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Posted by extwacaptain (Member # 381) on :
 
Remember The Year Before The Merger?

There was a completely out of control bashing of TWA’s management by a “very few” employees, exercising their “freedom of speech” on a popular message board at the time.

What effect, if any, did this have on the company’s ability to survive?

I do not know the answer to that question, but not knowing answers does not slow most of us down, certainly not me.

Let me give you the opinion of an aviation expert (and a friend) regarding the image created by the daily barrage of criticism of our Captain Compton, TWA’s management team, the outlook for the survival of our company, the stock and you name it.

In his opinion, comments by a few employees created a concern about all of our employees. Everyone on this board is aware that there has never been a more dedicated and loyal group of employees, anywhere, ever. But the comments of a few were very effective and, in my mind, very DESTRUCTIVE to our company.

As a result of some of this PUBLIC company criticism by employees, I have been told, and believe it true, the lease rate for our airplanes was increased.

Many have expressed the belief that TWA ALMOST made it. Those lease rates could very well have been the straw that broke the camel’s back.


Randy Kramer
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
Captain Randy-

It's always nice to see your comments.

Not many of you had any access to the old TWAcrew.com web site pilot MB. (It was TWA's pvt MB for TW pilots/flight ops).

Most of the (TW pilot) individuals you now see/read doing most of the AA bashing and expressing their great support of TWA.. Were the exact same individuals who never missed the opportunity to bad mouth TWA or/and TW management EVERY DAY on the old TWA MB.

Prior to AA's acquisition AND 9/11.. Nearly 1 of 4 TW pilots had applications/resumes out with OTHER airlines and openly expressed their HUGE desire to get out of this place (meaning TWA).

I hope you and your lovely much younger bride are doing well and missed all of the smoke last month.

Very Respectfully-

Bob H
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bob H:
Most of the (TW pilot) individuals you now see/read doing most of the AA bashing and expressing their great support of TWA.. Were the exact same individuals who never missed the opportunity to bad mouth TWA or/and TW management EVERY DAY on the old TWA MB.

Prior to AA's acquisition AND 9/11.. Nearly 1 of 4 TW pilots had applications/resumes out with OTHER airlines and openly expressed their HUGE desire to get out of this place (meaning TWA).

Bob, I am an AA/APA-basher, but rarely posted on that TWAcrew.com site.

About resumes, yes, I had apps out when I was at TWA, but I'm working at an airline now, and STILL have apps out. After 7 airlines, 5 furloughs and 1 unfair seniority integration, you learn to ALWAYS keep your options open. At my first airline, a charter company, while age 27 and flying as F/O on a DC-10 on international routes with 12 young, gorgeous F/As every trip, I got a little too comfortable. The company started to downsize and next thing you know, was bankrupt and shut down. An old Captain from that charter gave me some advice which I always remembered---"You never, EVER stop sending out resumes". If I was at DL, NW or UA, I'd still send them out or apply online elsewhere occasionally, just in case.

You never know what might happen. When the AA/TWA seniority list gets re-done after the lawsuit concludes, then some very junior AA pilots might be furloughed, so they should be sending out resumes as well.
 
Posted by Captain Ed (Member # 2263) on :
 
I have seen a steady decline in the quality of TWA Management, beginning with Tillinghast, and culminating with Ichan.

Self interest decisions in place of the interests of the company.

That will kill any corporation.
 
Posted by Irish (Member # 722) on :
 
Icahn, Ed! Icahn! Chan was a Chinese detective.
 
Posted by Skyking (Member # 120) on :
 
Paul,

Here was this guy who was changing our lives forever, and probably 40% could not even spell his name correctly.

Icon, Ikon, Ichan, Icahn, Iconn, Carl, Karl, or Karol... ?

So what if Capt. Toaner didn't get it right!

Ward... that's Miles not Myles!

[ 11-23-2003, 20:18: Message edited by: Skyking ]
 
Posted by reasonableman (Member # 2561) on :
 
About resumes, yes, I had apps out when I was at TWA, but I'm working at an airline now, and STILL have apps out. After 7 airlines, 5 furloughs and 1 unfair seniority integration, you learn to ALWAYS keep your options open. At my first airline, a charter company, while age 27 and flying as F/O on a DC-10 on international routes with 12 young, gorgeous F/As every trip, I got a little too comfortable. The company started to downsize and next thing you know, was bankrupt and shut down. An old Captain from that charter gave me some advice which I always remembered---"You never, EVER stop sending out resumes". If I was at DL, NW or UA, I'd still send them out or apply online elsewhere occasionally, just in case.

You never know what might happen. When the AA/TWA seniority list gets re-done after the lawsuit concludes, then some very junior AA pilots might be furloughed, so they should be sending out resumes as well. [/QB][/QUOTE]


Another classic.

Amazingly, a few people here tend to believe that despite the fact that AMR was forced to lay off thousands of its own peple as a result of the economy and 9/11, somehow the exalted TWA members should be given not just a chance to keep their job when they had no chance without AMR, but preferential treatment above the genuine employees of AA. I have trouble grasping that concept. Had the events of 9/11 never happened but the buyout had we would all still have jobs. No 9/11, no buyout, NO TWA and AA employees would still have their jobs now for the most part. That would be ideal. TWA has been protected inside the STL fence so much that despite the fact I barely hold a decent FO bid there are many TWA pilots junior to me holding Captain slots in STL.

What magic power is going to side with you on this one when your assets were bought out of bankruptcy and your unions were required to waive seniority rights as a pre requisite to the buyout?

You could have been on the street 2 years ago. Your sense of entitlement is befuddling.
BTW I never send out any resumes.
 
Posted by MD80Capt (Member # 1717) on :
 
Just a quick question......I have not posted here before, but I notice a certain constant through all the different postings, both here and on the other site, and that is, Bob H. is always defending AA and the APA, it seems any time there is a chance to rationalize Supp CC he is right there doing just that.

Am I wrong in this observation???

Chris
 
Posted by L1011Ret (Member # 1792) on :
 
Your observations are correct. A lot of pilots are angry with his stance.
 
Posted by TW1 (Member # 479) on :
 
I know Bob isn't any "happier" about cc. than anyone else. Reality is that is where we are and until something is changed, Bob attempts to understand and inform people about supp.cc.
Unfortunately He takes alot of abuse for doing so.
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MD80Capt:
Just a quick question......I have not posted here before, but I notice a certain constant through all the different postings, both here and on the other site, and that is, Bob H. is always defending AA and the APA, it seems any time there is a chance to rationalize Supp CC he is right there doing just that.

Am I wrong in this observation???

Chris

Chris-

Since you asked a "quick question" (about me) I'll try to give you a "quick answer".

Unlike you, I have posted A LOT of messages here [Smile] .

I'll also note your SJ's contribution and it's intent seems a little odd being added nearly 3 months after my comment to Randy's original message in this thread.

I'll start right out by READILY admitting there are a number of TW pilots who have not put me on their Christmas card list! You may find that many/most of those individuals share just a couple of things in common..

1. They are non-members of the APA (like you).

2. They were/are incensed that they were stapled below the AA pilots with DOH's senior to 4/10/01 (since you are one of those pilots stapled below 4/10/01, it would only be a guess that you are incensed by it).

3. They are currently furloughed (like you).

4. During the AA/TW integration talks (Jan 2001 through Nov 2001) they were unwilling to accept the weaker BARGAINING position of the TW pilots and were unwilling to accept the "BEST" deal offered by the APA & AA to the TW pilots (since I don't remember ever talking to you, I have no idea where you stood on the integration issue).

---------

Now that that part is cleared up..

For the record-

Over the past several years I was frequently asked by the ALPA MEC & LEC to provide analysis to the TW/ALPA merger committee and input through the ALPA/Communication Committee.

After Supp CC was agreed to by both the APA BOD and AA management in Nov 2001 and a ruling by the NMB determining single carrier status.. I was ASKED to be chairman of the STL/APA Supp CC *EDUCATION* committee. It was apparently believed by those that asked, that I was as knowledgeable as any other TW pilot regarding the implications of Supp CC impacting the TW pilots. Over the past two years, I have readily been willing to give up this position to ANY other pilot who was willing and able to provide information and understanding to the pilots regarding Supp CC. No one else seems interested.. HOW ABOUT YOU??

Apparently you (and the other TW pilots you note) don't like it when I provide details of Supp CC that not only dispute the nonsense they want others to believe but there are actually longer term benefits to Supp CC that some pilots don't seem interested in.. YES, I KNOW, you are now furloughed and thus NO Supp CC benefits.. YES, I know, if you had gotten the AA seniority number you felt you deserved, you would not be furloughed now and some native AA pilot would be on the street and you (and other) TW pilots would all be flying as Captains like you/they were.

Well.. In case no one noticed.. The TW pilots did NOT get the seniority numbers they believed they should get. Because of that and the shrinking airline, the majority of TW pilots and 100% of the TW FA's and many thousands of other former TW employees are not receiving AA pay checks.. IT SUCKS!! I WISH IT COULD BE DIFFERENT. I'D LOVE TO HAVE MY 30 YEAR SENIORITY AT AA AND BE IN THE TOP 250 OF THE COMBINED LIST!! DIDN'T HAPPEN!! The judge determined it's NOT going to happen and, like it or not, IMO, the appeal will also fail.. SO.. NOW life must go on albeit FAR different from how we would like it to be.

In all likelihood, anyone whom has ever met me or read much of what I've written, has at one point or another not agreed with me or downright didn't like me.. I've never tried to win a popularity contest. I have made every attempt to answer thousands of questions with complete honesty even though it was not what I knew the other person wanted to hear.

If you can find ANY statements I've made that, as you claim above, are rationalized and nothing more than an obscured "defense" of AA, APA, Supp CC or for that matter TWA or ALPA.. Please bring them to my attention and provided you can provide the support to dispute what I wrote, I will readily admit my error(s).

Until then, I guess you'll just have to keep me off your holiday card list.

As usual, not a very "quick" answer for your "quick" but obvious question and intent.

Bob H

[ 02-04-2004, 16:08: Message edited by: Bob H ]
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Chris,

You are dead-on, 100 percent accurate in your observation. I don't even have to read Bob H's post to know what it says. The problem is, in my opinion that Bob H's rants have gone way beyond just the simple posting of numbers. In my opinion they served to actually work AGAINST the TWA pilots.

How many of us have heard from SNBs about how the TWA pilots STAPLED the OZ guys? I have. I've even heard Bob H's named used in reference to this as the source of this rumor. A rumor that was openly used by the SNBs and their APA to justify their abhorent treatment of the TWA pilots (you and me!)

This is not something that anyone who was a former TWA pilot should be proud of. And, it my opinion, it raises serious questions regarding motives of individuals who would shamefully participate in efforts AGAINST the TWA pilots.

HAWKMAN

[ 02-04-2004, 17:50: Message edited by: HAWKMAN ]
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
Hawkman,

The APA/AA merger attorney and the OZA merger attorney was the same individual.

There was no confusion within the APA as to what happened during the OZA/TWA merger. None whatsoever!!

All they had to do was ask their lawyer. I am sure that he kept them fully informed. It is not difficult to believe that their lawyer wanted to extract his pound of flesh from the TWA pilot group. He was still smarting from the loss that his client suffered in 1986. Lawyers are like the rest of us....they don't like to lose.


Bob Ritchie
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by HAWKMAN:
Chris,

""..in my opinion that Bob H's rants have gone way beyond just the simple posting of numbers.""


""In my opinion they served to actually work AGAINST the TWA pilots.""

""I've even heard Bob H's named used in reference to this as the source of this rumor.""

""A rumor that was openly used by the SNBs and their APA to justify their abhorent treatment of the TWA pilots (you and me!)""

""And, it my opinion, it raises serious questions regarding motives of individuals who would shamefully participate in efforts AGAINST the TWA pilots.""

HAWKMAN

As I noted in my earlier message..

IF ANYONE wants to provide support for THEIR rumors, accusations & innuendos (based on all I've been accused of, it shouldn't be hard to find [Wink] ).. MAY I ASK AGAIN!!! Just provide the support for your "claims" and I'll accept full responsibility.

Then again, I guess it's just a lot easier to blame someone else for what happens that you don't seem to like.

For those who did not know, the AA merger committee had the full text of the TW/OZ integration document from the very beginning and IT DID NOT COME FROM ME.. One would think by now that these "experts" frequently expressing their comments here and other web sites would have know that the APA attorney was the exact same attorney that OZ pilots had in 1986.. THEN AGAIN IT SOUNDS SOOOO MUCH BETTER TO SAY BOB H PROVIDED THE INFORMATION TO THE APA..

On the other board I KEEP asking.. Why was I never deposed by the TW pilots as they pursued how many suits now? Certainly if I did as you (and others) claim you could have me deposed and help your legal pursuit.. THAT IS **IF** YOU WERE TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT ME WHICH YOU AREN'T!!..

I do agree with Gary Hawk's conclusion above.. The OZ pilots (including CA's), were by DOH methodology integrated into the TW seniority list at or near the same percentage ratio as the TW pilots were integrated into the AA seniority list albeit not using the DOH methodology. Now if Gary would care to dispute that, I'll be very happy to see his analysis.


One thing that should be very puzzling to most anyone reading this;

The former TW/ALPA leadership that individuals like Gary Hawk support had FULL CONTROL of (those are mostly the same individuals I mentioned earlier who do not have me on their holiday gift list. They are ALSO the same individuals who are either the named plaintiff's in the suits against AA/APA & ALPA or provide support for them);

* The TWA MEC including Bob Pastore as the TWA MEC Chairman.

* 3 of 5 of the TW/ALPA merger committee members voted against the AA/APA final offer in DCA in Oct 2001 and against the recommendation of their own highly paid legal counsel.

In other words guys like myself had zero control of the actual events during the integration yet are now blamed because the integration turned out so negatively. Whatever happened to those TW pilots who claimed they were in control and were there because they were supported by the majority of the TW pilots? I seem to remember the Nov 2001 Marriott PEP RALLY (that was the ALPA meeting) where EVERY individual I wanted in control of my future was voted out while EVERYONE YOU wanted was elected.. OR DID YOU FORGET?

I bet I can find all sorts of grandiose claims of how Bond, Talent & Carnahan were going to make certain this integration would be corrected. Then there are all of the claims of how the legal pursuit was going to prevail. NOPE.. It must be Bob H's fault that approximately half of the TW pilots lost from 12 years to 1 day as they were integrated/stapled into AA's seniority list.. Oh by the way, since you asked, the AA pilot next to me was hired ~16 years after me.

NOW.. IF Gary or Chris or anyone else would like to provide something to back up their usual "rumors" and "innuendos".. Then we could actually have a discussion?

Bob H

[ 02-04-2004, 18:48: Message edited by: Bob H ]
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Bob,

Your missive says it all. You sir, in my opinion, are an expert at BS, subterfuge, smoke and mirrors. Your rambling posts serve as evidence to what I speak is true. Where even to begin? Well, let's just take a couple of points. . .

You refuse to admit that you worked against the TWA pilots. Something that I believe to be absolutely true.

You claim that you "agree" with my conclusions. But then add your typical smoke and mirror BS. What is it, exactly that you do agree with? That the OZ pilots were NOT stapled? That somehow, your maligned, twisted figures make these two mergers seem the same? You are kidding right? If you're not there's only ONE possible motive that I can even come up with for you to even want to do this!

You keep going on and on regarding deposition. Why would you be disposed? First, we haven't even yet seen our day in court. Second, were you some sort of major player in the merger? Third, were you in some sort of decision making capacity regarding the merger? Bob, I think you are giving yourself way too much credit here. Don't you think?

You try to insinuate that we blame you for the way the integration turned out. Well, Bob, even with regard to the previous paragraph, in part, yes I do. At least I'm giving you PART of the blame. I've explained this before in detail and you refuse to believe that your posts and other information was used by the SNBs and their APA to justify the red tail cleansing. What more can I say?

