page | About Us

Click Here for the Complete 9th Safest/Most Dangerous City Publication

Lawrence, KS—For the third year in a row, Amherst, New York is America’s Safest City. The honor will be announced in the upcoming, new edition of City Crime Rankings, an annual reference book of crime statistics and rankings slated for publication in December. The results of the ninth annual Safest City Award, which compares crime in 342 cities, were announced today by Morgan Quitno Press, a Lawrence, Kansas-based publishing and research company. At the opposite end of the crime scale, St. Louis, Missouri ranks as the nation’s most dangerous city.

“Amherst is stuck to the top of our rankings,” said Scott Morgan, President of Morgan Quitno Press. “But, it is no wonder that the city does so well. With no murders and some of the lowest crime rates in the nation, Amherst easily beat out the other 341 cities in this year’s ranking.”

The Morgan Quitno Safest City Award is based on a city’s rate for six basic crime categories: murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary and motor vehicle theft. All cities of 75,000+ populations that reported crime data to the FBI for the six crime categories were included in the rankings. Final 2001 statistics, released by the FBI on October 28, 2002 were used to determine the rankings.

Joining Amherst at the top of the Safest City rankings were Brick Township, New Jersey; Newton, Massachusetts; Thousand Oaks, California and Sunnyvale, California. Just ahead of St. Louis at the most dangerous end of the Morgan Quitno crime scale were Detroit, Michigan; Atlanta, Georgia; Gary, Indiana and Baltimore, Maryland.

In addition to ranking the safety of cities, Morgan Quitno also examined crime in metropolitan areas. In those rankings, Danbury Connecticut rose to the top of the list to win this year’s Safest Metropolitan Area Award. The Memphis, TN-AR-MS metropolitan area ranked as the most dangerous.

The findings of the ninth annual Safest City and Metropolitan Area Awards are announced in City Crime Rankings 9th Edition, an annual reference book from Morgan Quitno Press. The newly updated edition of this volume will be available December 10th. The Safest City and Metropolitan Area rankings are one of five Morgan Quitno Awards announced annually by the publishing company. These other annual announcements designate the nation’s Most Livable State (a state quality of life survey); the Healthiest State (a survey of state health care); the Safest and Most Dangerous States (a state crime survey) and the Smartest State (a state education survey).

Additional information regarding the results of the ninth annual Safest City and Metropolitan Area Awards is available from Morgan Quitno Press via the Internet at www.morganquitno.com. The website provides methodology and rankings of the top and bottom 25 cities. A full report featuring information for all 342 cities is available online for $3.00.

[ 01-15-2003: Message edited by: Captain Ed ]


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donuway
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Well,,I don't have all day here,,,but I hit on a few of the links,,,and at least STL reported to these people. There seems to be a lot of incomplete data in this report. I didnt pick up on if it said ST Louis METRO area, or the city. Since Lambert is about 8 miles from the city limits, and Florissant MO, the largest community fairly close to Lambert, CONSISTENTLY has one of the lowest crime rates in the country, what does this mean?

Chicago didn't report to these people, and Atlanta and Detroit ranked right behind STL. Perhaps Delta, Northwest, and maybe? AA AND United should rethink these hub choices then???

Maybe the several thousand ex or laid off TWAers in the area got factored in as "raped"?

Don


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Jeff Isenberg
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quote:
Originally posted by donuway:

Maybe the several thousand ex or laid off TWAers in the area got factored in as "raped"?

Don


Don -

I think the laid off TWAers and shareholders who were "raped" did get factored in. But .... they haven't been "Abel" to "Git(ner)" the culprit or their "(ac)Compton(plices)." When they do, though, rest assured that they will "Cart(y)" them off to the slammer.

Jeff I.


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Captain Ed
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donuway - "what does this mean?"
This may be a clue:
Florissant Township county: FIPS.STATE=29, FIPS.COUNTY90=189, FIPS.COUSUB90=24796
PERSONS
Universe: Persons
Total...................................................................33690
RACE
Universe: Persons
White...................................................................31220
Black....................................................................2225

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1990 US Census Data
Database: C90STF3A
Summary Level: State--Place
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Saint Louis city: FIPS.STATE=29, FIPS.PLACE90=65000
PERSONS
Universe: Persons
Total..................................................................396685
RACE
Universe: Persons
White..................................................................202276
Black..................................................................187995


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Laertal
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Captain Ed,

Do you also think, just like Senator Trent Lott, that we would have all been better off had Strom Thurmond won the presidency in 1948?


