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Author
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Topic: Flight Attendant Shortage
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Glasspilot
Post Captain
Member # 390
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by aa777:
The trickle down effect of the cuts naturally hit the most junior (STL).
The most junior because of your (and APFA's) definition. Can't wait till the court cases have their effect. Their can't be a stronger case for seniority adjustment then the TWA flight attendants have.
Glass
Posts: 263 | From: Outer Banks, NC
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aa777
Post Captain
Member # 639
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posted
AA is still short flight attendants and its the beginning of the month. Maybe we will see some recalls soon.
Posts: 60
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L1011Ret
Post Captain
Member # 1792
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posted
That would be nice. On the other hand, maybe they'll tough it out till the fall reductions.
Posts: 416
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Kirkpatrick
Post Captain
Member # 652
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by L1011Ret:
That would be nice. On the other hand, maybe they'll tough it out till the fall reductions.
I think they're in for some tough times. For one, the fall reduction simply isn't that great. Two, attrition will slowly take its toll. 608 for the first half of 2003, 126 for June. Three, there is more vacation time scheduled in the fall and winter. And finally, there are the big holidays of Thanksgiving and Christmas.
I can't see how they can avoid recalling some by spring, barring any further reductions.
MK
Posts: 192 | From: Massapequa (Long Island) NY
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nyc6035
Post Captain
Member # 423
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posted
Kirkpatrick,
How many 'senior' AA folks are there that are on furlough that are ahead of the most Senior fomer TWA FA?
Posts: 268 | From: Chappaqua, NY
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TWAnr
Post Captain
Member # 166
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by nyc6035:
Kirkpatrick,
How many 'senior' AA folks are there that are on furlough that are ahead of the most Senior fomer TWA FA?
quote:
Originally posted by Kirkpatrick on USAviation:
They have 1321 natives on furlough and 1297 on overage leaves to come back before they get to us.
MK
Posts: 782
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nyc6035
Post Captain
Member # 423
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posted
Wow. Figuring 15 FAs to man a plane per month (my guess), that's like a whole 175 more airplanes just to clear the naative list. ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
Posts: 268 | From: Chappaqua, NY
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Kirkpatrick
Post Captain
Member # 652
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by nyc6035:
Wow. Figuring 15 FAs to man a plane per month (my guess), that's like a whole 175 more airplanes just to clear the naative list.
I think the formula is 19 FA's per MD80, but it doesn't mean new aircraft have to arrive to bring people back. Attrition before 9/11 (when lucrative overage leaves with bennies were offered) ran about 1000 per year. And since the fleet isn't being utilized to the fullest, more flights can be added without new aircraft.
It all depends of the economy and what the company does the next couple of years.
MK
Posts: 192 | From: Massapequa (Long Island) NY
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Life_Platinum
Post Captain
Member # 630
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posted
MK: based on the data you provided for us, it will be over 2 years before former TWA FAs would be called back. I suspect you will have a computer software business up and running by that time, and be reluctant to come back to the airline industry.
Certainly was great talking to you in late June while you were deadheading to STL.
Posts: 210 | From: New York, New York
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Life_Platinum
Post Captain
Member # 630
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posted
MK: based on the data you provided for us, it will be over 2 years before former TWA FAs would be called back. I suspect you will have a computer software business up and running by that time, and be reluctant to come back to the airline industry.
Certainly was great talking to you in late June while you were deadheading to STL.
Posts: 210 | From: New York, New York
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Kenneth
Post Captain
Member # 259
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posted
Hi all -
At least this is a start -- press release today (10/10/03) states that 390 attendants will be recalled by Dec 1st. Hopefully traffic will continue to pick up.
Ken
Posts: 160 | From: Philadelphia, PA
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nyc6035
Post Captain
Member # 423
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posted
It's odd that the company went for recalls rather than pulling people off of overage leave. An optimist would say the company must feel pretty strongly about it's future prospects to do this.
That said, seeing how these guys operate, I'm suspicious that AMR went to the forlough list because they're viewing these folks as 'temporary' help to get through any seasonal increases in flying (not to mention some 'insurance' in case there's any NAAtive flu come the Christmans holidays). You'll recall AMR no longer has to pay any severance money to forloughed employees.
That said, this does bring the TWA FAs a little closer to eventual recall. The optimist in me says this is the start of the long road back to getting everyone back in the air...where they belong.
Posts: 268 | From: Chappaqua, NY
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Kirkpatrick
Post Captain
Member # 652
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by nyc6035:
That said, seeing how these guys operate, I'm suspicious that AMR went to the forlough list because they're viewing these folks as 'temporary' help to get through any seasonal increases in flying (not to mention some 'insurance' in case there's any NAAtive flu come the Christmans holidays).