Bob, you and several others seem to be obsessed with espousing your view that you were right during the merger. Unfortunately, time has not proven you right or wrong. Only the outcome of the TWA pilot's litigation will answer this.

Considering your apparent obsession in this regard, I completely understand why you would write some of the posts that you do and shamefully and actively NOT support the TWA pilots' effort to seek justice.

HAWKMAN

[ 02-04-2004, 20:39: Message edited by: HAWKMAN ]
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by reasonableman:
No 9/11, no buyout, NO TWA and AA employees would still have their jobs now for the most part. That would be ideal. TWA has been protected inside the STL fence so much that despite the fact I barely hold a decent FO bid there are many TWA pilots junior to me holding Captain slots in STL.

You could have been on the street 2 years ago. Your sense of entitlement is befuddling.
BTW I never send out any resumes.

MMmmm, sounds like sour grapes. Someone with a sense of entitlement that thinks this industry owes them a living, perhaps?

YOUR stinking union created CC, not us; if you're frustrated with that or the STL Captain protections, or the fact that when recalled I'll be making more money than you, tell your elected reps or join that group of radical idiots, the APAPDP.

If you think for one second that AA would'nt have furloughed THOUSANDS even without the TWA buyout, nor lost BILLIONS of dollars and downsized because of LCCs eating their lunch, you're smoking crack.

YOU coffee, ME kettle--- you calling me black???

Sense of entitlement, indeed; look in the mirror, pal. Thank your lucky stars AA bought TWA and furloughed US instead of YOU. [Razz]
 
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
 
Reasonableable, u said :

I have trouble grasping that concept.

There are alot of concepts that many of the APA and AMR pilots fail to grasp unless it involves arrogance or greed.

The reason there are people senior to you, is because they started work before you. The reason, STL has a fence around is because APA didn't totally clense the AMR pilot seniority list of all the red tails. You say, there are STL Captains that are junior to you and flying Capt. Get a clue, these guys have 30 years of experience and brought airplanes and slots. The deal that Don Carty, Judas John, and Eddie Saks agreed to was to take the airplanes AND the employees of TWA, period...that is an undisputable fact, that is recorded in the BK courts, senate hearing and the merger documents.

But unless it involves arrogance or greed, you won't agree with me. But I'll make you happy. Out of the approx. 23,000 TWA employess that were there at the time of the merger, only 2100-2300 remain, and you're here whining, while nearly 85% of TWA employees took furloughs so that AMR employees wouldn't have to. Was that greed ? Yes. To whine that only 600 TWA slots were protected out of 2200 is arrogant.

But it gets better. When you look at the seniority list and see Capt TWA (for example) as being 500 numbers junior to you, but still a Capt, the most likely reaction is to be upset. But obviously you forgot that the reason Capt TWA is junior to you is because of the one-sided, rape and rob seniority list that was shoved down the throat of the TWA pilots. If Capt TWA even got half credit for his years of service 15-17 this would be a non-event. Remember, the reason people are senior to you is because they started before you, if you forgot.

But thats still not good enough for you, because we haven't given you enough greed and arrogance for one day. Of course, you're a self proclaimed aviation expert and know without a doubt that TWA was going out, and you predicted Continental's demise, American's near-bankruptcy, United's BK, America West which had a similar balance sheet as TWA, which is hiring, Valujet remerging as AirTran, etc. etc. You have no clue, what other options were presented to the TWA board prior to AMR agreeing to purchase our assets, no idea. The unions were in talks with Boeing, which would have resulted in the ouster of the TWA CEO. He choose to go to Don Carty (wouldn't you if there was a golden parachute so he could enjoy drinks with umbrellas).
TWA was instructed to declare BK, so the purchase could go thru without the baggage of Uncle Carl Icahn and the restructuring of all of TWA's new airplane, lease-payments-which were 3 times what AMR was paying at the time...but as an expert in the field you knew that.

But that's just ignorance not to do a little research, but instead just make claims that you know what is going to happen on the aviation industry. I'm glad you know, because the experts are surprised on a daily basis. And I suppose the reason you don't have resumes out is because you're such an expert. One more AA AAirbus tAAil-snAAping AAcrobAAics, and you may be wishing you had a few resumes out in the field.
But I will tell you this, most pilot recruiters won't even consider NAAtive pilots because of their arrogant, whinny, prima donna, "so-called" experts, unsafe flying(accident record speaks for itself-BDL,Cali,JFK,ORD,LIT), and high maint. And because they are SNB NAAtives-the title speaks volumes.

But that can't be all. You're arrogance will lead you to say, that TWA pilots don't deserve to fly on our equipment and don't deserve to have a protected cell. Well, then get all of the 2000/2001 new hires out of the TWA seats and recall the TWA pilots that were Captains and had 15 years of seniority. We brought airplanes and seats to the party, and you know who is sitting in them ? AMR new hires. Now that's arrogant, to whine that you guys are getting screwed by the TWA guys. Well Einstein, when Judas John, Conman and Eddie Saks crafted Supp CC, they intended to screw as many red tails as possible, and they did...and you still want more ??? C'mon...does the arrogance of a SNB ever stop ?

You show me ANY, I mean ANY, Major Airline that has pilots on the street AND that has 2000/2001 hires still on the property while 15 year captains were scabbed out of their seats. It's because Supp CC SCREWED the TWA pilots, and you are whinning. Now that's greedy, and that's arrogance and everyone in aviation knows it.

Next time you jumpseat on USAir, United, or talk to your guard buddies, ask them what the nickname for the AMR NAAtives is:

And also ask them how well your pilot group treated the TWA pilots. Dont be surprised if you're compared to dog fecces.

Get a clue, einstein.

[ 02-07-2004, 13:45: Message edited by: chrispy ]
 
Posted by love to fly (Member # 2477) on :
 
Chirpsy,

You sure are angry. Must be real fun to fly with you. Stop blaming others, don't see much of what you are ranting about AA pilots from crews at USAir, Delta, etc... Your situation is bad and we all know it, alot of airline people are in the same boat. Someone was going to get "screwed" with the buyout of TWA, sorry it was you. More sorry about 9/11 and its aftermath. Pretty harsh to say such foul things about AA pilots and their abilities with regards to terrible accidents! Guess you never heard how the pilots at the big airlines talked about why the guys at TWA were there and not at a major airline? Your mean spirited comments do no good for anyone. Use your time off to reflect and let go of the anger before you get an ulcer. Hope you, and everyone else who actually wants to be here, get back to AA soon, but bring a nicer attitude please!
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Chrispy,

Excellent post. 100 percent dead-on accurate. The SNBs should be downright ashamed for their treatment of the TWA pilots. Speaking of shamefull, let's interpret love's post; "we screwed you guys BIG TIME. . .get over it. . .and let me kick you with a few insults while your down and unemployed." Sad thing is this person isn't even willing to THANK YOU for saving their job! SHAMEFULL at best. . .but typical SNB.

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by love to fly:
Guess you never heard how the pilots at the big airlines talked about why the guys at TWA were there and not at a major airline? Your mean spirited comments do no good for anyone. Use your time off to reflect and let go of the anger before you get an ulcer.

Aaahhh, genius, TWA was a 'major airline'. It had over $1 billion in annual revenues, flew almost 200 jets to over 115 cities on 4 continents, with a worldwide 4% market share of ALL passengers carried.

What if we wanted to be here and not THERE?

As for your last sentence, an old Chinese proverb once said:

"Do not judge another man unless you have walked 1000 miles in his shoes."

Heed that advice before making 'reflect and let go' recommendations, please.
 
Posted by Jeff I. (Member # 2334) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by B-757-200:
quote:
Originally posted by love to fly:
Guess you never heard how the pilots at the big airlines talked about why the guys at TWA were there and not at a major airline? Your mean spirited comments do no good for anyone. Use your time off to reflect and let go of the anger before you get an ulcer.

Aaahhh, genius, TWA was a 'major airline'. It had over $1 billion in annual revenues, flew almost 200 jets to over 115 cities on 4 continents, with a worldwide 4% market share of ALL passengers carried.

What if we wanted to be here and not THERE?

As for your last sentence, an old Chinese proverb once said:

"Do not judge another man unless you have walked 1000 miles in his shoes."

Heed that advice before making 'reflect and let go' recommendations, please.

And I'd also add that until the very last few years (primarily after Gitner took the axe to JFK), TWA, notwithstanding Carl's sellout of LHR to AA, still had a larger presence at JFK than AA.

Not a major airline???? Yeah, right.

Jeff I.
 
Posted by love to fly (Member # 2477) on :
 
Once again can't say anything here. I was referring to Chirpsy's hatred, mean spirit and foul comments. Deny that they are such? If you think it is a big person who spews hateful statements about the pilots involved in airline crashes you are sick too.

As for B767, The same goes for you, don't judge the "SNB"'s so harshly until you have walked in their shoes. We did not ask to buy you and are not to be blamed for it happening.

You spout hateful comments, mix in some facts, and sit around slamming AA employees for your misfortune. Blame those in charge, management.

We all wish the buyout had never happened! Might still be a peaceful place around here. Sure, we would have furloughs still, but we would not have people who hated us simply because we had the good fortune to be hired by AA and not TWA.
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
"Blame those in charge, management."

Again. . .so typical SNB. I seem to remember hearing about something called the "Supplement CC." This document defines the terms of the forced "integration," for the pilots. The document was signed by both management. . .and the AMERICAN PILOTS.

Bottom line, the "blame someone else," stratagem doesn't work here. . .there is no defense for the shamefully egregious treatment of the TWA pilots and the other thousands of TWA employees.

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by AABob (Member # 636) on :
 
What's an SNB?

SCAB something or other?
 
Posted by Jeff I. (Member # 2334) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by love to fly:
Once again can't say anything here. I was referring to Chirpsy's hatred, mean spirit and foul comments. Deny that they are such? If you think it is a big person who spews hateful statements about the pilots involved in airline crashes you are sick too.

As for B767, The same goes for you, don't judge the "SNB"'s so harshly until you have walked in their shoes. We did not ask to buy you and are not to be blamed for it happening.

You spout hateful comments, mix in some facts, and sit around slamming AA employees for your misfortune. Blame those in charge, management.

We all wish the buyout had never happened! Might still be a peaceful place around here. Sure, we would have furloughs still, but we would not have people who hated us simply because we had the good fortune to be hired by AA and not TWA.

Although it doesn't excuse the culpability of the aforementioned by Hawkman et al., however, I do give a nod that part of the blame should be directed at management ..... TWA management for putting their hardworking employees at the mercy of AA.

Jeff I.
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by love to fly:
As for B767, The same goes for you, don't judge the "SNB"'s so harshly until you have walked in their shoes. We did not ask to buy you and are not to be blamed for it happening.

You spout hateful comments, mix in some facts, and sit around slamming AA employees for your misfortune. Blame those in charge, management.

If you mean me, B-757-200, do you mean walk in the shoes of the 2001 new-hire, junior, just-off-probation AA pilots who are still working (sitting in MY seat, flying out of MY domicile, in MY airplane) while I'm on the street? You mean walk in the shoes of still-working pilots who were hired long after me while I'm furloughed?

Blame is two-fold here, both AA unions and management.
 
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
 
Love to Fly,

Thanks for confirming what the rest of the airline industry knows....AA NAAtives = Arrogance and greed..thank you, I appreciate you validating my post.

What is a SNB ? Don't ask a TWA pilot, ask anyone else in the industry...anyone. Even CFIs at the local flight school.

Love to Fly, here's the deal, even though you come up with another lame rebuttal. You're APA Pilot's said that the TWA pilots were K-mart pilot while the NAAtive pilots were Nordstrom/Saks 5th Avenue pilots (Ed White , APA Nego Chairman). Now, love to fly, when u guys are so much more superior than the TWA pilots, why do u guys loss an airplane hull at a rate of one a year-due to PILOT ERROR. Before, Ed White goes on to say how great the NAAtive pilots ARE COMPARED to the TWA pilots, and that's their justification for screwing them, tell him and you to look in the mirror.

In the 65 years that TWA pilots flew Internationally, we never got arrested for arrogantly flippin' off the host country.

Hateful comments, you bet, when your job gets scabbed by new hires and you lose your job/house/marriage/health due to unfair arrogance and greed, the 20,000 TWA employees won't get mad, they'll get even. Hope you studied the USAir /Piedmont merger history and subsequent failure, because the fireworks are about to start.

Cant wait to be called back !!! Do you know what red-circling an airplane means ?

You arrogant idiots made you bed, and guess what, we're going to make you lay in it. You had a CHOICE to be fair...even if you gave us a fraction of our seniority, a fraction, you arrogant, greedy pigs, you wouldnt face these problems, but like typical /SNBs...we will remind you of your injustice for the next 30-40 years. You're choice, take responsibilty for your arrogant choice.

Well love to fly, just remember, pigs get fatter, HOGS like the architects of the TWA screw job will get slaughtered.
 
Posted by love to fly (Member # 2477) on :
 
Chirpsy,

No arguing with you and your hatred! I will start the petition to get you back, full DOH, today. What was I thinking, you deserve my seat. You and your attitude are just what we need here, talk about arrogant! I guess you will fit right in! I should suffer rather than you, because that is the only way you will stop your hateful rants. Our families should all suffer! I will do it, I will atone for my horrible behavior. I was not a member of management or the union committee, so what they did to you is all my fault. I see the light now. I did this to you. I ruined your life. Sorry Chirpsy, I will get the word out today! DOH for Chirpsy, he deserves it! He is actually arrogant enough to be one of us! I now understand that TWA was in a great position when AA bought it, a thriving airline with great career expectations. I know this is what you would do if the tables were turned, so I will too!
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
"Well love to fly, just remember, pigs get fatter, HOGS like the architects of the TWA screw job will get slaughtered."

Posted by Chrispy,

##################################################
##################################################


Chrispy,

Obviously you never spent much time on a hog farm. Otherwise you would know that they all end up on someone's platter; except those that are kept for breeding new slaughter pigs.

Come to think of it; that is kind of what has been going on in this industry since deregulation.

Bob Ritchie


p.s. As I mentioned on another thread;after the OZA captains were flushed from our seats in 1990; a very angry former OZA captain said to me: "Bob, know your enemy and kill him before he kills you!" I was ALPA's aeromedical chairman then and management asked me to help this pilot.

In response to my efforts:the enraged,former captain/friend of mine, threatened to kill me as well. A few months later the company forced him to undergo psychiatric counciling. As a result of his 'unresolved anger;' the FAA pulled his medical certificate and "BANNED HIM FOR LIFE" from ever again possessing an airman's certificate.

Fourteen years and a new airline later,it is clear to me, that AA is even less forgiving of such matters than was TWA.

How we respond to life's inequities can have a profound effect, not only upon our personal peace and that of our families; but even one's ability to practice our chosen profession.

[ 02-09-2004, 08:25: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
All,

"after the OZA captains were flushed from our seats in 1990"

Don't let this statement fool you. All OZ captains were not forced from their seats in 1990. Some OZ captains did lose their seats due to being merged into a more senior pilot group via DATE OF HIRE.

If anyone has any questions regarding how the OZ pilots were integrated into TWA the full date-of hire OZ merger agreement is available for viewing 24/7 at www.twapaf.com.

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
Hawkman,

I apologise for an incomplete statement. I should have said.........

.......suffering from a "CRAMDOWN" seniority integration signed with a "GUN TO THEIR HEADS" and having been "DENIED" the protection of "ALPA'S MERGER POLICY"...former OZA captains: representing more than "2/3 OF THE OZA CAPTAIN STATUS", having been placed within the "BOTTOM 16%" of the combined seniority list, using a "TWA PILOT IMPOSED METHODOLOGY", which "LARGLY REFLECTED" the seniority denegration suffered by the TWA pilots in the AA/TWA merger, the former OZA captains suffering "RESTRICTIONS" which would last more than 17 years and prevent the OZA captains from exercising their seniority.....the vast majority of the former OZA captains with up to "18 YEARS OF SENIORITY AND LENGTH OF SERVICE" and possessing up to 12 years as industry standard DC9/MD-80 captains, who having been integrated "JUNIOR" to "TWA F/E'S" who had accumulated, in some instances only "4 YEARS LENGTH OF SERVICE" at TWA .........
..... those former OZA captains in 1990 were FLUSHED from their captain's seats......