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donuway
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Captain Ed,

When I said "what does this mean?" I was reffering to the corelation of St. Louis being a "dangerous city" to anyones decision to have a thriving airport hub there, particularly since Lambert isn't near the more "dangerous" sections.

Mayor Lowery of Florissant has spoken at two of the clubs I belong to in the past year, so I'm pretty well aware of the demographics of the area. He takes pride in the fact that many of the Black residents of Florissant backed him as Mayor, because they knew he would work to uphold the standards of the community. This was even in light of the fact that Florissant went under investigation for possible racial harrasment(pulling them over too often for driving in Florissant with bad plates,etc.) of minorities from surrounding communities while he was police chief.

Of course, those were people driving in from the communities closer to Lambert

Don


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JFK Fleet Service
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quote:
Originally posted by donuway:
Maybe the several thousand ex or laid off TWAers in the area got factored in as "raped"?

You know Don, rape is a serious crime.The scars it leaves on its victims are permanent.

Your equating the plight of laid off airline employees with the crime of rape is in exceedingly poor taste.


But hey, just have to get a zinger in on AMR don't you?


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donuway
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quote:
Originally posted by JFK Fleet Service:

You know Don, rape is a serious crime.The scars it leaves on its victims are permanent.

Your equating the plight of laid off airline employees with the crime of rape is in exceedingly poor taste.

Is rape any worse than killing someone? So when someone states that someone or something is "killing" them, that is in poor taste also? This was just an attempt to figure how this group came up with their statistics on St.Louis. Perhaps I used the wrong "crime", and I apologize if I offended anyone.

I did however, figure that someone would have picked at me for relating to the plight of the TWA employees as ANY sort of a crime. Do you think their plight is within the norm of the industry today? From an old thread:

You think the TWA people are the only ones to ever get a raw deal in this industry?

A question regarding that same thread; How many of those thousands of Pan Am employees that were put, "on the street", went back into the industry eventually? Probably no one knows, but I guess it should make the TWA people feel better to say they were all put "on the street" back then. If none of them found jobs in the industry, then it appears that this industry needs frequent "weeding out". Unfortunately, it appears to hit the more mature carriers, sort of a "natural selection". Some of us thought from the beginning that AA had the hoe in hand when TWA was purchased.


But hey, just have to get a zinger in on AMR don't you?


Actually, I never made reference to AA or AMR in that post with regards to the plight of the exTWAers. For all one knows, I could have been speaking of Trans World Corporation, Carl Icahn, several of the past management teams, etc. etc.

Again, my apologies,
Don


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JFK Fleet Service
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Rape is a touchy subject with me Don.
My apologies.

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Captain Ed
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X TWA - Hard to say, of course, but I think Thurmond would have made as good a President as Truman.

Don - I think demographics tell a lot about an area. I live in Brick NJ. The same report that showed Brick as #2, also breaks down cities into various populations. In the 75,000 to 100,00 catregory, Brick is #1. Last in the category, #50, is Camden NJ, same state, different demographs.

http://www.twp.brick.nj.us/Demographics/Census.htm

Note that according to the 2000 census, Brick NJ is 1% black.

Now check the demographics of Camden, and see if there may just be some sort of correlation.


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Striker
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain Ed:
X TWA - Hard to say, of course, but I think Thurmond would have made as good a President as Truman.

Don - I think demographics tell a lot about an area. I live in Brick NJ. The same report that showed Brick as #2, also breaks down cities into various populations. In the 75,000 to 100,00 catregory, Brick is #1. Last in the category, #50, is Camden NJ, same state, different demographs.

http://www.twp.brick.nj.us/Demographics/Census.htm

Note that according to the 2000 census, Brick NJ is 1% black.

Now check the demographics of Camden, and see if there may just be some sort of correlation.


Your real name wouldn't happen to be Archie Bunker, would it?


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Somewhere over America
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Despite all the hubbub, and accusations of intolerance bandied back and forth, in front of the fire, the oldest source of light, with the Artic chill outside—I am reminded of these words passed through generational lines:

Why does firewood give off light grandpa?