A lot of people are saying that, but the company says the extra people are to staff additional flying they're putting on due to the improving economy. Fleet utilization will increase to accomplish this extra flying.
All in all, it's a very welcome development, especially when you consider that only a few weeks ago many were predicting additional furloughs.
MK
Posts: 192 | From: Massapequa (Long Island) NY
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L1011Ret
Post Captain
Member # 1792
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posted
I agree MK, this looks pretty straight forward. To furlough again early in the year would really invite hostility from labor.
Posts: 416
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Kirkpatrick
Post Captain
Member # 652
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posted
Speaking of hostility, see the "Marriage Counselor" thread on US Aviation. It looks like the company might be acknowledging its horrible employee relations and might actually be preparing to at least attempt to do something about it.
MK
Posts: 192 | From: Massapequa (Long Island) NY
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Captain Ed
unregistered
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posted
Notice in todays rag - AA to recall 390 FA's.
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
Given seniority, will any of the recalls come from TWA?
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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L1011Ret
Post Captain
Member # 1792
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posted
None of the recalls come from TWA because they received no seniority.
Posts: 416
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nyc6035
Post Captain
Member # 423
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TWA Fan 1:
Given seniority, will any of the recalls come from TWA?
TWA Fan 1,
Based upon a post by Kirkpatrick in this thread a couple of months back, there were approximately 2600 NAAtives either on furlough or overage leaves ahead of the most senior TWA FA.
Assuming this recall covers the rate of attrition since July, there are probably about 2200 more to go before the first TWA FA comes back. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 268 | From: Chappaqua, NY
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
My goodness!
Question: Are recalls based solely on seniority or is there also an issue of which base employees are assigned to ? In other words, by cutting back on flights at STL can AA further delay the recall of TWA f/a's since operations are being reduced there Nov. 1 ?
Also, are any TWA pilots being recalled?
[ 10-13-2003, 10:58: Message edited by: TWA Fan 1 ]
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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Retav8r
Post Captain
Member # 251
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posted
quote:
Question: Are recalls based solely on seniority or is there also an issue of which base employees are assigned to ? In other words, by cutting back on flights at STL can AA further delay the recall of TWA f/a's since operations are being reduced there Nov. 1 ?
Also, are any TWA pilots being recalled?
Negative and Negative to both questions! Both F/A and pilot seniority lists were merged with AA's lists although, unfortunately, the TWA F/As were all tacked onto the bottom of the AA F/A list. The pilots fared a little better although even they received the proverbial screwing by AA and the AA pilot's union. Basically, the pilots were integrated on an eight to one seniority basis; eg., eight AA pilots with consecutive seniority numbers and then a TWA type next and so on down the line. Of course, as any active crew member can tell you, this numbering process didn't start with AA's number one pilot; it started somewhere in the middle. The net result was that TWA's number one pilot on the old list wound up with thousands ahead of him even though they had less years of flying as compared to the TWA guy.
All the American F/As will have to be brought back before even one TWA F/A is reinstated, a process that could take a few more years. Ironically, while AA F/As are being recalled, there are still TWA pilots who are being furloughed because of their lack of seniority on the new list.
While I've been retired for three years, I've still kept up with the disheartening saga of the mistreatment of TWA crews by AA. I'm sure that active pilots and F/As can provide more specific answers to any further questions you may have; I'm just glad that I never had to go through this process and, instead, was able to retire at a time when TWA was still a proud airline!
"Capt'n Easy" (born and raised in Brooklyn!) ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 201 | From: San Diego/ San Felipe,Mexico
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Kirkpatrick
Post Captain
Member # 652
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Retav8r:
[QUOTE]All the American F/As will have to be brought back before even one TWA F/A is reinstated, a process that could take a few more years.
Just one slight technicality: there are approximately 900 AA FA's hired after the acquisition who are junior to us, so we're bracketed with 1320 ahead and 900 or so behind.
While 390 doesn't sound like a large number, I still think it's a very promising sign. It's over 10% of those between me and getting my job back, and it's happening way before anyone predicted recalls would start. Let's just hope AA continues to do well and the trend continues.
MK
[ 10-14-2003, 12:34: Message edited by: Kirkpatrick ]
Posts: 192 | From: Massapequa (Long Island) NY
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Bob H
Post Captain
Member # 287
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posted
MK-
Who knows for certain where the future in this business is going.
According to AA's most recent "official" plans.. There will be 4.5% growth in 2004.