....then the true subject of my post which concerned the fate of an angry former OZA captain and was intended to be of benefit to a current fellow pilot, who seems to be following the same dangerous profile; might have been better appreciated.

Bob Ritchie

[ 02-09-2004, 12:38: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]
 
Posted by TW1 (Member # 479) on :
 
Hawkman,
I realize you were not even on the property during the OZ/TWA aquisition, but wasn't ALPA "merger policy" DOH adjusted for time in service in 1986? You can call it what You want, but when one's own union sells them out by changing the rules in the middle of the game because the larger group threatens to quit... to get ALPA to change the policy, they did. Furlough time counted as time in service for the TWA guys, not for the OZ guys and TWA stayed in ALPA!
Some DOH, most of those guys had more time on the street than they ever did working! I call it union sellout. Sound familiar?

[ 02-10-2004, 07:42: Message edited by: TW1 ]
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
TW1,

The ALPA merger policy in 1986 did not give credit for furlough time. That was a real problem for TWA pilots with early DOH but up to 12 years of furlough time.

Failure to abide by the ALPA policy concerning furlough time completely changed the nature of a DOH integration. Of course, contrary to popular opinion... DOH wasn't ALPA policy in 1986 anyway.

Bob Ritchie
 
Posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy (Member # 130) on :
 
Bob H "got his" and "revenge is sweet". That sums up his position.
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by love to fly:
What was I thinking, you deserve my seat. I was not a member of management or the union committee, so what they did to you is all my fault. I see the light now. I did this to you. I ruined your life. I will get the word out today! DOH for... I now understand that TWA was in a great position when AA bought it, a thriving airline with great career expectations.

Sir, that was'nt the point. The point was, not whether you were a union/management official officially crafting the un-integration, but what were you doing while the wholesale slaughter was occuring? Were you at APA meetings yelling "Staple! Staple! They don't deserve s**t!" ? Or were you just a silent, unconcerned junior pilot thinking "I'm glad they're screwing them and not me!" ?

And as far as a 'thriving airline with great career expectations', that certainly does'nt describe AA. AA has now lost over $7.2 BILLION since 2000, which is more than DOUBLE what TWA ever lost in it's 76-year HISTORY.
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Bob,

Why is it that several of you OZ types are always desparately trying to draw some sort of misrepresented parallels between the two mergers? What is the purpose of doing that?

You did that in your message to Chrispy. Your statement made it sound as though ALL OZ captains lost their seat due to some inequity in the merger. Something that we all know not to be true.

But that isn't the first time. What I've noticed is that these little misperceptions are always buried somewhere in a message where someone is claiming that they are trying to help us in some way, or to wish us good fortune, or an early return. Then, when confronted with the truth (www.twapaf.com) a whole lot of smoke and mirrors come out. A trend that continues to this day, as evidenced by this message string.

So, why is it that several outspoken individuals, including yourself, are constantly trying to forward misperceptions and half-truths regarding the OZ DATE-OF-HIRE merger agreement? What is the purpose in doing that? And ultimately, do you somehow feel like you're actually helping the TWA pilots when you do that?

Or, perhaps you are trying to help the American Pilots? Which is it?

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy (Member # 130) on :
 
Hawk: see my post re BobH
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Don,

I did. And I agree. Another post 100 percent dead-on accurate.

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy:
Bob H "got his"

Stupid question but I was just wondering what "I got" that you consider unreasonable or unfair after 30 years OZ DOH seniority/14 years simulated AA seniority.

Bob H


OZ- 1974-1986 (DC9 CA 12th year = ~1 year/CA)

TW- 1986-2001 (MD80/FO to MD80/CA TW/STL in my 22nd year = ~3 years/CA (5 as CA was possible)).

AA- 2001-present (MD80 CA 27th-30th year = ~3 years/CA)

6 years to go.

[ 02-09-2004, 15:19: Message edited by: Bob H ]
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
Post Captain
Member # 2039

posted 02-09-2004 13:08
----------------------------------------
Bob,

Why is it that several of you OZ types are always desparately trying to draw some sort of misrepresented parallels between the two mergers? What is the purpose of doing that?

You did that in your message to Chrispy. Your statement made it sound as though ALL OZ captains lost their seat due to some inequity in the merger. Something that we all know not to be true.

Posted by Hawkman

####################################


Gary,

You made it a red/green issue. Not me. I stopped raising the subject a long time ago.



Best Wishes,

Bob Ritchie

[ 02-11-2004, 07:03: Message edited by: smilinjack ]
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
I guess the AA haters have been too busy to respond to a question?

I'll try again [Wink]

To Gary Hawk & Don Foldy.. Ed Price and the couple of others who are so quick to judge, please feel free to jump in!!

Where's the meat?? What did I unfairly/unreasonably get??

Bob H

==============

quote:
Originally posted by Bob H:
quote:
Originally posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy:
Bob H "got his"

Stupid question but I was just wondering what "I got" that you consider unreasonable or unfair after 30 years OZ DOH seniority/14 years simulated AA seniority.

Bob H


OZ- 1974-1986 (DC9 CA 12th year = ~1 year/CA)

TW- 1986-2001 (MD80/FO to MD80/CA TW/STL in my 22nd year = ~3 years/CA (5 as CA was possible)).

AA- 2001-present (MD80 CA 27th-30th year = ~3 years/CA)

6 years to go.


 
Posted by Skyking (Member # 120) on :
 
Why does every thread turn into a TWA/OZ merger argument?

As to Bob H's question about what he got?

Well... what he got was a dream career compared to those TWA guys that he feels "unfairly/unreasonably" took advantage of him.

Wake up and look around at the over 1000 TWA pilots whose careers have been destroyed by this merger!

Ward Miles

edited for spelling

[ 02-12-2004, 08:39: Message edited by: Skyking ]
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Skyking:
Why does every thread turn into a TWA/OZ merger argument?

As to Bob H's question about what he got?

Well... what he got was a dream career compared to those TWA guys that he feels "unfairly/unreasonably" took advantage of him.

Wake up and look around at the over 1000 TWA pilots who's careers have been destroyed by this merger!

Ward Miles

Ward-

You have me confused?? Yea, I know that's not so hard to do!

1. If you go to the top and start down, you'll find Gary Hawk was the first person to bring up the OZ nonsense AGAIN!! (hit Ctrl F and type in OZ, enter and you'll go to the first entry).

---

2. You wrote above; ""Well... what he (Bob H) got was a dream career compared to those TWA guys that he feels "unfairly/unreasonably" took advantage of him.""

My reply- I am the first person to acknowledge I AM the luckiest man on earth. Look back and you'll find this is NOT the first time I've made that same statement.

You'll have to explain how I claimed TWA guys "unfairly/unreasonably" (your words) took advantage of me and I ended up with the "dream career" compared to them (pre 1986 TW hires).!!

You suggest above that I am not aware of the 1,000 TWA pilot's whose careers have been destroyed.. May I suggest you are WAAAAY off base. ANY time you want to sit down and discuss face to face the EXACT numbers of pilots who have lost, what they have lost and what they MAY have left, just let me know.. I will strongly suggest you will come away looking like a complete fool!

Bob H

Let me add one more thing.

I think I'm at least somewhat involved with the efforts to help STL/TW pilots including following most of the happenings within APA/AA.

YOU CAN TAKE THIS TO THE BANK..
quote:
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE AA PILOT I'VE EVER MET OR TALKED TO WHO ISN'T FULLY AWARE OF THE FURLOUGHED PILOTS AT AA AND THAT FULLY INCLUDES THE ONE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SEVEN FORMER TWA PILOTS WITH TWENTY FIVE MORE TO BE FURLOUGHED IN 21 MORE DAYS.


[ 02-10-2004, 19:48: Message edited by: Bob H ]
 
Posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy (Member # 130) on :
 
and most I"VE met have NO REGRETS that I am on the street, and furthermore, most I've met will not be happy until YOU are at least a right-seater or on the street yourself, BobH.
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy:
and most I"VE met have NO REGRETS that I am on the street, and furthermore, most I've met will not be happy until YOU are at least a right-seater or on the street yourself, BobH.

I guess Don Foldy has the right to post his accusations to this MB CLAIMING I unfairly "got mine" (whatever that may be after 30 years seniority) but he apparently can't even come up with anything that I supposedly got/received so unfairly.

Here are a couple of tidbits for the SJ lurkers.

* Over the past few years, I received many many phone calls at my home from MANY TW pilots asking for information, projections and analytical opinions. A few of those calls even came from Don Foldy. In each phone conversation, I shared whatever time and information I may have had.

In spite of the small number of angry frustrated individuals you have become accustomed to reading on this public MB.. The vast majority of TW pilots are hard working and dedicated to making AA a better place and BELIEVE just the opposite of what Mr. Foldy unfortunately expresses above.

Contrary to Don's wish above.. My WISH (and that of MOST ALL AA pilots) and HOPE is that AA management and employees are able to turn this company around and Don Foldy and ALL pilots/employees will have the option to return to this airline far sooner than many predict.

------

* There are approximately 4,000 AA pilots who contribute, primarily on a monthly basis, to the "APA Furlough Pilot Loan Fund".

Nearly $One and a quarter **MILLION** dollars has SO FAR been provided to those pilots who have unfortunately been furloughed. A GREAT deal of this money HAS BEEN provided to former TWA pilots. Of the ~4,000 fund contributors, less than 3% are former TW pilots. In other words, several THOUSAND of those SNB's Native American Pilots ARE AND HAVE BEEN contributing to this very worthwhile fund and helping MANY former TW pilots through difficult financial times.

Bob H

Unfortunately, you will now likely hear some other hateful venom against the APA pilot's efforts noted above.
 
Posted by C185FLTFLYR (Member # 1309) on :
 
Bob H:

I am going to say publicly that I for one do not believe that you are an all out self serving SOB!

But I really have a hard time comprehending anytime you really defend the APA or American Airlines Pilots. How much do most of those pilots give monthly on an individual basis? I have heard it's an average of about 10 Bucks. There are many former AA pilots on furlough also, hence the large contributor list. I do believe that it is fairly important to mention that Jeff Darnall has been handling contributions to TWA pilots for a considerable amount of time that is not repayable. Many TWA pilots contributed to this fund up until the day they were furloughed! Many still do.

I would bet that most AA pilots think it's a pretty cheap price to pay for the job security that they ended up with via Supplement CC. I mean, do they have about 1000 of their own pilots still employed that would not be if it were not for the blatant stealing and scabbing of our jobs. Who are the CoPilots on our 757's? We have only about 50% of the Captains required to fly the airplanes that we brought to the party. Not to mention the F/O's required.

Frankly, I would never ask for a dime from the APA. It is on the same line as asking for money from the MAFIA!!! Do you really enjoy contibuting to the MOB? The interest is almost as HIGH! It's actually higher, I have paid for it with my JOB!!!

Cary
 
Posted by Christopher (Member # 2607) on :
 
Long time lurker, first time poster.
I understand the frustration. You need to look outside your circle of friends if you think everbody thinks AA/APA shafted the TWA pilots.

ASA CRJ pilot
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
Cary-

First let me say I am sorry that you and so many others are now furloughed. I have close friends not only here but also at Usair and UAL. My good friend went to Usair when he was furloughed in the '86 OZ/TW merger. He's now just hoping to keep a job and realizes his career is headed closer and closer to an RJ, that is IF Usair even makes it. If he had stuck it out with OZ/TW, he'd be just junior to me. Another friend left OZ/TW and went to AA. He's now ~2,000 numbers JUNIOR to me and realizes he'll never make CA before he retires in 4 years. If he'd have stuck it out with OZ/TW he'd have been in the left seat of the 767 a while ago. This profession has no real security, it always has been this way and always will be.

We can blame our misfortunes on 9/11, poor management, APA, ALPA, AA it doesn't really matter. What we have is what we've got.. PERIOD!! Right now (numbers approx) 35% of Usair's pilots are furloughed.. 19% of UA's pilots are furloughed.. 18% of AA's pilot's are furloughed.. 14% of NWA's pilots are furloughed.. 13% of DAL's and CAL's pilots are furloughed. In the early 70's, 30% of the pilots from the major carriers were furloughed.

In every merger, one group of pilots has detested what the other group did. I know Republic pilots who hate what NWA did to them. I know PAA pilots who hate what DAL did to them. I know Usair pilots who hate what LPP's and Piedmont did to them. The list goes on and on and on.. No doubt from your side of the fence, they all got a great deal compared to you. I have OZ friends who still absolutely hate TWA and the original TW pilots 17 years after the TW/OZ integration. For me, life is too short. Personally, I have been lucky as hell to have made it 30 years in this profession. Others look at their careers in a far different way.

If you and other TW pilots feel the need to blame EVERY AA pilot for where you are, then that's the choice in life you make. There were/are great OZ and TW pilots and there were some who were just simply unhappy miserable individuals. IT DIDN'T TAKE A MERGER TO MAKE THEM THIS WAY.. Go back through the archives and look at what guys like Arthur, Hawk, Case, Brady etc. etc. had to say about TWA LONG BEFORE AA CAME INTO THE PICTURE!!If you don't believe me, I have their MANY MANY quotes.

Before AA, I can remember NUMEROUS times cleaning the cabin up on short turns. Frequently a FA would jump in to help. Those that helped were always friendly and did so with a smile. Others sat in the seat bitching about TWA this and that.. I often wondered how two individuals doing the exact same job for the exact same amount of money could look at their chosen profession and employer in such opposite ways. Pilots are no different.

You can be disgusted all you want with me and what I try to represent. For years, myself and others did nothing but put the effort forward to help our company and our profession be better. Many still try.

IMO, MANY of you have become so focused on the anger and the blame for where you are that you have lost sight of the difference between what IS good and what is not and who is trying to help and who is not.

Your comments above regarding the APA furlough fund are a perfect example.. There are MANY MANY former TW pilots who are furloughed who have been provided financial help from the fund set up by the APA.. Do you consider those fellow TW pilots any less than you because they took the help offered by the APA and AA pilots?

Less than six months ago (excluding the AA pilots hired after the 4/10/2001 TW acquisition), 100% of the AA furloughed pilots were former TW pilots. YET... You can't accept that thousands of REAL AA pilots were giving to the furlough fund unless it can be rationalized that they do so because of the screwing they did to you and other TW pilots or it's only a lousy $10 a month (by the way do you know how many months it would take to collect give of take a $million and a half at $10/month?).

I long ago accepted the FACT that many of you are unable to separate "information" from "emotional rhetoric". Quite frankly I don't care. There are a whole bunch of real AA pilots that I detest which can be evidenced on C&R exchanges. There are a few TW pilots who belong in the same boat with them. The **MAJORITY** of the AA pilots and the TW pilots are kind, responsible PEOPLE who sincerely hope nothing but the best for you and all of our furloughed employees. My sympathy goes out to the few individuals like Foldy and Hawk who are completely unable to see beyond the anger.

I'm off for a week of R&R so you (and others) can now have the last words.

Bob H
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Bob,

Another missive that follows your typical pattern. Some guys just have the gift of bs. The only difference is that you didn't include your twisted and maligned figures about how this merger was as bad as what you guys got.

Bob, the sympathatic affable routine doesn't work anymore. Anger? No. Disapointment? Yes!

Disapointed that, in my opinion, a former TWA pilot would actively and shamefully work AGAINST his fellow TWA pilots in our pursuit of justice. Bob, I don't want your sympathy, or your prayers.

I just want you to stop working AGAINST the TWA pilots.