Think back my son; remember last summer when the trees were all adorned with leaves soaking in the rays of the sun?

Yes...

Well, the trees were capturing the sunlight and they stored it as wood, and now when we burn the wood, we release the light and the warmth of the sun they made for us.

Just a thought as the aroma of hickory and cherry fill the house in this, the warmest room in the house, without all the conflict and cold outside, and the wafts of smoke lift up and fragrant the countryside somewhere over America.

Goodnight.


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Bob Ritchie
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Over America,

Thanks my friend. The firewood is only Oak tonight; but the fragrance of my fine Montecrisco cigar adds to the aroma of a warm and cozy room.

Outside it is 10 degrees. A full moon on snow covered earth makes it light as day. Only an hour ago my wife and I watched a pair of deer cast moon shadows as they tiptoed though our forest.

Enjoy, enjoy, for life is fleeting,

bob ritchie


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TWAFA007
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quote:
Originally posted by Somewhere over America:
Despite all the hubbub, and accusations of intolerance bandied back and forth, in front of the fire, the oldest source of light, with the Artic chill outside—I am reminded of these words passed through generational lines:

Why does firewood give off light grandpa?

Think back my son; remember last summer when the trees were all adorned with leaves soaking in the rays of the sun?

Yes...

Well, the trees were capturing the sunlight and they stored it as wood, and now when we burn the wood, we release the light and the warmth of the sun they made for us.

Just a thought as the aroma of hickory and cherry fill the house in this, the warmest room in the house, without all the conflict and cold outside, and the wafts of smoke lift up and fragrant the countryside somewhere over America.

Goodnight.


Aloha America & Bob,

What the heck does this have to do with this thread? Just kidding. It has everything to do with it. Its so true that sometimes we look at the big picture and forget the great little picture right before our eyes. Our homes, our families, good friends, a cozy fire. My father told me if you have your health you have everything. Sometimes we forget what is really important in life.

I dont have a fireplace in my home here in FL, but on "my" beach we have a fire ring. A group of my friends & I are having a fire there tonight. We watched the Full Moon rise over the Alantic. The reflection off the sea & sand made it one of the brightess Moons I have ever seen. There is even "smoke'" on the water for added effect. The Ocean is warmer than the air. Life is good.

I just came in for some more supplies, fireworks, and some more clothes. Brrrrrr! Its only 39 here now. The coldest of the year. Bob it must be a Montecrisco by the fire kind of night, believe or not, I have one in my hand now. Smooth!

Somewhere overAmerica thanks for telling me where the light comes from. I always wondered. Now I know.

Thanks Bob & America.

ALOHA, 007

[ 01-17-2003: Message edited by: TWAFA007 ]


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757man
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If you knew him in the past you would think that Archie Bunker was a moderate. Sometimes people don't change.ala the statement re Strom thurmond!
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Striker
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quote:
Originally posted by 757man:
If you knew him in the past you would think that Archie Bunker was a moderate. Sometimes people don't change.ala the statement re Strom thurmond!

First of all, I don't know the person in question.

Secondly, the Archie Bunker comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but hopefully was poignant enough to make "Captain Ed" think about his racist attitudes.

Sadly, it's been my experience that people of this mindset are either incapable or simply unwilling to look beyond the superficial qualities of people who are different from themselves.

The world is a wonderfully diverse place. I pity those who choose to isolate themselves out of fear or ignorance.


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Captain Ed
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Striker - Nothing wrong with my "mindset". I was born in Jamaica Queens, 3 miles from Idlewilde airport in 1931, not far from the fictionalized Archie Bunker home. It even looked the same.

Caroll O'Connor was an arch liberal. His son died of a drug overdose. Our 4 sons are doing fine, as well as our two daughters.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/SHOWBIZ/TV/06/22/obit.oconnor/


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Captain Ed
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Bob -

1990 US Census Data
Database: C90STF3A
Summary Level: State--County
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Warren County: FIPS.STATE=29, FIPS.COUNTY90=219
PERSONS
Universe: Persons
Total...................................................................19534
RACE
Universe: Persons
White...................................................................18950
Black.....................................................................443

[ 01-22-2003: Message edited by: Captain Ed ]


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Bob Ritchie
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Captain Ed,

Just had a new grandbaby. Make that Warren County "BLACK" population read 443.