What fails to get noticed is that AFTER the labor concessions and the other cost saving changes actually get in place.. AA's unit costs (CASM) will be significantly lower going forward.. In other words, many of what were marginal routes (profit or loss) NOW become profitable and what were losing routes can now be added back into the system.
IMO, Which I've maintained for several months, pilot furloughs will stop by early spring and recalls will occur by the end of 2004. With continuation of the stronger equity markets and overall Global economic growth, the recalls could occur even sooner.
I sincerely hope all is going well with you and wish your return here will be much sooner than many seem to expect.
Sincerely-
Bob H
Posts: 1653
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Bill Sherrod
Post Captain
Member # 418
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Retav8r:
"..Negative and Negative to both questions! Both F/A and pilot seniority lists were merged with AA's lists although, unfortunately, the TWA F/As were all tacked onto the bottom of the AA F/A list. The pilots fared a little better although even they received the proverbial screwing by AA and the AA pilot's union. Basically, the pilots were integrated on an eight to one seniority basis; eg., eight AA pilots with consecutive seniority numbers and then a TWA type next and so on down the line. Of course, as any active crew member can tell you, this numbering process didn't start with AA's number one pilot; it started somewhere in the middle..."
Capt'n Easy,
Your quote above is correct ONLY if applied to the top 47% of the former TWA pilot list. The remaining 53% of the pilots including some of our captains were deemed by the APA to be "..illegitimate..without real career expectations.." and thus were stapled to the bottom of the merged seniority list. Former TWA captains were made junior to AA pilots who had never even completed initial new-hire training.
I just wanted to make sure that everyone understands that small but very important point.
Bill
Posts: 266 | From: FL
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
How many TWA pilots are currently working and how many are there on furlough?
Are any former TWA captains working as AA captains?
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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L1011Ret
Post Captain
Member # 1792
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posted
Does, "..illegitimate..without real career expectations..", appear in written form? What an insult!
Posts: 416
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Bill Sherrod
Post Captain
Member # 418
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by L1011Ret:
Does, "..illegitimate..without real career expectations..", appear in written form? What an insult!
L10,
APA stated in writing that our "legitimate captains" would be feathered into the merged seniority list. Since some got stapled they had to be other than legitimate, hence my word "illegitimate." Perhaps I would have been more precise if I had used the term NOT legitimate.
With respect to the second part, our having "no career expectations" is most certainly in writing.
It was used as an attempt to justify what APA considers a "..Fair and Equitable.." integration of the TWA pilots into AA.
Indeed it was an insult.
Bill
Posts: 266 | From: FL
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donuway
Post Captain
Member # 803
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posted
I'm not an airline employee but,,,,,
I think that we have heard of grumblings from AA FAs about being overworked;
AA is about to have another major shifting around of Jobs with STL basically closing as a hub, just before the Holidays;
Since the last major furlough, I would think a few FAs out of the several thousand that AA employs may have quit or retired;
390 is a drop in the bucket right before the holidays. By the time the holiday season is over, perhaps a few more of of those several thousand may have retired, quit etc. Then the spring rush kicks in, and paying the benefits on a few more FAs is a small price to pay to try to insure a smooth operation through that period.
Does anyone else besides me not think that the several thousand figure that they furloughed a few months back surely wasn't some scientific exact number they arrived at? They can now tweak it back up (which is better than tweaking down more ). Wall Street loves labor cuts, but Labor hated it. Wall street loves a sign of improved business in this case, as does labor. 3 outta 4 ain't bad.
If other airlines step into STL, business won't grow here. AA doesn't exactly have a great name here anymore. I hope for the emloyees sake, they can grow it elsewhere.
Don
Posts: 414 | From: St. Louis, Mo
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Bob Ritchie
Post Captain
Member # 1035
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posted
Bill Sherrod,
"Legitimate" TWA captain was originally defined by the APA as.. ...the last former TWA pilot who had been employed(by TWA/OZA) before ANY concessionary contracts were signed at TWA.
The original, most junior "legitimate" pilot, by such defination, was the last former OZA pilot ever hired and subsiquently integrated into the TWA seniority list. Although TWA had signed a concessionary agreement prior to the merger; OZA never had a concessionary agreement and so Todd was grandfathered as "legitimate."
In the original APA proposal,everyone below Todd Muschany was to be stapled...as they had come to work for TWA after the first concessionary contract. Ultimately the APA added about 400 more pilots to the list who were not stapled; despite their sinful act of having accepted employement with an airline that had less than an industry standard contract.
How twisted can logic become? It always amazed me that; even if the APA felt justified in such characterization, they would have the audacity to say so publicly. Applying similiar logic now; in the face of our AA concessionary contract, one could suggest that all 13,995 current, American Airline pilots are forever.........