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by HAWKMAN:
Bob,

Another missive that follows your typical pattern. Some guys just have the gift of bs. The only difference is that you didn't include your twisted and maligned figures about how this merger was as bad as what you guys got.

Bob, the sympathatic affable routine doesn't work anymore. Anger? No. Disapointment? Yes!

Disapointed that, in my opinion, a former TWA pilot would actively and shamefully work AGAINST his fellow TWA pilots in our pursuit of justice. Bob, I don't want your sympathy, or your prayers.

I just want you to stop working AGAINST the TWA pilots.

HAWKMAN

Gary-

For those unaware, let's cut to the chase here.. You, Arthur, Hollander, Case and a very small number of others have been whining about my "missives" (read efforts) LONG before AA came along. Actually you and I and the other more notable TW radicals have been battling for what we believe is right and best many years BEFORE AA. Your accusations mean no more today then they did 6 years ago. For you and your small group, myself and many others have always been supposedly against YOU!! Would you like to see copies of the emails I received from none other than Bob Pastore THANKING me for helping the TW pilots and further comments as to the accuracy of the work I DID DO FOR THE TWA PILOTS?

----

Since YOU continue to inaccurately compare the 1986 TW/OZ pilot integration.. Why don't you answer the VERY SIMPLE questions below.. Yea I know, WHO CARES!! Just more rambling.. WHERE'S THE MEAT GARY?? Come on, show everyone reading this nonsense that you know what you're talking about and Bob H is FOS!

1. After the 1986/87 TW/OZ pilot integration.. If a tragedy like 9/11 had happened or a global financial meltdown of this industry had happened (read similar to the past 3 years).. AND TWA would have furloughed a similar (to AA today) ~19% of the combined TW/OZ seniority list.. What percentage of the OZ pilots would have remained employed out of the ~4,400 original TW/OZ pilots?

2. Presuming the furlough noted in 1. What percentage of the former OZ DC9 Captains would have ALSO been furloughed with 100% of the FO's?

3. Presuming 1. above, upon recall, what options would those former OZ DC9 Captains have had as far as returning to the left seat of the DC9?

4. 10 years AFTER the TW/OZ merger and pilot integration.. What percentage of the former OZ aircraft were STILL in the TWA fleet?

5. Considering 95% of the former OZ acft were still in the TW fleet in 4. above. What percentage of the former OZ DC9/MD80 Captains were STILL and had been flushed to the right seat 3-4 years after the TW/OZ integration?

--

For those of you wondering what this is all about? Gary Hawk, Don Foldy and most all of the others expressing their disdain for the former OZ pilots.. WEREN'T EVEN HIRED BY TWA UNTIL WELL AFTER the 1986 TW/OZ merger. YET... They talk and write as though they know everything about it.. The truth is they weren't here, don't know and are COMPLETELY unwilling to learn..

The questions above are very simple to answer by those whom were here.. The questions above will NOT be answered by Gary Hawk or Don Foldy because if they did answer the questions.. The rest of you would be "wondering what the hell"?

The **RATIO** integration of OZ pilots into the original TW seniority list was almost identical as the **RATIO** integration of TW pilots into the original AA seniority list ONLY 15 years later. The legal counsel for the AA/APA pilots in 2001 was the same individual as the OZ/ALPA pilots had in 1986.. See any coincidence there?

What makes the AA/TW integration so much WORSE than what has EVER previously happened is the tragedy of 9/11 and the tremendous downfall of this industry, not just AA but nearly every Major airline in our country.

The above comments and analogy are only applicable to the TW pilots. IMO, the TW FA's were treated FAR WORSE than ANY merger/integration ever experienced in this industry by two large airlines.

Bob H
 
Posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy (Member # 130) on :
 
nope....I wasn't even THERE....
 
Posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy (Member # 130) on :
 
...but I USED to be there up to July 2003...

...I also wasn't even there...in **fact**, not even BORN during:
Hitler
Khan
WWI/WWII


and a whole host of other ugly events.
 
Posted by T-34 (Member # 1021) on :
 
Bob H & Bob R

I was there and you both got DOH,DOH,DOH-no staple! I'm glad that TWA stood by its pledge to count furlough time in "Time of Service for Pay and longivity" It certainly was a major reason that hundreds of us returned to TWA after two furloughs in 12 years. You both wanted our time thrown out and our DOH adjusted to become junior to yours. SAD! Tom Girtman

[ 03-28-2004, 06:12: Message edited by: T-34 ]
 
Posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy (Member # 130) on :
 
Reread an earlier post on this thread:

MD80Capt
Junior Poster
Member # 1717

posted 02-02-2004 23:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a quick question......I have not posted here before, but I notice a certain constant through all the different postings, both here and on the other site, and that is, Bob H. is always defending AA and the APA, it seems any time there is a chance to rationalize Supp CC he is right there doing just that.

Am I wrong in this observation???

Chris


----------
doesn't sound to **ME** like this guy is forming an observation based on just a mere **FEW** postings by **Don Foldy** and one or two other named, **angry** people that I see professed with monotonous regularity in the recent missive. Gee BobH, too bad I'm not in politics...I'd be **thanking** you for the name-recognition.

Which way is the wind blowing today?? Why, **YOUR** way, of course!!
 
Posted by Jeff Harris (Member # 128) on :
 
Tom Girtman,

What is sad is that the 1986 TWA Mec joined with Carl Icahn and ""IMPOSED"" a non negotiated integration on the OZ pilots. Does everyone hear that! The major reason I and many other OZ pilots have major heartburn over the episode is that the rules were not followed. Alpa rules.
Some of the more narrow minded and naive people on this board continue to harp on the fact that the integration was DOH. Sure it was, that is not the point. The point is that the TWA Mec determined the methodology that best suited them and ""IMPOSED"" the integration on the OZ pilots.
I dont want to fight the War Of 1986 again, but wild inaccurate statements are not helpful.
Jeff Harris
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Bob,

Once again, a typical missive from you. The theme of your questions and statements is obvious. You are still desparately trying to draw misperceptions and misguided parallels about how this merger was the same as what you guys got. Well, it's not.

Let's draw some other comparisons. Yes, I wasn't here in 1986. I was hired in 1989. Anyone with a seniority list can figure that out.

When I got hired on, TWA was hirng for attrition. Shortly thereafter came the Gulf War and a recession. Actually, what followed was one of the worst times in the history of the airlines.

Here's a few questions to you;

After the TWA/OZ merger. . .and throughout the Gulf War and recession, was ONE OZ CAPTAIN ever furloughed? (This is a yes or no question.)

During the merger, were any OZ CAPTAINS merged onto the list below TWA NEW-HIRES? Bob, no time-served bs here. I don't want to hear your twisted logic percentage bs about F/Es. I'm talking about guys who were just hired on. . .better yet. . .guys who didn't even work a day on the line because they hadn't even finished NEW-HIRE training?

The 86 or so OZ first officers who were furloughed. . .what percentage of the total OZ pilot group did they make?

What was the longest duration of furlough for the above OZ first officers who were furloughed?

As far as I know, AA is the ONLY legacy carrier that has 2001 hires still on the line. Why is that?

Bob, you really need to stop with your misguided comparisons and twisted logic. From our viewpoint, you guys got one of the BEST mergers in the history of the airlines. Unlike us. . .you got DATE OF HIRE. But like you said, some guys you know will ALWAYS hate the red guys.

So, why is it that you feel the need to make it seem as though these two mergers were the same? What is your motive? And please, don't even try to tell us that you're not doing this. Your misguided perceptions and twisted comparisions are a very common theme in most all of your missives.

Back to motive. In some way, do you feel that presenting these misperceptions are helping the TWA pilots? Do you not realize that the APA and the SNBs use your misguided perceptions and twisted logic as justification for what they did to us?

Bob, what ever the motive, in my opinion your misperceptions and relentless pursuit to draw misguided parallels between these two mergers have done nothing but to shamefully hurt the TWA pilots.

HAWKMAN

[ 02-12-2004, 10:40: Message edited by: HAWKMAN ]
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Jeff,

You are missing the point entirely. Doesn't matter how you got there. Whether or not ALPA followed it's rules or that the merger was "imposed." The end result is that you were given the respect that you deserved. . .you were given DATE OF HIRE. Period.

HAWKMAN

[ 02-12-2004, 10:37: Message edited by: HAWKMAN ]
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
T-34
Post Captain
Member # 1021

posted 02-12-2004 06:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob H & Bob R

I was there and you both got DOH,DOH,DOH-no staple! I'm glad that TWA stood by its pledge to count furlough time in "Time of Service for Pay and longivity" It certainly was a major reason that hundreds of us returned to TWA after two furloughs in 12 years. You both wanted our time throw out and our DOH adjusted to become junior to yours. SAD! Tom Girtman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 75 | From: Buckingham, Pa. | IP: Logged |

Tom,

Once again; I did not write ALPA merger policy or the Allegheny/Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions. Both were standards by which seniority issues had been historically resolved: neither of which gave credit for furlough time or used DOH as the exclusive method of integration.

I have tried to not frame these discussions within a personal context. Rather I see behavior of 1986 and 2001 as nothing more than a sad demonstration of human nature: the law of the jungle, the strong over the weak and the failure of institutions to provide a neutral arena; within which our disputes could be arbitrated.

Had the roles been reversed; I can assure you that I would have felt exactly as you do. It is reasonable to imagine that you would have felt as I do.

Wishing you personally the very best.

Bob Ritchie

[ 02-12-2004, 11:48: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]
 
Posted by dave carr (Member # 783) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob H:
[QB] [QUOTE]

The **RATIO** integration of OZ pilots into the original TW seniority list was almost identical as the **RATIO** integration of TW pilots into the original AA seniority list ONLY 15 years later. The legal counsel for the AA/APA pilots in 2001 was the same individual as the OZ/ALPA pilots had in 1986.. See any coincidence there?


Hi Bob

I swore that I would never again get involved in this OZ/TWA situation. I guess I'm a person of very little self discipline. Please don't take my post as being argumentative. You know that I enjoy a good discussion.

I don't understand your use of the term **RATIO** as it relates to the AA merger with TWA. Because of your seniority in 1986 the TWA/OZ merger was not very advantageous. I can see why you wanted indefinite seat protection, no credit for furlough time, and unlimited access to all equipment. Unfortunately no merger has been a win/win for all sides. History will teach us that mergers are generally win/lose, but the big guys don't always win everything.

Let me give you one isolated case. In 1984, after 20 years as F/E and F/O I was finally able to hold the junior slot as a MD80 Captain in STL. Along comes the merge with OZ and by Bob Ritchies figures 120 Ozark Captains go on the seniority list ahead of me, a 21 year TWA Captain. That was around 20% of your seniority list. For the next 15 years I watched them exercise their DOH holding equipment, domiciles, flights, vacations, and days off senior to me.

Yes, you did bring airplanes and routes to the table and I got very well acquainted with the -10,-30,-40 fleet and places like Moline, Des Moines, and Waterloo. Your 120 Captains got acquainted with SFO, SAN, LAX, and ultimately Cairo, and Honolulu. One of the OZ folks even flew the final 747 flight after I was displaced from the 747 in 1997. I really could stretch the truth and claim that I was the one that was "crammed" down. Humor!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess that leads me to my question concerning **Ratio**. Did any TWA pilot go on the AA seniority list ahead of a 21 year AA Captain? If not, then can you really compare the merge of the AA/TWA group with what happened to you in 1986? If an OZ Captain had 30 years, he went ahead of a TWA Captain with 29 years, 11 months, and 29 days. Nobody got stapled. To tell you the truth, I have never heard one of those 120 ex OZ Captains complain about DOH or the methodology of the 1986 merge other than being equipment restricted for a period of time. They did complained about our beloved Uncle Carl cutting their pay.

I must say that I don't understand the attacks leveled at you. If I read your postings correctly you seem to be making an honest effort to educate yourself and the ex TWA pilots as to the ramifications of the AA buyout and how to work with the new reality that you face. I would think that this effort would be appreciated. I don't know if you're always right, but you certainly give your educated perspective.

Anyway, I wish you and all the ex TWA family the very best.

Dave Carr
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
. After the 1986/87 TW/OZ pilot integration.. If a tragedy like 9/11 had happened or a global financial meltdown of this industry had happened (read similar to the past 3 years).. AND TWA would have furloughed a similar (to AA today) ~19% of the combined TW/OZ seniority list.. What percentage of the OZ pilots would have remained employed out of the ~4,400 original TW/OZ pilots?


****the above is is a quote cut from a long posting by Bob Herbst earlier in this thread
I am posting it here for a relative response.


__________________________________________________


Bob Herbst,


Actually something very close to what you suggest did happen after the merger of TWA/OZA. In fact the TWA shrinkage almost exactly matches the 19% AA furlough/reduction to which you refer. When you get back from your R&R: I suggest that you put your staticical analysis to work. You will be surprised.

Let me give it in simple,layman and personal terms.......

.......By May of 1996 the active combined TWA seniority list had shrunk from nearly 3,600 pilots in 1986 to around 2,900.

During that 10 year period I had moved up the combined list by over 1,500 numbers and had regained my captain's seat. Yet....I had a little less than 1,400 TWA pilots junior to me.

Now here is the shocker. Were it not for the 1,500 TWA pilots senior to me who had retired.... hundreds of them prior to age 60,.....I would have been furloughed in 1996 rather than regaining a captains seat!! Without retirements the shrinkage would have caught up with me. The 1,500 retirements represented more than 50% of the remaining pilot group in 1996. 50%!!!

The only thing that kept me: with 24 years of seniority, still working in 1996, was the massive retirements of a very old TWA pilot group. In fact, I would have been furloughed by more than 100 numbers. That furlough would have gone back to 1969 hires; both Red and Green. Pilots with 27 years of seniority would have been furloughed! The post 1986 TWA pilots(including OZA guys) recieved salvation; in the form of massive retirements: not as the result of an equitable seniority integration; as some would have you believe.

So you see.....we cannot take a snapshot in time and then compare what happens later. Without the shrinkage of TWA; the OZA pilots would not have suffered to badly. Without 911 and the lousy economy the TWA pilots would not be suffering so terribly now.

There are more parallels than some wish to acknowledge. But,the "what ifs" don't really matter. It is only the "what happened" that really counts. One can never reconcile the two. It just makes for interesting discussions on a cold wintery day.

Hurry back to work everybody,

Bob Ritchie

[ 02-12-2004, 11:59: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Bob R,

To start, thank you for the nice comments. I am honored that a fellow airman thought so highly of me. However, I was almost left speechless with the rest of your message. What!? Drawing a comparison of my statement about respect and God? That is just complete hog-wash and you know that. So, I'm not going to justify your comparison with address.

What I will address is my disapointment. Yes, I am disapointed that you have fallen into the same maligned effort that apparently consumes Bob H. And to what end? Helping the TWA pilots?

Stop to think about it for a second. Do you think that offering misconceptions and misguided parallels is actually helping in some way?

I clearly see it. The SNB who told me that we STAPLED the OZ guys, and mentioned Bob's name as the source clearly saw it. Why can't you?

Whatever. There is no talking sense to your group. There is no end in sight to Bob H's apparent efforts to hurt and work AGAINST the TWA pilots. What's done is done and will be remembered.

And it's just very unfortunate. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the OZ guys were some of the best pilots I have ever flown with or roomed with. From what I've been told regarding TWA before I knew her, the OZ guys helped change her into the TWA that I will remember forever.

It's just sad to see this last effort from a few of the outspoken OZ guys. An effort that only serves to place cloud over the once great Ozark mystique. And, an effort that is shamefully working AGAINST the TWA pilots.

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
Gary,

I am happy to leave it there. Ozark and the reputation of it's pilots are secure in the footnotes of history. The skill of it's pilots were second to none. It will always be known as a friendly, down home, little, airline,that served mid-America with safety,determination and pride for 36 years.