Bob Ritchie


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Striker
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain Ed:
Striker - Nothing wrong with my "mindset".

Perhaps you don't see yourself as having a racist mindset. Your postings, however, demonstrate exactly the opposite.


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Striker
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Ritchie:
Captain Ed,

Just had a new grandbaby. Make that Warren County "BLACK" population read 443.

Bob Ritchie


Wonderful news, Bob! Congratulations!


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Captain Ed
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Congratulations! We've got 8 so far. Nothing like 'em.

I even updated my post.


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Captain Ed
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Striker - Of course I'm a racist. What's your problem? Did someone pass a law making this "mindset" illegal? Are the "Thought Police" with us here?

How is it possible to regulate what goes on in a mans mind? I know what I have seen and experienced - it's that simple.

The very word and it's origin is a bit of a mystery to me. I was admitted to the USMMA at Kings Point in 1949. I was given a pile of books at the time including the current Websters Standard Collegiate Dictionary. The word "racist" does not appear in it's pages.


The sorry mess Senator Lott is in reveals what was there for all to see. Liberals will label anyone they disagree with a "racist". There is no way to get out of the charge if you are the least
bit conservative. In fact, by that standard most Americans are racist but afraid to admit it.

Yes, I prefer to be among my own white people. Most whites do, I'm sure. This attitude is NOT limited to whites, BTW. Liberia, THE NEGRO REPUBLIC, spells out in it's Constitution that it is for people of color, only. For some reason, South Africa's "apparthied" policy caused a world wide boycott of that once fine place, yet Liberia never gets any negative press.

The second year at USMMA is spent aboard US Merchant Ships, and my first voyage on the MV Del Rio in 1950 took me to Africa, including Monrovia, Liberia.

I was as welcome as Smallpox. Pushed off the sidewalks, spat upon, etc.. Why? Because I was white.

Go see for yourself, then rant about my racism.

[ 01-22-2003: Message edited by: Captain Ed ]


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Striker
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain Ed:
Striker - Of course I'm a racist.

We agree on something, at least.

quote:
What's your problem? Did someone pass a law making this "mindset" illegal?

You're entitled to your racist mindset; you can be a bigot if you choose. I don't have a problem with that. I do, however, take issue when you try to say that the color of a person's skin makes them more likely to be a criminal.

I've read studies on this very topic, and the census data used pointed out that crime is related to poverty, not race, and that crime rate among the poor is generally comparable among all the races.

quote:
The very word and it's origin is a bit of a mystery to me. I was admitted to the USMMA at Kings Point in 1949. I was given a pile of books at the time including the current Websters Standard Collegiate Dictionary. The word "racist" does not appear in it's pages.

Perhaps it's time you update your reference library. Civil rights have come a long way since 1949. Society has evolved a bit since then. Sadly, some individuals haven't.

quote:
The sorry mess Senator Lott is in reveals what was there for all to see. Liberals will label anyone they disagree with a "racist". There is no way to get out of the charge if you are the least bit conservative.

Lott's "sorry mess" has nothing to do with malicious labeling by anyone. Lott said we would all be better off had Thurmond had been President, implying support of a pro-segregationist agenda. Nobody had to put a label on him, he showed the world his true colors (no pun intended) that day.

[ 01-22-2003: Message edited by: Striker ]


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smilinjack
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Capt Ed.....

You have lost all creditability here. I will not have your views on non airline issues posted here.

Jack


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ss278
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Thanks, Jack.


Jack M.


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Bob Ritchie
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Revised Webster's Dictionary 1966..(the one that I took to college!)

RACISM(rayss-izm) n. Also racial.ism 1. Discrimination against members of any race because of presumed racial inferiority. 2. The assumption that any race is superior to another.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not something to be proud of. Bob Ritchie

p.s. Thanks Jack


Posts: 1936 | From: Warren County, Missouri  |  IP: Logged
Captain Ed
unregistered


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I recieved the following:

Ed.....

This is just one of the three emails I have had about you. We have a good BB here. If you want to continue to post, I would suggest keeping a few of your opinions to yourself.