.................ILLEGITIMATE!!
What can one say?
Bob Ritchie
[ 10-14-2003, 22:48: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]
Posts: 1737 | From: Warren County, Missouri
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Bill Sherrod
Post Captain
Member # 418
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob Ritchie:
"..How twisted can logic become? It always amazed me that; even if the APA felt justified in such characterization, they would have the audacity to say so publically. Applying similiar logic now; in the face of our AA concessionary contract, one could suggesst that all 13,995 current, American Airline pilots are forever.........
.................ILLEGITIMATE!!.."
AMEN! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Bill
Posts: 266 | From: FL
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B-757-200
Post Captain
Member # 430
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Ritchie:
Ultimately the APA added about 400 more pilots to the list who were not stapled; despite their sinful act of having accepted employement with an airline that had less than an industry standard contract.
Yeah, don't look now, but AA is'nt even in the top FIVE of highest-paid airline pilots!
I'd certainly call 23% pay cuts CONCESSIONARY.
'Illegitimate' is'nt the word to describe these boneheads.
Posts: 1278 | From: Los Angeles,Ca,USA
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
quote:
"Capt'n Easy" (born and raised in Brooklyn!)
Don,
Which neighborhood of Kings County did you grow up in?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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AAflyingbrian67
Post Captain
Member # 2419
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posted
the most junior f/a called back have a seniorty date of 6/22/00. I think TWA seniorty date is 4/14/01. (I am sorry if I have the date wrong) So if you want to go by months, the most senior TWA was 10 months away in seniorty from being called back.
F/As are leaving and retiring. Not as fast as I would like to see but, they are leaving. I am sure there will be more call backs in the spring and summer. Also remember not all 390 called back f/as are going to come back to AA. As time goes on more laid off employees will not chose to come back to AA.
Posts: 48 | From: Miami
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Retav8r
Post Captain
Member # 251
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posted
TWA Fan 1...
Flatbush (Crook Ave.); two blocks from Prospect Park, two blocks from Parade grounds, close to Church and Ocean Aves. It was a great place back in the fifties. Now, at least where I grew up, it looks like a war zone! The areas that were run down back then (Park Slope) are now Yuppievilles.
Still a great city but the sun on the west coast is better!
Posts: 201 | From: San Diego/ San Felipe,Mexico
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
Retav8r,
I'm sure you remember an area of Flatbush named Prospect Park South. It's gone through quite a renaissance in the past ten years. The big Victorian houses there (remember that movie "Sophie's Choice"?) now sell for about a million bucks.
It's pretty yuppiefied too, by the way.
The funny thing is you walk a few blocks out of your way onto Coney Island Ave or Church Ave and it's a totally different world (low-rent discount stores, Halal fired chicken shops, shady Russian night clubs, and Jamaican fast food joints).
You're right, the climate doesn't compare to the West Coast. By the way, (full disclosure) we live in Park Slope, but we were fairly early pioneers and we've done quite well indeed (when I was born my family lived in Crown Heights).
Perhaps now that the Dodgers are being sold they'll do the right thing and bring them home!
Best,
T-1
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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Dick Nicklas
Post Captain
Member # 934
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Retav8r:
TWA Fan 1...
Flatbush (Crook Ave.); two blocks from Prospect Park, two blocks from Parade grounds, close to Church and Ocean Aves. It was a great place back in the fifties. Now, at least where I grew up, it looks like a war zone! The areas that were run down back then (Park Slope) are now Yuppievilles.
Still a great city but the sun on the west coast is better!
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East 7th St. in Flatbush, just a short trolley ride to Prospect Pk. or Brighton Beach, was home.
Got to go back some day for a visit.
Nick
Posts: 120 | From: 4555 S. Landings Dr Ft Myers Fl 33919
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TWA Fan 1
Post Captain
Member # 1926
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dick Nicklas:
**************************************************
East 7th St. in Flatbush, just a short trolley ride to Prospect Pk. or Brighton Beach, was home.
Got to go back some day for a visit.
Nick
"Trolley ride!" I'm afraid you dating yourself Dick. Don't worry the BMT (the "Q" train) still runs to Brighton Beach (although the Stilwell Terminal will be closed for at least a few more months while they renovate it).
And Prospect Park has made a huge comeback; I think it's the nicest park in New York City now. I've produced a number of commercials in Prospect Park as a stand-in for Italy and I have had many people come up to me and say "Did you shoot that in the Veneto?"
T-1
[ 10-16-2003, 15:44: Message edited by: TWA Fan 1 ]
Posts: 400 | From: Brooklyn, NY
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