TWA will always be remembered as one of,if not THE greatest airline the world has ever know. It's pilots pioneered aviation history and established records around the world. The history is forever enshrined; it is one of glory and prestige.

Too bad these two proud but very different airlines no longer prowl the skies of America and the World. Those were the days!

Your opinion of others is for you to decide. Personal impressions of historical developments aside.....I believe that we share in common; much more than we disagree upon.

Hang in there,

bob r.


bob r.
 
Posted by dave carr (Member # 783) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob Ritchie:
[QB] Post Captain
Member # 2039


Please don't try to convince anyone that the TWA pilots would have imposed DOH on OZA had the OZA pilots been 10 years DOH senior to the TWA pilots. No one on earth will believe you and thus your arguement becomes meaningless. You somehow fail to understand that by implying..... that the TWA imposition of DOH was somehow an act of "respect" you sacrifice all creditability on the subject at hand.

Hello Bob

Respect is an interesting concept. I'm not so sure that DOH wasn't an act of "respect". Consider the following scenario and correct me if I'm wrong.

Did TWA in 1985 have to take any pilots with the purchase of Ozark? If memory serves TWA pilots were flying less than 70 hours per month. Uncle Carl owned the airline and could pretty much do whatever he wanted. As TWA pilots we could have increased our flying hours into the middle 70s per month and easily operated all the Ozark airplanes. It would have been a raise for us with nobody senior to us coming onto the seniority list. Uncle Carl would not have had to worry about an unhappy and pesky group of Ozark pilots being brought into the mix. In addition, when expansion or retirements created a need for new pilots, new hires could have filled the bill very nicely and economically.

At the time this thought never occured to me and probably not to any other TWA pilots, but would this have been possible? I don't know, but when he arbitrarily furloughed Ozark pilots it sure got your attention and brought an agreement in a hurry. Unfortunately you guys were on the ropes for no fault of your own and we could have pretty much done to you whatever we wanted. In looking at the end result, I'm wondering if maybe you didn't receive much respect, certainly more than you've received from AA.

Dave Carr
 
Posted by smilinjack (Member # 7) on :
 
When you make a post don't put lines like....
########

or
+++++

or anything like that......it makes you have to scroll sideways, and I have to go in and delete them out.

Bob R .....I had to delete your whole post from above to make this thread fit right.....sorry.
jack
 
Posted by AAflyingbrian67 (Member # 2419) on :
 
Can someone tell me the seniority of the most junior TWA pilot still flying? Or the most senior laid off TWA pilot. I also read that more X-TWA pilots were still being laid off. I am sorry but I thought the lay offs were over for pilots.

Thanks for the info.

Brian
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
Brian, the most senior TWA pilot furloughee is a September 1988 hire. The most junior TWA pilot still working is an Aug.'88 hire( a displaced Capt).

Comparably, the most senior AA pilot furloughee is a Jan.'01 hire (an F/O). There is another scheduled pilot furlough March 2nd,2004 and I believe that number was reduced from 200 to 160.

Corrections, anyone?
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dave carr:
Unfortunately no merger has been a win/win for all sides. History will teach us that mergers are generally win/lose, but the big guys don't always win everything.

I guess that leads me to my question concerning **Ratio**. Did any TWA pilot go on the AA seniority list ahead of a 21 year AA Captain? If not, then can you really compare the merge of the AA/TWA group with what happened to you in 1986?

Capt.Carr,

I believe in this case, we can safely say that AA got EVERYTHING---our seats, our routes, our airplanes, our slots, our most profitable assets and our JOBS. Anyone that does'nt see a complete and total 100% win/win 'victory' for AA and it's most junior, inexperienced employees is nuts.

Your last paragraph was absolutely, positively 110% accurate and should make everyone think. You can't possibly compare the wholesale integration of TWA and OZ employees (which did'nt cause massive job losses) with the TWA/AA debacle which will most certainly go down in history as the worst, most inequitable, most one-sided, most destructive and career-ending 'un'integration of two labor groups EVER.

No comparison whatsoever.
 
Posted by AAflyingbrian67 (Member # 2419) on :
 
B757-200. thank you for the info.
 
Posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy (Member # 130) on :
 
J Harris etal:
so lemme git this straight...

doh wasn't good enough, and OZ wanted more?? [Confused]

[ 02-13-2004, 05:32: Message edited by: Don Capt Skypig Foldy ]
 
Posted by T-34 (Member # 1021) on :
 
posted 02-12-2004 17:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you make a post don't put lines like....
########

or
+++++

or anything like that......it makes you have to scroll sideways, and I have to go in and delete them out.

Bob R .....I had to delete your whole post from above to make this thread fit right.....sorry.
jack

Jack,

Thanks for this information, I thought my computer was having display problems.
 
Posted by TW1 (Member # 479) on :
 
All,
I am an OZ guy and I think this AA/TWA buyout has been much more devastating than the OZ/TWA buyout. 20,000 out of 22,000 people on the street speaks for itself. People can blame it on 911, the economy or whatever but it still come's down to sheer annihilation for the former TWA group.
Dave, I believe you are correct when You said Carl could have done whatever he wanted. I remember TWA taking the four MD80's and flying them, putting 86 guys on the street. I also remember being told at a pilot meeting that TWA would take ten more airplanes a month till they were all gone if we didn't sign. We did then sign, with the gun to our head.
We had it very good at OZ, I remember those pay cuts and the low 62hr. months at TWA, but we had a job. I think these were very dark days for both former OZ and TWA pilots. We felt let down by our nat'l union ALPA, the same union TWA had. On that note at least APA protected their people, as I realize they had no legal responsibility to protect us. ALPA had that duty and once again failed. We were in trouble when we gave up the scope.

Bill

[ 02-13-2004, 17:18: Message edited by: TW1 ]
 
Posted by Jeff Harris (Member # 128) on :
 
Don,
OZ pilots wanted the rules of the ALPA merger policy followed. We wanted a seat at the table, not an imposed agreement. Your obsession with DOH is tiring. Look at the complete history.

Jeff Harris
 
Posted by CBXer (Member # 2067) on :
 
Everyone,

What is getting old, is this rehash of the TWA/OZ merger comparison. It's done, finished, over, history............

What is at hand, is the AA/TWA merger. Unfortunatley we got what we deserved, due in part to our lack of unity. It is evident by reading these posts.

ALPA let us down. AMR and the American unions took advantage of the situation. And our own pilot group, couldn't unify!

Why, because some thought this merger would be good for all, some not, and others just sat on the sidelines.

What we got, was the worst integration in aviation history...........period. In no way does it compare to TWA/OZ, and shouldn't be!

While this is a simplistic view of what has happened to us, it is time to give it a rest, and let's move onto some more productive dialogue.

Cheers,

Kevin Horner
 
Posted by C185FLTFLYR (Member # 1309) on :
 
Bob H:

I hope you are enjoying your R and R. However didn't you just come back to work. I can imagine how 2 weeks back at work at AMR would cause the need for a VACATION!!! ( JUST KIDDING)

First, lets get something straight here. (And I am not going to waste any energy repasting quotes.) You stated that "I" feel indifferent towards "EVERY" AA pilot. That could not be further from the truth. I used the word "most"! You don't have to try and prove to me that "most" don't feel OK with what happened.

As far as TWA pilots accepting money from APA. Everybody's situation is different an I am not the type of person who would hold anything against anybody for doing what's right for them in that situation. I am almost offended that you would think that about me. And I do not associatte bad behavior by associated with the APA. I just stated what I thought about them as a union. Look at them? Is it not really true?

And do not accuse me of being angry. Do you not read any of my other posts. I believe your statement could be no further from the truth. I am a believer of playing the cards you are dealt with in life. So far I am holding a pretty good hand. I believe in your case it is just the opposite. You try to find "anger", and "frustration" in everybody's posts but yours!

However, given our situation and the way ALPA handled it, I have no feelings towards any other pilot group in this industry. They stood by and watched. ALPA wanted our lower pay scales removed from the collective bucket, and now they have watched the "economy", and "bad management", and "union arrogance", erode the industry's CBA's! What goes around comes around. I know you love that statement. It makes you feel justice has been done towards what happened to your case. What's come around for me again is flying single engine IFR at night after 3 years ago checking out as a Captain for a Major Airline. But I am HAPPY, and not ANGRY. I have a life outside of my work and do not miss going to work away from home anymore. It's sad when I talk to Captains who have less than 2 years to go and can't wait till retirement.

I do expect a professional response when you return.

Hope you enjoyed your R and R!!!!!!

Cary
 
Posted by buzze (Member # 66) on :
 
This thread started out Remember the year before the AA buy. What happened is this better than that will never be resolved. 20 year Afro-Americans are claiming they have been discriminated against for 300 years. Jews still hate Arabs and Arabs hate Jews.
I remember that as a very good year. A year I was flying the 767 out in LA (Hollywood as we called it). I was out there because certain people made damn sure no more former Ozark people would fly 767's out of STL regardless of seniority. That said it gave me an opportunity to fly out of what I saw as a better domicile. I enjoyed it even with the commute more than I enjoyed St. Louis. I met wonderful people including Randy Kramer, who I have the greatest respect for. I remember flying with the most senior Flight Attendants with TWA. They were wonderful. I remember the check airmen. They were all wonderful gentlemen. All the people I worked with LA were terrific. I remember hours and hours of work in the ALPA MEC office working on problems for the pilots of TWA. I remember Kona, San Juan, and the other places we flew. I remember the very orderly structured training we received at TWA.
Then I remember Jan 7, 2001 when a CNN crew met us at the airplane on arrival. They wanted the crew to comment on what we felt about the news AMR was buying TWA. I avoided them, and I remember thinking I've heard rumors before and I hope to hell it was wrong.
Then I remember Jan 9, 2001 the MEC held a meeting at the Stouffer to trumpet the great news. While everyone around shouted approval, I sat quietly thinking damn it isn't going to be good, but we've been there before.
Up to 9-11 things were pretty much exactly as I expected, maybe better. But since 9-11 things have been worse. I don't think 9-11 affected the airlines as much as it allowed them to change direction. After 9-11 so much of our industry has left the majors and gone to commuters that they became regionals. Most of us we were a dealt significant blow to our career. Many junior pilots will over time do well, but they will be scarred by the difficulties of being furloughed. Several junior pilots will have their airline career terminated by age. Almost all the former TWA employees have been dumped for good from this company.
Yep the year before regardless of imperfections was a good year. May god bless the former employees of TWA.

Arthur J. Buzz Erickson
 
Posted by extwacaptain (Member # 381) on :
 
Thank you, Captain Erickson,

As bad as it was, as we look back, it was a great year. You, Sir, every time you were in terminal 3, made it a happier place. That will not be forgotten.

Thank you for all you have contributed to our airline.

Respectfully,


Randy Kramer
 
Posted by Retav8r (Member # 251) on :
 
Randy, etal,
The year before the merger was definitely great although for me it meant the end of an almost thirty-five year career. I'll always have great memories of flying out of LAX and, more importantly, of the people who worked there. I still get together with other retired pilots for lunch once a month as well as lunch on a semi-frequent basis with ground employees whom I've also kept in contact with. Maybe you can join us sometime? Aside from the great SJU layovers, one memory that will always remain is the image of you standing in the back of the cabin, talking to the pax and this after the main door had been closed! I really did want to take you with us to JFK and would have if you hadn't run so fast to the front of the a/c! [Big Grin]
As Hope would say, thanks for the memories...

Don aka "Robert Redford" (an inside joke that Randy understands!)
 
Posted by Life_Platinum (Member # 630) on :
 
"Robert Redford"!!!! Randy introduced me to him, and had me sit in the jump seat on a TWA 767-200 while he took a picture of "Robert Redford" at the controls with me just behind him during boarding at LAX early one morning. I'll have to look for that picture. That does bring back may memories.
 
Posted by Retav8r (Member # 251) on :
 
Hey Doc,
If the captain who posed for the photo had silver hair and not nearly as good looking as Redford, then it was probably me! I remember posing for quite a few photos!
Don...an ex Brooklyn boy!
 
Posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy (Member # 130) on :
 
Jeff H:

I'm not obsessed with 'doh' as much as the APA was obsessed with me not even getting CLOSE to DOH.

Enjoy the reprieve until they finish pulling out ALL the sham rugs.
 
Posted by mioguido (Member # 123) on :
 
(thank you Randy) my LAX trips on TWA were by far the best! the year before the merger was also around the time of Compton's Vision 2000. i remember all the hoopla surrounding the idea which had many thinking there was a positive plan for the future of TWA. now we find it was all smoke and mirrors ....just a distraction from their real plans... [Eek!]
 
Posted by L1011Ret (Member # 1792) on :
 
With all the revisits to TWA - OZA, maybe we need to rename this thread, "anger in search of a target."
 
Posted by GDesloge (Member # 76) on :
 
Captain Kramer-

Do you know what George (the A&P at LAX who worked the gates) is doing now? A great guy with a lot of years at TWA. Thank you, and I hope you're doing well.

Gaines Desloge (aka Mel Gibson)
 
Posted by extwacaptain (Member # 381) on :
 
Gaines~
Please check your private messages.
 
Posted by GDesloge (Member # 76) on :
 
Randy-
I have; thank you, and please check yours-
Gaines
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by CBXer:
ALPA let us down. AMR and the American unions took advantage of the situation. And our own pilot group, couldn't unify!

What we got, was the worst integration in aviation history...........period. In no way does it compare to TWA/OZ, and shouldn't be!

Not only did ALPA let us down, they conivingly conspired with AA/APA to serve up our seniority on a platter for APA to devour, while completely selling us out on all fronts.

As far as unity, when you have pilots in your own group out to help themselves and totally sell out the rest, how can you even approach that?
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by GDesloge:
Gaines Desloge (aka Mel Gibson)

Gaines! If you're Mel Gibson, them I'm Tom Cruise!

[Big Grin]
 
Posted by Irish (Member # 722) on :
 
Jack,

This infant, Mike C, needs to find another playpen. Help him out the door, please!

Irish
 
Posted by PITbeast (Member # 108) on :
 
Well, Jack, MikeC is enough to bring me out of retirement. Could you please lose him?
 
Posted by smilinjack (Member # 7) on :
 
MikeC is history.....I would bet that his parents are real proud of him....
Jack
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
If anyone knows the wherabouts of furloughed TW pilot Michael Clary, could you please send me a way to reach him.

Thanks-

Bob H

numbersbob@hotmail.com
 
Posted by Pablo Lewin (Member # 712) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bob H:
If anyone knows the wherabouts of furloughed TW pilot Michael Clary, could you please send me a way to reach him.

Thanks-

Bob H

numbersbob@hotmail.com

Folks

I need this gentleman's contact info as well.

Thank you kindly

Pablo Lewin
 
Posted by PURDUE60 (Member # 2622) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pablo Lewin:
quote:
Originally posted by Bob H:
If anyone knows the wherabouts of furloughed TW pilot Michael Clary, could you please send me a way to reach him.

Thanks-

Bob H

numbersbob@hotmail.com

Folks

I need this gentleman's contact info as well.

Thank you kindly

Pablo Lewin


 
Posted by PURDUE60 (Member # 2622) on :
 
SEARCHING FOR MIKE C. - LOOK BELOW THE STAPLE LINE UNDER "FURLOUGHED." HE'S ONE OF THE MANY THAT IS NOT QUITE AS GRATEFUL AS YOU WOULD LIKE FOR BEING UNEMPLOYED!!
 
Posted by Pablo Lewin (Member # 712) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PURDUE60:
SEARCHING FOR MIKE C. - LOOK BELOW THE STAPLE LINE UNDER "FURLOUGHED." HE'S ONE OF THE MANY THAT IS NOT QUITE AS GRATEFUL AS YOU WOULD LIKE FOR BEING UNEMPLOYED!!

Clary

I don't expect anybody to be grateful for anything I did or did not do, However I do expect an individual no to libel me by posting invective that is simply not true.