Jack

I was just reading the latest post by Captain Ed and I am very offended
by his remarks under the post AA@STL. Do we really need to read that
he is a racist and profess that most white people are? In my humble
opinion that is a subject that does not belong on your very
professional, informative bulletin board. Airline" stuff" and what is
happening with the industry is very important but views like his (even
though he is entitled to his opinion) has no place on Smilin Jack.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I only went to this forum in order to post a message from one of our sons, who had a problem with AA.

The post was met with an insult. I decided to hang around a while.

More insults from politically correct wimps. I responded.

That's what REAL discussions are about.

Now I'm told to knock it off.

I'm outta here.


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Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
Member # 1035

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Ed,

Like they say...."don't let the door..... on your way out."

Good Riddance.

Bob Ritchie


Posts: 1936 | From: Warren County, Missouri  |  IP: Logged
Vince Lombardi
Post Captain
Member # 1546

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FYI.................................


Recently another AA employee in Miami stated that while attending Don Carty's road show the question was posed "which hubs are the most profitable at AA?" The response given by the Finance person present was that all hubs were currently unprofitable, but that MIA was performing the best....and STL by far the worst. Can you substantiate this information as to whether it is rumor -or- present identifiable data with regards to hub profitability.

I cannot confirm what was or was not said at the town hall meeting, but I did obtain some information from our Finance department on our hub profitability rankings.

The calculations for Dec '02 have not been completed so the rankings are for the Dec '01 - Nov '02 time period. Also, none of the hubs were profitable during this period.


12 Month Ranking:

1) DFW
2) SJU
3) MIA
4) ORD
5) STL

3 Month Ranking:

1) DFW
2) MIA
3) ORD
4) STL
5) SJU

Hope this helps.

Renee Hair
Flight Administration


Posts: 142 | From: TWA LLC  |  IP: Logged
Striker
Post Captain
Member # 807

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quote:
Originally posted by Vince Lombardi:
...all hubs were currently unprofitable, but that MIA was performing the best....and STL by far the worst.

STL has never had a strong O&D market, which traditionally brings higher yields. ORD and DFW, on the other hand, do. In the grand scheme of things, STL was supposed to become the east-west connecting hub for the lower yielding tickets, freeing up more capacity in ORD and DFW to take advantage of the higher yielding O&D traffic.

That plan would pretty much keep STL towards the bottom of the list, financially speaking, but it benefits the system as a whole by allowing better use of existing assets.


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Vince Lombardi
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AA has a lot of hubs, so STL is doing better then I
expected to be in the top 5.......................


The profitability is there.........


Vince


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Vince Lombardi
Post Captain
Member # 1546

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Let us not forget the FACT that SWA is reducing flts out of STL...............................now who will these O&D travellers fly on to get to their destination.

Hint: AA

Vince


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Jeff Isenberg
Post Captain
Member # 421

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quote:
Originally posted by Vince Lombardi:
AA has a lot of hubs, so STL is doing better then I
expected to be in the top 5.......................


The profitability is there.........


Vince


Vince -

How are you defining "hubs?" I would argue that AA actually has only 4 true hubs, MIA, DFW, ORD and STL. JFK is more of a gateway and some other stations like LAX, while having a significant number of flights, by my definition is not a true hub because, for the most part, it is not really a station providing banks of connecting flights.

Jeff I.


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Vince Lombardi
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Jeff,

Good point.....bases and hubs are different from an operational standpoint.


Vince


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Drifter
Post Captain
Member # 1613

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quote:
Originally posted by donuway:
Well,,I don't have all day here,,,but I hit on a few of the links,,,and at least STL reported to these people. There seems to be a lot of incomplete data in this report. I didnt pick up on if it said ST Louis METRO area, or the city. Since Lambert is about 8 miles from the city limits, and Florissant MO, the largest community fairly close to Lambert, CONSISTENTLY has one of the lowest crime rates in the country, what does this mean?

Don


Precisely, St. Louis as a dangerous city means nothing to the continued operation of STL as a hub. I live in St. Charles and work at Lambert, and I'm a hell of a lot safer here than I was living in the LA basin and working at LAX. It isn't even close.

If you live in this city in New York and never leave the city limits, hey great you're real safe. But the reality is that we go places. Such a survey as posted above by design can only deceive.


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