What I did was to make the hard and unpopular choice of trying to save as many TWA pilots as possible under the horribly depressed leverage circumstances we found ourselves in which were impossibly aggravated by the dastardly attacks of 911.

While some TWA pilots were childishly ignoring all those events and going to silly parties in Washington DC, I and others on the MEC were doing the HARD and UNPOPULAR work of preparing for negotiations that HAD a chance of yielding REAL results.

If some of the mindless radicals that took over the last MEC had ANY gumption at all we would be in a better place with HUNDREDS more former TWA Captains working now with the possibility of domiciles on the coasts and most importantly a TRI-PARTITE SIGNED DOCUMENT that would have withstood the challenges that we will now surely get from APA radicals challenging what little we got.

Whoever the individual was that posted such libel about me and Herbst I AM sure he was a supporter of the last TWA MEC, you know the one that totally ignored the realities of what we faced and the one that totally ignored EVERY expert advise that told us we had to sign, that there was no legal basis to sue and that we would be "DANCING NAKED IN THE STREETS" if we didn't.

Well THE RADICALS won, we didn't sign and here we are dancing naked...

Like I said I don't mind people not understanding what we were up against and why I knew (and KNOW) that we had to sign ASAP, HOWEVER when someone crosses the line into the realm of libel and threats (private emails that I have been getting) then I must act.

And when I find the culprit of those libelous comments on this board and private threats I will PROSECUTE IT TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.

Laugh now while you can.

Captain Pablo Lewin
American Airlines

Last Chairman of TWA Council 4

PS I KNOW FOR A FACT that 3 years after the fact the majority of TWA pilots knowing what we know today would have signed in a heartbeat...3 years too late though.

[ 03-28-2004, 15:16: Message edited by: Pablo Lewin ]
 
Posted by C185FLTFLYR (Member # 1309) on :
 
Paco:

"While some TWA pilots were childishly ignoring all those events and going to silly parties in Washington DC, I and others on the MEC were doing the HARD and UNPOPULAR work of preparing for negotiations that HAD a chance of yielding REAL results."

Do you mind giving the dates and names of those in attendance?

Cary

[ 03-28-2004, 17:12: Message edited by: C185FLTFLYR ]
 
Posted by Gumby (Member # 743) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pablo Lewin:
quote:
Originally posted by PURDUE60:
SEARCHING FOR MIKE C. - LOOK BELOW THE STAPLE LINE UNDER "FURLOUGHED." HE'S ONE OF THE MANY THAT IS NOT QUITE AS GRATEFUL AS YOU WOULD LIKE FOR BEING UNEMPLOYED!!

Clary

................

And when I find the culprit of those libelous comments on this board and private threats I will PROSECUTE IT TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.

Laugh now while you can.

Captain Pablo Lewin
American Airlines

Last Chairman of TWA Council 4

PS I KNOW FOR A FACT that 3 years after the fact the majority of TWA pilots knowing what we know today would have signed in a heartbeat...3 years too late though.

Just to let you know, I must be in the minority based on what you seem to know. I wouldn't sign now or ever. My number is currently 12302. What would it have been if we had signed? I believe around 12302. As for protected captains, apparently you haven't noticed lately, the number of times the "line in the sand" has washed away (the no-furlough point). By the way, was that a threat towards Clary? It sure seemed like it to me, so maybe you should be concerned with AA policy on harassment as posted by Captain Morey, today.

Enjoy the LA sun but don't spend too much time out in it because it can be harmful in the long term or so I've read.

John Gombar
TWA #883
 
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
 
Gumby,

You're not in the minority. Your's was the best posting here.

Smilin Jack, would you kindly commend John on his excellent posting to your board.

I'm 110% positive if we did sign and agree to Supp CC, that there would still be 75% of our pilots on the street (high price labor reduction coupled with divide and conquer-score one for Con Carty at the expense of the APA).

And if we did sign, every SNB response to our struggle for a fair and equitable seniority list would be "BUT YOU SIGNED IT AND AGREED TO IT, YOU TOOL".

If I recall correctly, when the OZ pilots went before a judge to plead their case of only getting DOH, the judge agreed with them , but said..."but you signed the damn thing."

Look how quickly the furlough protection for the Youth SNBs was sold down the river by the APA so that the 23% paycut didn't turn into a 33% paycut. That sure would have hurt all those 777 Captain's retirements.

If you think the APA is not staying up late at night, to think of ways to further dissolve Supp CC and increase the redtail cleansing while avoiding a representation greivance, then you must be a stand-up comic.
 
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
 
While some TWA pilots were childishly ignoring all those events and going to silly parties in Washington DC, I and others on the MEC were doing the HARD and UNPOPULAR work of preparing for negotiations that HAD a chance of yielding REAL results.


----------------------------------------------------
What real results, 75% of the TWA pilot families are unemployed, lost their homes, marriages, etc.

The parties are looking better already.

AA merged with AirCal and Trans Carrib - DOH. TWA/OZ used DOH.
 
Posted by zing (Member # 1024) on :
 
>>What real results, 75% of the TWA pilot families are unemployed, lost their homes, marriages, etc.<<

What are you smoking? Or are you doing regular scientific surveys of the former TWA pilots?

My unscientific sampling of those furloughed pilots I am in contact with shows the vast majority have found new employment, although outside the airline industry for most. None that I know of have lost their homes and all that had spouses before are still with their spouses.

I wouldn't be surprised to find some instances of all of the above, but to make a blanket statement like the above is just plain off the wall.

I've known you for eight years now and, in my opinion, your rational side has been progressively losing the battle to hatred and other negative emotions. I previously had a lot of respect for you when you were working for management in JFK and even when we trained together for our downgrades to the MD80.

You have so much positive energy inside of you. I'm sorry you have chosen to release the negative energy in this way.
 
Posted by Pablo Lewin (Member # 712) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gumby:[/qb]
to let you know, I must be in the minority based on what you seem to know. I wouldn't sign now or ever. My number is currently 12302. What would it have been if we had signed? I believe around 12302. As for protected captains, apparently you haven't noticed lately, the number of times the "line in the sand" has washed away (the no-furlough point). By the way, was that a threat towards Clary? It sure seemed like it to me, so maybe you should be concerned with AA policy on harassment as posted by Captain Morey, today.

Enjoy the LA sun but don't spend too much time out in it because it can be harmful in the long term or so I've read.

John Gombar
TWA #883 [/QB]

Gumby

You are the minority, Clary was the name in the profile, I doubt it is Mike Clary but another individual and it wasn't a threat, it is a fact.

I stand by what I said,and everybody knows it (except for you and a couple of diehards on this and the "other" board).

We would have been better off with a tri-partite agreement and no amount of cute simple postings from you will ever change that fact.

Pablo Lewin
 
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
 
Sorry Dave,

I guess when your job/profession is raped and pileaged, it brings the bad side out in people.

What makes matters worse, is the criminal element cheerfully proclaims, just be lucky we saved your job and that you have the priviledge to be furloughed from American.

Realistically, and with no disrespect Dave, the rape of your job will result in you retiring from this job on furlough. You will never set foot in an American cockpit again, ever. Someone with 2 years of seniority has secured your seat based in NY/STL.

What they did was wrong, on a profesional and personal basis.

Hard to just get over it, like has been suggested to me by the NAAtives.

Sounds like you're doing great. I can't say the same.

Take care..best health to you,

c.d.
 
Posted by zing (Member # 1024) on :
 
>>Sounds like you're doing great. I can't say the same.<<

As I say to my teenage daughter nearly every day when she has some problem or other that she thinks is going to destroy her world: how you're doing can be 99% attitude and 1% external circumstances if you just try hard enough.

Of course, I knew a year and a half ago that barring a major shake-up in the industry, I would not be in an American cockpit again. Even if I never fly for any airline -and I still have two real possibilities before I'm done- I'll make due and enjoy whatever aspect of my life I'm experiencing at the moment.

What's done is done. Do you think that even if an appellate judge remands the litigation back for trial and even if a trail judge awards arbitration, that it would make any real difference in the length of the furloughs? The most that could happen would be to have some damage settlement that would line the pockets of a few.

Sorry. There I go again, giving you more reasons to keep pouring out negativity.
 
Posted by Gumby (Member # 743) on :
 
Pablo,

Why don't we start a poll of the "furloughed" TWA pilots as to whether they, knowing what they now know, would have voted for APA offer?

I'll start: NO.

Remember, only the furloughed.

Gumby

P.S. Saw your post on C&R concerning wing tip lights. Do you really worry about hard landings getting a light? [Wink]
 
Posted by Jeff I. (Member # 2334) on :
 
<>
[/QB][/QUOTE]

I realize there are plenty of friviolous lawsuits. The ones on the docket and possibly in the workings that attempt to redress legitimate grievances are not what I would characterize as frivilous. Far from it.

Flawed as they might seem at times, thank God we do have a court system that will hear legitimate grievances and, if warranted, seek to redress and compensate. TWA employees and shareholders have the right to voice their complaints and, in my opinion, most or all of the principals behind the AA takeover of TWA should have their days in court under oath. It is long overdue.

Jeff I.
 
Posted by L1011Ret (Member # 1792) on :
 
Amen Jeff, they need their day in court.
 
Posted by Pablo Lewin (Member # 712) on :
 
Gumby

The light policy along with a chart on wing and pitch angles that will make the lights contact the runway belongs to AA...not me, I was merely reporting.

As far as the polls, I don't have to, I already get dozens of unsolicited mails from furloughed individuals who could have been working as Captains att AA and now agree that we should have negotiated instead of hanging our hats on the "Bond" Amendment (remember?, not James but Kit...).

You and I were and continued to be duped by a bunch of incompetent clueless radicals who screwed up the works for all of us and now are trying to deflect culpability by blaming others....how novel....

Pablo

quote:
Originally posted by Gumby:
Pablo,

Why don't we start a poll of the "furloughed" TWA pilots as to whether they, knowing what they now know, would have voted for APA offer?

I'll start: NO.

Remember, only the furloughed.

Gumby

P.S. Saw your post on C&R concerning wing tip lights. Do you really worry about hard landings getting a light? [Wink]



[ 03-30-2004, 13:09: Message edited by: Pablo Lewin ]
 
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
 
Pablo,


What are you referring to when you say we should have negotiated rather than hang our hat on the Amendment.

As I remember, there was even a facilitator brought into the talks, but the APA didn't budge on their postion.

In an APA memo to it's pilots (prior to single carrier status), it states that we (the APA) has brought in a facilitator to help the TWA pilots agree to our terms, but remember in the end they don't have to agree to it, because we have the authority to (unliaterally) impose the agreement.

Shortly thereafter, Ed White made his famous quote,
Why are we screwing you guys, because we can".

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, what negotiations were you referring to.
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by chrispy:
Pablo,

As I remember, there was even a facilitator brought into the talks, but the APA didn't budge on their postion.

In an APA memo to it's pilots (prior to single carrier status), it states that we (the APA) has brought in a facilitator to help the TWA pilots agree to our terms, but remember in the end they don't have to agree to it, because we have the authority to (unliaterally) impose the agreement.

Shortly thereafter, Ed White made his famous quote,
Why are we screwing you guys, because we can".

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, what negotiations were you referring to.

Chris-

Your inaccurate conclusions and suggested time relationship to the actual negotiations shows you either know very little or whomever is providing you information knows very little.

A review of the APA contract will clearly conclude the APA had/has 100% control of their seniority list and that fully included(s) control of any AA purchase of another carrier and where that acquired carriers pilots were placed/integrated. This "control" was in full affect with the RENO staple which WAS fully upheld through the litigation process. (If you choose, you can liken APA's control to the "wrap a round agreement" provided the TWA pilots in Jan of 1986.)

The above can be verified by reading the APA CBA and further clarified by reading the "TWALLC Transition Agreement" signed by AA & APA in July 2001.

Your "accusations" that the APA never changed their integration ratios, the starting point for integration or/and the number of TW pilots to be integrated before/after June 10, 2001 is ABSOLUTELY wrong!!

More than once I was asked to provide integration analysis BASED on different integration values during the merger NEGOTIATIONS.. Perhaps you could tell me what part you contributed to the process or provide ANY documentation to support YOUR claims?

Rather than attempt to take this as some PERSONAL attack at you, perhaps you could consider it as a simple request to, again, "back up" your accusations. If what you say is true, it should be a simple process to provide quotes from documents, meetings etc..

Chris (and others), There is more than enough FACTUAL circumstances that CAN BE verified. Your choice to discredit yourselves and the ongoing "process" by making so many false and personal claims is doing nothing for the very cause you want pursued.

For the record...

I am in FULL AGREEMENT the TWA employees should have been entitled to arbitration or in the absence of, a litigation process (ESPECIALLY the TWA FA's). Litigation is in process for both pilots & FA's. Note: The TWA/AA IAM/TWU ramp/maintenance did go through arbitration.

Specific to the comments of FO Dusse and a very small number of other individual pilots.. It is my opinion they cause considerable disservice to those whom are attempting to seek improvements through the litigation process.

That being.. IMO, All credibility and support is lost when these individuals incessantly do nothing more than make false unsubstantiated claims and continuously make personal attacks of EVERY FELLOW airline employee on the simple basis that they were either collecting an AA pay check or are not willing to step in line behind what are, a minority of TWA pilots who have made huge huge mistakes and are now unwilling to accept responsibility for the long-term harm that HAS occurred to so many of the TWA pilots that COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED.

Bob H

[ 03-30-2004, 18:56: Message edited by: Bob H ]
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gumby:
Why don't we start a poll of the "furloughed" TWA pilots as to whether they, knowing what they now know, would have voted for APA offer?

I'll start: NO.

I second the motion from brother Gumby.

My Vote: HELL @#*&!#*# NO!!! Not now, not EVER.
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pablo Lewin:
And when I find the culprit of those libelous comments on this board and private threats I will PROSECUTE IT TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.

PS I KNOW FOR A FACT that 3 years after the fact the majority of TWA pilots knowing what we know today would have signed in a heartbeat...3 years too late though.

Pablo, what "libelous comments" are you refering to?

Knowing what I now know, Pablo, I'd still tell AA/APA to go #@$*&@# themselves. No way I'd ever sign, no matter what ALPA promised me.
 
Posted by Pablo Lewin (Member # 712) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by chrispy:
Pablo,


What are you referring to when you say we should have negotiated rather than hang our hat on the Amendment.

Chris

Just like Ed and whomever made himself pass for Mike Clary on this board and who then proceeded to libel me and threaten me and another individual privately....(not to mention the TWAPRAVDA.COM libel where they assert that I am a Psycho.......:-).You won't care what I say here, what evidence I provide you with,and the facts that you see happening around you, there will never be ANY convincing some of you of how badly we screwed up as a group of pilots and how childishly we conducted ourselves when faced with the worst integration in the history of 2 major airlines (Perhaps Captain Chamberlain can give us here some of the psychological reasons for all of OUR behaviors in an unbiased and dispassionate fashion without the fear of reprisal from the crowd at TWAPRAVDA.COM??) :-).

1) From the beginning Bud Bensel setup the AWRF to sue ALPA...before we even started negotiations with the APA, when ALPA got a wind of it their support dwindled down to the minimum necessary to avert a lawsuit ...strike one

2)When Mike Day took over from Bensel he came to us stating that Ed White was interested in 500 to 700 staples and Day said he could get us that...Ted Case,Jim Arthur and Hollander among others said no way to that..it was below their bottom line....Matt Comlish a 2000 hire had everybody convinced that Congress and Bush were going to give us date of hire......Strike two..

3)We completely blew off our merger counsel Roland Wilder with over 30 years of experience in mergers and several cases in front of the Supreme court..even after the dastardly attacks of 911 when the game changed to one of survival for all the airlines in the world we decided that a lawsuit without ANY discernible LEGAL basis was the best way to go thus we decided to leave a tri-partite agreement and a BUNCH of other stuff behind (actually after 911 being a party of an agreement would have been the most important element of all)..we decided not to attend negotiating meetings against the direct advise of Merger Counsel, etc,etc,etc....STRIKE THREE ...OUT.


I am not even going go to what we left behind because frankly some of you guys are so blinded with rage and emotions you simply are not ready to comprehend what we left behind...you have been duped so thoroughly by the Hollander MEC that no amount of facts and evidence will suffice until some of you guys reach your 80's.

You don't want me to go on...suffice it to say that we could have had SEVERAL hundred more former TWA Captains flying for American now, bases on the Coasts with a IMPENETRABLE St.Louis base, B-737 flying and I dare say a marginally better seniority number had we been able to recognize the deal from the VERY beginning.

We didn't and we are and will always be where we are...the APA's responsibility was to screw us, OUR RESPONSIBILITY WAS TO DEFEND OURSELVES RESPONSIBLY WHEN FACED BY OVERWHELMING ODDS...the APA succeeded and we failed miserably.

We are at least 25% guilty of our demise and no emoting is ever going to change that fact.

Now I have been holding back until now :-), I suggest that if you really want me to "spill the beans" we take this back to the private side of the TWA side....there's no real need for the public at large to see our dirty linen.

Pablo Lewin
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Pablo,

Do you feel better now? Sometimes when you get to unload. . .things just seem a bit less stressful. Hopefully, that is the case for you.

Now, I'm really taking a chance here answering this post. Specifically because of all the threats going on around here of turning in everyone.

Hopefully, we can keep these messages on target for the issues at hand and keep them from the level of reaching personal insults. Let's give it a try, shall we?

Ok, onto your missive. My answer to your claims is. . . SO WHAT !?

Pablo, I'm not going to get into a debate regarding who was at what meeting with Roland, or what was or was not left on the table. You can stand around and debate that all day long. That is all meaningless now.

The ONLY thing that has any meaning RIGHT NOW is our attempt to litigate this matter. Speaking of which, have you read the posted legal documents that outline our case on www.twapaf.com ?

Being caught up in history and having an apparent compulsion to prove you were right about signing does nothing positive to AFFECT OUR REALITY NOW. Yes, the reality that is partially outlined in the above referenced documents. All you're apparently doing is tantamount to efforts that seem to work AGAINST our litigation.

OK, so you may not think the litigation will succeed. I respect that opinion. But why don't you wait until after it's all said and done before you do things that will seem to HARM and work AGAINST us?

Pablo, let's face our REALITY NOW. . .SuppCC will not change anything for the better. The APA is not going to change anything for the better. Even AAL or ALPA will not change anything for the better.

The ONLY chance we have to change anything, right here, right now is the litigation. At least give those willing to fight this out a chance without doing harm.

As to whether you are right or wrong about signing. . . I don't buy off on your mail claims about all these furloughed guys agreeing with you. My opinion is still as I have stated before.

History will prove you right or wrong. . .we just haven't got there yet. Until we have won or lost our ONLY chance at litigation, my jury is still out.

In the mean time, why don't you at least let us fight this battle. We are willing. And, it is the ONLY battle that we have left to fight.

HAWKMAN

[ 03-31-2004, 03:48: Message edited by: HAWKMAN ]
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pablo Lewin:
Just like Ed and whomever made himself pass for Mike Clary on this board and who then proceeded to libel me and threaten me and another individual privately....(not to mention the TWAPRAVDA.COM libel where they assert that I am a Psycho.......:-).

1) From the beginning Bud Bensel setup the AWRF to sue ALPA...before we even started negotiations with the APA, when ALPA got a wind of it their support dwindled down to the minimum necessary to avert a lawsuit ...strike one

2)When Mike Day took over from Bensel he came to us stating that Ed White was interested in 500 to 700 staples and Day said he could get us that...Ted Case,Jim Arthur and Hollander among others said no way to that..it was below their bottom line....Matt Comlish a 2000 hire had everybody convinced that Congress and Bush were going to give us date of hire......Strike two..

3)We completely blew off our merger counsel Roland Wilder with over 30 years of experience in mergers and several cases in front of the Supreme court

Pablo, what does Mike Clary have to do with my previous post? I was rebutting one of your points, very simply. Also, I used to see Clary post on TWAPilots.com, but not in awhile.

About Comlish, I think you'll find he was '98 hire, not '00.

About your numbered points:

(1) occured because Bensel was aware ALPA was preparing to sell us out and cut a deal with AA/APA, therefore he had the foresight to get the legal ball rolling since ALPA would'nt represent us. Purely a defensive move.

(2) Mike Day said Ed White would only push for 500-700 staples? When did that happen? Never heard about that deal, and since you were on the MEC, why did'nt you tell us about it? I am 100% positive APA had no intention of changing the staple of 60% (1300 pilots) after AA and ALPA agreed to tacitly approve (or not object to) their compilation of the new seniority list.

(3) We blew off our merger counsel because he was working for ALPA, not US, Pablo. Once your own legal team starts working against you, it's time to find a new legal team. Wilder did'nt have our best interests at heart.
 
Posted by Pablo Lewin (Member # 712) on :
 
Hawkman

First you say and I quote

"Do you feel better now? Sometimes when you get to unload. . .things just seem a bit less stressful. Hopefully, that is the case for you."


Then you say and I quote:

"Hopefully, we can keep these messages on target for the issues at hand and keep them from the level of reaching personal insults. Let's give it a try, shall we?"


Pablo says: from the get go you have already failed miserably at keeping it from becoming personal when you continue to propagate the libel that I am excitable and that I somehow "rant" when the opposite is exactly the case and that's exactly why some of you treat me as your number one enemy. You know that I won't let this go, not now not in 20 years..

Now onto the substance of your message

You said and I quote:

"Pablo, I'm not going to get into a debate regarding who was at what meeting with Roland, or what was or was not left on the table. You can stand around and debate that all day long. That is all meaningless now."

Pablo says:

There's no debate, I was there throughout the whole process, you were not ...we screwed up by not signing and the furlough today of more former TWA Captains it's a continuous reminder of how badly we did.

You said and I quote:

"The ONLY thing that has any meaning RIGHT NOW is our attempt to litigate this matter. Speaking of which, have you read the posted legal documents that outline our case on www.twapaf.com ?"

Pablo says:

I have read it and the legal basis being used is What?...oh yes it's based on discovery in other words paraphrasing "If we ask long enough we'll find that we were screwed by someone, because obviously it was not our negligence, it's never our fault because we are always right thus we are sure to find someone to blame this on"

You said and I quote:

"Being caught up in history and having an apparent compulsion to prove you were right about signing does nothing positive to AFFECT OUR REALITY NOW. Yes, the reality that is partially outlined in the above referenced documents. All you're apparently doing is tantamount to efforts that seem to work AGAINST our litigation.

OK, so you may not think the litigation will succeed. I respect that opinion. But why don't you wait until after it's all said and done before you do things that will seem to HARM and work AGAINST us?"

Pablo says:

Gary there's NOTHING I have done that will screw up our chances for litigation because everything that I have posted thus far is on the record and all 3 parties know about it, besides I have yet to see the legal basis under which we are suing.(plenty of moral basis though).

Roland Wilder couldn't find any, I surmise Boise decided that he couldn't find any...I read the brief and I couldn't find any...where's the beef?.

I tell you where the beef is, the past MEC knows full well they screwed up and this my friend is their exit strategy:

1)Put on a good show

2)Blame somebody other than themselves when they lose

3)Stress the fact that somebody must be impeding the fight and that's why we are losing...hmmm who could it be...oh wait! that Pablo guy won't let this go! it must be him then...let's get him!


You said and I quote:

"In the mean time, why don't you at least let us fight this battle. We are willing. And, it is the ONLY battle that we have left to fight.

HAWKMAN "

Pablo says:

Where do you have some evidence of the above mentioned piece of libel? I thought you were going to keep it out of the realm of the personal?.

Tell me how can a single individual whose only actions up until now were to expose a level of ineptitude on the part of the last TWA MEC and the almost criminal negligence of some of its leaders be responsible for "not letting you fight the battle?".

Do me a favor whether you win or you lose for once in your political lives take responsibility for your actions and stop blaming everybody else for the actions and results your friends brought on all the former TWA pilots.


Pablo Lewin
 
Posted by Pablo Lewin (Member # 712) on :
 
"about Comlish, I think you'll find he was '98 hire, not '00."

I'll split it with you OK, he was a 29-Apr-1999 hire

Pablo

PS Your other points are so devoid of facts I won't bother addressing them anymore, suffice it to say you can go back and read 3 Years worth my postings and find the answers there... of course you can always go to TWAPRAVDA.COM and emote....
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Pablo,

You're response speaks volumes regarding why you have chosen the path that you have. Apparently, "libel," is your new buzz word when you have no real, legitimate response to offer.

Pablo, as I now have new insight into your motives, I will end here with an apology for making any attempt towards communicating and having a reasonable dialogue with you.

HAWKMAN

[ 03-31-2004, 13:35: Message edited by: HAWKMAN ]
 
Posted by Pablo Lewin (Member # 712) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by HAWKMAN:
Pablo,

You're response speaks volumes regarding why you have chosen the path that you have. Apparently, "libel," is your new buzz word when you have no real, legitimate response to offer.

Pablo, as I now have new insight into your motives, I will end here with an apology for making any attempt towards communicating and having a reasonable dialogue with you.

HAWKMAN

Gary Hawk

li·bel (li'b?l)
n.

A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.
The act of presenting such material to the public.

Libel is not a "buzzword" at least not to me,I have been FALSELY accussed on some boards of everything from being "One of the Fab 5" (paraphrased), to consorting with the APA to staple TWA pilots, to being a dirty traitor, to being "excitable" and having major psychological problems and now by you of fighting "against" the lawsuit....?????

I did the best I could as an MEC rep against incredible adverse odds which included an airline near it's third Bankruptcy, the IAM (need I say more?),Carl Icahn and Karabu,the APA and ITS radicals, AA and its management...The attacks of 911 and finally a coward and clueles TWA MEC spearheaded by a bumbling Chairman who in the end was Consorting with the IAM (Sherry Cooper) and the controlling segment of the MEC hell bent on mindless self destruction for the sake of "show business"

Libel is not a buzzword...not to me.

We all screwed up and there's enough blame to go around nobody is exempt,some more than others.

At least I admit my errors and the biggest one I have made was to have have sought and accepted a post in the Union the during the worst times in the History of the TWA pilots...one thing I am proud of though is my conduct during those times, I worked hard, told the truth to anyone that cared to hear it (such as my Council 4 that's why they didn't play along with Hollander and the rest and didn't recall me...). and most importantly I treated and treat the TWA pilot like intelligent adults.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, a concept to your friends Gary but a way of life for me.

Pablo Lewin

[ 03-31-2004, 15:38: Message edited by: Pablo Lewin ]
 
Posted by L1011Ret (Member # 1792) on :
 
I will add a few comments. First, until today I had been unaware of Pablo's position although I am aware there are negative feelings about his worldview. He obviously has a different view on what happened. An interesting point of view at that. You can take snapshots of different events occurring in your life and people will have different interpretations of the meaning of those events and the role those events played in future happenings. As someone who investigates how mentally ill people became that way, a major issue in childhood development is of course the child's interaction with parents and siblings. If you look closely, you find that the parents were viewed by the child as unavailable for nurture, not able to understand and address the child's needs in an appropriate fashion, and in some cases were over controlling, insisted the child be perfect or other forms of failure to respond to the child. Bottom line is that the child was helpless to do anything about its environment, doesn't trust authority figures when they are needed, grows up feeling hopeless about the future and feels powerless to change things in his/her life. I parallel that to the TWA/ALPA/AA/APA/APFA story.
1. My own view is that the TWA pilots were grossly disadvantaged from the beginning. Starting from the beginning with the give up of some scope language, the pilots and F/As were put at the mercy of whatever APA and APFA might dream up. Since there was no language to protect them nor any meaningful process guaranteed, the party with the most horsepower, APA, AA and APFA was bound to have the upper hand. I include APFA because my spouse is a senior furloughed TWA F/A and as they say, I have a stake in that horse race. The statement, "we screwed you because we could" is the same type thinking put forth by child molesters. They got away with it because they could. To me that is the real bottom line. They got away with something they knew was unfair because they had the power to enforce their unfairness. That is it in a nutshell.
2. Given that the TWA pilots and F/As were put into the position of being nearly helpless children, at least vis-à-vis seniority issues, and that they had for all practical purposes little to no voice in what was happening to them (the APFA refused to even speak to IAM representatives), I do not find it unusual that the pilots and F/As find themselves so very angry about what transpired.
3. I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but the outcome seemed preordained or nearly so, given the past behavior of AA/APA/APFA. If I can revert to my childhood analogy, they were abusive parents. You go back to Reno and then to the USAir people possibly coming to AA and how in the case of USAir, a few would be fit in and the rest stapled, the pattern repeats itself. And lest we forget, AA bought the TWA LHR routes with no crews that eventuated in my leaving TWA. This suggests to me that no matter who did what on behalf of the TWA pilots or F/As, only very small improvements in the outcome were possible.
4. I remember exchanging quite a few e-mails with John Rohlfing asking the question, "where is ALPA?" We never came up with an answer for each other. I remember thinking, "that is the only horsepower they (TWA pilots) have." Back to my childhood analogy, if some benevolent parent, read ALPA, does not come along these kids will continue to be abused.
5. Now we are several years down the road. Many pilots continue to remain very angry with the parents (AA and APA) and refuse to have anything to do with them, at least APA. Some have taken another tack and decided to make the best out of a horrible situation by joining APA and representing the TWA pilots best they can. The TWA pilot family is fragmented at this point and stuck in the untenable position of feeling some are stupid because they are not moving on while the other subgroup remains firmly opposed to moving on and hanging onto their rage. From my professional point of view, for health reasons, I believe moving on is the best course. But some will and some will not. It is each individual's decisions to wrestle with their demons on their own timeline.
6. As in the case of all emotional injury, blame has to be assessed. There is enough for everybody. ALPA did not help, blame them. APA is full of hard line a**holes who screwed us, blame them. AA stood by as a sort of co-conspirator, blame them. Some members of the TWA MEC made some judgmental errors, blame them. There is enough blame for everybody to last a lifetime and it probably will.
7. The siblings in the TWA pilot family are expected to fight among themselves as siblings in angry families always do. If you look at family roles, Pablo is a sort of scapegoat for the family anger. Do not feel alone Pablo, there is plenty of displaced anger to go around. Bob and Bud and others in the family who took up different roles are likely targets too.
8. I truly believe that individual TWA pilots could not derail the process that occurred. The process was a large group process at the MEC level with lots of voices being heard. Although pilots like Pablo and others take a different view, and may have thought that a different outcome was possible had different actions been taken, the majority view held sway. Could the outcome have been different depending on what TWAers did? If you listen to APA, the answer is pretty clearly no.
9. Last but not least. As a licensed New York State psychologist, I cannot find much that is helpful to anyone's mental health in ANY manner for all the name calling and subtle threats. Does it change any outcome? Does it help to vent this way? The answer in both cases is clearly no. Rehearsal of anger just makes you angrier.
10. Am I sticking up for Pablo? It looks like Pablo can take of himself. No need. But I really do think a lot of this anger directed at some TWA pilots is really misguided. Some posters could benefit from a little self reflection that would help them own their anger and put it to work in more adaptive ways.
 
Posted by Irish (Member # 722) on :
 
Thank you, Bill. As as party disinterested except for my distress at what has happened to my beloved TWA family, I hope both sides recognize even a little of the sanity you have interjected here. Come on guys! Read, take a deep breath and re-read Bill's post.

Paul
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pablo Lewin:
Your other points are so devoid of facts I won't bother addressing them anymore, suffice it to say you can go back and read 3 Years worth my postings and find the answers there... of course you can always go to TWAPRAVDA.COM and emote....

Pablo, why don't YOU go to TWAPilots.com? I know you might feel as if both barrels are pointed at you, but you could at least defend yourself. It would'nt be sop one-sided; you could voice your perspective.

BTW, I have read your posts, and I don't necessarily agree with them, but I know your side of the story.

Lastly, referring to Pliske as 'Prickse' cracked me up! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Goodyear_26 (Member # 304) on :
 
The heading of this particular MB is TWA, and hopefully will yield information and stories pertinent to the airline which most of us cared for.

Now is has apparently become a forum for disgruntled pilots. Don't get me wrong, I sympathise completely with your situation,but take it to TWA Pilots page and leave this one for those of us who are more interested in the greatness of TWA and reminiscing about the GOOD old times, not Red versus Green and all that crap!
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Frank,

You retired too early. . .we ARE talking about the good old times!


HAWKMAN
 
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
 
Bob,

Rather than attempt to take this as some PERSONAL attack at you, perhaps you could consider it as a simple request to, again, "back up" your accusations. If what you say is true, it should be a simple process to provide quotes from documents, meetings etc

Facilitator invited in - JFK LEC meeting June 2001

Memo posted to APA members saying that in the end they (the TWA pilots) don't have to agree to our integration. Posted HNL Ops-written by LAX Lec chairman-don't remember the date, sorry Bob.

Ed White telling us we're screwing you, because we can- STL APA meeting-sorry Bob again, I didn't write down the date in my diary...but ask around all the pilots that are still on the property-he did say it.

One thing I learned in grad school, there are people that are book smart, then there are people that are street smart. I'm glad you have such a grasp on numbers, but I think you kinda outta touch with what's really going on here. You constantly hammer my credibility-but really-does anyone listen to you, Bob.

It seems you're personal attacks on me are to quell the complaints and greivances I have against our integration and meant to tell everyone, hey the APA saved us. For you, yes Bob, it did. You will retire from an airline, and good on you. All issues aside, I am glad for you. For the other 66% or 75% or whatever calculus third derivative, square root forumula you want to contend, just to make a fight and insight an argument, we've have lost - and in some cases, lost it all.

Irrepairable harm was done to our careers, Capt Herbst. I know you were lucky to avoid the shrapenel...almost everyone else didn't. Need me to provide you a notarized document of that, Bob or will you take my word on it.

Sorry the APA Integration contract doesn't have a clause that I can quote that says we're going to screw you...but I can say that it does say that Supp CC was crafted to fully realize my career expectations. Enjoy retirement Bob, you earned it and I didn't. Neither did the other 1300 or so pilots.


Don't worry my furlough will be short-sorry..I don't have that in writing either.
 
Posted by zing (Member # 1024) on :
 
>>Facilitator invited in - JFK LEC meeting June 2001<<

To what are you refering? There was no facilitator of any kind at the June 7, 2001 JFK Council 2 meeting.
 
Posted by Goodyear_26 (Member # 304) on :
 
Can't some of you guys read?? TWA Pilots board is for all your griping about MEC, APA, ALPA, Red versus Green, ad nauseum! Please leave this particular board for what it was intended for. Am I right Jack?

As for you Hawkman, in the nicest way I would like to say, if you missed the Howard Hughes days, the transition from props to jets, these were the good old days. The airline business was still relatively young, full of characters like Trippe, Maytag, Patterson and more than I can remember on short notice. (At my age I need a lot of notice!!)

I wouldn't state this as being the height of my career with TWA but will never forget one LAX early AM being on the greasy, oily wing of a Connie, fueling and oiling the bird, while the early morning fog and dew made the wing surface like ice, and Hughes walking across the ramp with a small group and taking a 1649 I had just fueled for the morning JFK (then IDL) flight for a jaunt to Toronto.

When I refer to the good old days I guess I mean anecdotes like this. I have so many of them.

But I know it's futile to complain, so tell me what did Pablo say then??!!
 
Posted by Irish (Member # 722) on :
 
Frank,

I also fondly remember walking the wing of a Connie, screwdriver held like a dagger, ready to plunge it into skin to halt a fall off a slippery wing. Boy those were, in retrospect, wonderful days.

Paul
 
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
 
To what are you refering?

Part of union business that day was the mentioning that APA/TWA negotiations would include the use of a facilitator. There was no reason, that our LEC meeting would need a facilitator.
 
Posted by flyguybos (Member # 2757) on :
 
do you homework. TWA had no cash left it is very much a fact. do your homework. The IAM signed away all rights to seniority and itWAS NOT A MERGER AT ALL. DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
 
Posted by L1011Ret (Member # 1792) on :
 
Strange, APFA considered it a merger. Labor groups did not sign away scope provisions. Lastly, TWA had about $153 million at the time of purchase with a $100 million note due in a few days. That note could have been easily rolled over. All that aside, TWA's financial position was less than healthy.
 
Posted by Subsonic Transport (Member # 2139) on :
 
Some time ago a friend of mine gave me several issues of AVIATION WEEK & Space Technology from a while back. While reading this thread I thought I would post here some excerpts from various articles. The following are from the February 5, 2001 issue.

Correspondence: Capt. Pete Brady- Pres. American Independent Cockpit Alliance…

“….The effects of competition and market forces are relatively inconsequential in this protracted state of financial debilitation…financier Carl Icahn intends to sue American to preserve his lucrative profits arrangements with TWA…..lucrative profits?”

“How does one person derive not reasonable but lucrative profits from a situation that is otherwise so bleak for the airline?...right to sell millions of dollars worth of tickets at steep discounts…known as Karabu deal.”

“The airline could make a profit, but the Karabu deal perpetuates the insolvency. Hanging in the balance are 20,000 emplyees who go to work thinking that today might be their last at TWA. And Icahn wants to preserve the arrangement.”
--------------------------------------------------

Judges Ruling…..Robert w. Moorman

“…antitrust division and a possible lawsuit by former Trans World Airlines owner Carl Icahn could delay…acquisition…delay would only slow the inevitable…[Justice Dept] rejected objections by Continental, Northwest and Icahn…”

“…other factors in Americans favor. A pledge by American to preserve at least 17,000 jobs at TWA, and keeping the airline essentially intact….generated widespread support from political leaders and TWA’s unions.”

“Another way of looking at this is that American is saving 17,000 voters from the State of Missouri, said…Merrill Lynch”

“Northwest stated it would pay around $200 million for TWA’s 26% share in Worldspan…while Continental offered up to $400 million for TWA’s slots, gates and facilities at LGA, ORD and DCA airports.”

“…TWA and American were ecstatic about the courts ruling. ‘This is a great win for TWA,’ said President/CEO William E. Compton. ‘This ruling removes a great deal of uncertainty….This winter we ran out of time’…confronted ‘staggering increases in the price of jet fuel.’ Rather than liquidate the airline’s assets, TWA sought a merger or partnership with several U.S. airlines to keep TWA flying, he said. But nearly every rival “recognized that they would benefit from TWA’s demise.”

“…American will walk away if the bankruptcy court allows the continuation of the ticket-related contract between TWA and financier Icahn, sources…indicated…The arrangement has been very lucrative for Icahn, but TWA ‘can’t get a good yield for its other tickets because, in many instances, the airline has to match those low-fare tickets of Icahns, said Mike Boyd.”
“Although Continental and Northwest have proposed buying key assets of TWA and Icahn….offered to lend TWA money….American is the only bidder that has made a formal offer to acquire the carrier.”

“If American succeeds…won’t be first time…carrier moved to STL…early 1980’s American abandoned plans to develop a mini-hub there in the face of TWA’s superior strength.’

“ ‘Pursuing STL as another hub makes a lot of sense, given the situation in Chicago as the No. 2 player’, concluded Merril [Lynch’s] Lineberg. ‘The acquisition of TWA also will bolster American’s network. Especially in the Midwest.’”

--------------------------------------------------
Restructured Economy-Paul Mann

“A ‘Big Three’ also will give labor immense power to disrupt service, McCain warned. ‘If labor disruptions occur at a consolidated United or American, the rest of the system will not be able to absorb the displaced passengers, and the system will grind to a halt.’’

“Yet for TWA, time is of the essence….’Several of our competitors are now suddenly saying, out of an apparent desire to avoid the enhancement of American, that TWA could be maintained as a stand-alone enterprise or its assets parceled out among the various carriers to protect the interest of the creditors….Compton told McCains committee.”

“…Compton testified, when TWA’s latest financial crises struck this winter, ‘we went knocking on doors to find a solution-there is not an airline of any size in America that we did not approach…No one was interested in TWA as a going concern. In my view, most recognized that they would benefit from TWA’s demise and they were willing, at best, to stand back and watch it happen.’”

“Sen. Christopher S. Bond (R-Mo.), whose state is home to TWA, endorsed the American acquisition plan. ‘It will keep TWA flying in the short-term, protect almost all of the 20,000 jobs, maintain the STL hub, maintain the Kansas City overhaul base and maintain a competitive airline presence in STL into the future.’”
 
Posted by mioguido (Member # 123) on :
 
the sad part is that many believed the *prepared statements* issued by TWA and American. all one had to do is look at the person pulling the strings over at American...that person was Carty. need i say anymore? [Mad]

[ 02-28-2005, 23:00: Message edited by: mioguido ]
 
Posted by donuway (Member # 803) on :
 
That's the first I ever saw of an offer for TWA's share of worldspan????

Did TWA "own" other gates at ORD besides 8 and 10, the two that they operated out of, that could have been sold? Did they still have any rights at Midway?

200 + 400 is slightly under what AA gave for the whole airline, if I remember right? Of course what AA actually spent is probably a vague figure.

Don
 
Posted by MrMarky (Member # 635) on :
 
Yeah Don, I vaguely recall Northwest having an interest in the Worldspan share. The issue was that it was a partnership between TWA, NW and DL and nobody could sell their share unless the other two partners agreed. After the TWA Worldspan share ceded to AA I guess both DL and NW decided they would rather buy it than have AA as a partner. This of course must have been AA's strategy all along, as they didn't need it and it brought in the bulk of the cash they laid out to buy TWA to begin with.

As for the TWA gates at ORD, as far as I know, they were leased from NW. I don't know of any assets that TWA had at ORD. They had sold slots there and moved to Midway and then played hell trying to get back into ORD, or at least that's how I remember it. I think TWA had a big hangar at ORD years ago, but don't know what happened to it. Maybe Icahn sold it to AA along with the LHR routes?

I'm not sure they needed any "rights" at Midway. It's not a slot controlled airport so anyone can go in there and start flying as long as they can get gates, to the best of my knowledge.
 
Posted by Kenneth (Member # 259) on :
 
Hi all,

My memory has been bad lately, does anyone remember where TWA operated at ORD (pre-Carl)?

I was sure there was an entire concourse, but I can't remember which one.

Unfortunately I didn't travel much in my youth, I just spent lots of time at Lambert watching the planes take off and land; my aunt would take me up there often, back when I was small enough to barely see over the ledge. Occasionally I got to step on a parked plane and peek in the cockpit; I remember touring a brand new Ozark DC-9 that was rolled out for their anniversary celebration. My first flight to ORD was a TWA 747 in the late 80's (in college), but I just can't remember where we landed!

[Smile] Ken
 
Posted by Kirkpatrick (Member # 652) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth:
Hi all,

My memory has been bad lately, does anyone remember where TWA operated at ORD (pre-Carl)?

I was sure there was an entire concourse, but I can't remember which one.

I seem to remember it being the "G" concourse. We had operations down below and a large "hostess lounge" on the concourse as well.

As the sole survivor of the first class of male FA's TWA hired, I recall being thrown out of the hostess lounge that first summer of '72. I spent my four hours of waiting time at a gate watching airplanes take off and land.

MK
 
Posted by 757man (Member # 545) on :
 
The concourse was G concouurse and we had the whole thing. now the AA feeder is in that concourse. We also had a hangar and complete crew base there in the 70s. it slowly died in the 80s.. it I looking fine today. Flew there last week. Came into "h" On the mainline and got the regional to Lacrosse wisconsin at "G'
 
Posted by upsilon (Member # 78) on :
 
The Ambassador Club was in an imposing site on the second floor up above the head of the G Concourse which is located between T2 and T3.

I recall using a "shortcut" and getting off the car rental bus at T2 (instead of T3 where the TWA counters were located) and going directly to the Club.

Several years ago I attended a meeting at the old Club venue and found it was a for-hire small business meeting facility. I have glanced up there recently when using G on AA, but was not sure for what it was being used.
 
Posted by Irish (Member # 722) on :
 
Yes, indeedy, TWA occupied the "G" concourse, with the exception of gate 1 (Air Canada) and flight ops was located underneath gate 5. I remember, as though it were yesterday, the double row of recliners that stretched from one side of the concourse to the other in the pilot's lounge.

When taxiing a Connie in for parking at gate 2 the engineer had to shut down the number one engine, and motor one prop blade to the 6 o'clock position, to avoid the possibility of the prop striking the low concrete wall protecting the gate area from vehicle traffic.

TWA based Connies and Convair 880's at ORD when I hired on in '65, Jack Robertson was the GMF and Lyle Huntly the F/E manager. When the Connies were retired in '67 they were replaced at ORD by DC-9's.

I was temporarily assigned to MKC for one month F/Eing the Connie, then scheduled for DC-9 F/O school. On the first day of class I was told, with several others, to move to the 707 F/O class starting next door as we had just been awarded JFK Int'l F/O bids. Seventeen years later I got my first captain bid, the MD-80 in STL.

Thanks for stimulating the memories, Ken.

Paul
 
Posted by Dick Nicklas (Member # 934) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Irish:
Yes, indeedy, TWA occupied the "G" concourse, with the exception of gate 1 (Air Canada) and flight ops was located underneath gate 5. I remember, as though it were yesterday, the double row of recliners that stretched from one side of the concourse to the other in the pilot's lounge.

When taxiing a Connie in for parking at gate 2 the engineer had to shut down the number one engine, and motor one prop blade to the 6 o'clock position, to avoid the possibility of the prop striking the low concrete wall protecting the gate area from vehicle traffic.

TWA based Connies and Convair 880's at ORD when I hired on in '65, Jack Robertson was the GMF and Lyle Huntly the F/E manager. When the Connies were retired in '67 they were replaced at ORD by DC-9's.

I was temporarily assigned to MKC for one month F/Eing the Connie, then scheduled for DC-9 F/O school. On the first day of class I was told, with several others, to move to the 707 F/O class starting next door as we had just been awarded JFK Int'l F/O bids. Seventeen years later I got my first captain bid, the MD-80 in STL.

Thanks for stimulating the memories, Ken.

Paul


 
Posted by Dick Nicklas (Member # 934) on :
 
AND WHO WILL EVER FORGET THE HUNDREDS OF "NO,NO"
COMMENTS WRITTEN SO PAINSTAKENLY IN THE TILE GROUT ON THE PILOTS LAV WALL? THEY WERE A LASTING TRIBUTE TO THE BOREDOM OF PRACTICE LAYOVERS AND THE MANY COMMUTERS WHO SPENT TIME THERE. REMEMBER "NO FURLOUGHS", "NO NOT TONIGHT" AND MY FAVORITE "NO NO NANETTE". PLEASE DON'T SAY YOU NEVER BOTHERED TO READ THEM, NO ONE WOULD BELIEVE YOU.
 
Posted by L1011Ret (Member # 1792) on :
 
Irish's and my memories match nearly exactly. I remember Jack and Lyle, the hanger over by the UAL hanger and one obnoxious crew bus driver (shorty?)who loved to piss crew off plus old "smokey" the 880. I lived downtown most of my stay there even though I commuted to SFO and JFK to fly 707 International. Had no need for a car as I could take the bus to the airport. Lived the high life in the near North at that time. Checked out on the L-1011 in the first class and flew it out of ORD for a while. We did simulator at Link in Binghampton, NY. Very fond memories of being based in Chicago.

[ 03-02-2005, 14:44: Message edited by: L1011Ret ]
 
Posted by tomlittle1 (Member # 58) on :
 
Yes
 




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