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Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
I'm new to the board, however Bob Ritchie and Bob H know me quite well on C&R (how ya doin, Bobs?) Some of you might know me from an article I posted on jetcareers.com back in 2003 which generated a little controversy on other TWA boards - however, it was written with the sole purpose of educating our up and coming airline pilots, and definitely not to "rub it in" anoyone's face!

Anyways, got to reading the whole TWA threads since 2001 and I must say I am deeply saddened by the loss most of you went through. I miss the great people - pilots, FAs gate agents etc - that made TWA a great airline.

A little background - I attended Parks College from '92-96, and as I progressed through the ranks of pilot certificates I would often go to Lambert with friends and almost always, gate agents would let us into the cockpit before boarding to meet the pilots. (obviously pre-9/11.) I've got pictures of myself in just about every TWA cockpit, and the crews were always way cool about it. I also flew TWA just about everywhere while at Parks, including Europe - I was a regular customer on 844 (STL-JFK), 840 (JFK-FCO) and 900 (JFK-BCN), you guys are all missed. Once I made it to the commuters, you always seated me in first, no questions asked. We could only be so lucky to have such a culture at AA.

I was based in STL (SLT) for awhile as a result of the MOAB and enjoyed every last minute of it. It really was like flying for a different airline and a refreshing change. (note to AA crews, I still like flying with you too.) Was about to be furloughed in April '05 but got reinstated one day prior, resulting in being the bottom "native" system-wide and danged lucky to be here. It goes without saying that many, many TWA and AA brothers have fallen on their swords to keep me here.

Anyways - your passion for your airline is evident, and is admired by this native. I miss Teeny Weenie, thanks for all the safe flights around the world and the great memories. I sincerely hope those unlucky souls that got axed have moved on to greener pastures, but you will not be forgotten, nor your sacrifice gone unnoticed.

Peace to all,
JP Palusci
LGA/FO/S80/D
 
Posted by ss278 (Member # 244) on :
 
Welcome to the board. Glad you're here.

Just curious, has AA recalled at all, or are you still the "Tail End Charlie?"
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
No recalls whatsoever, however there is pretty good intel that they will recall sometime this year to staff for summer '07. I remain the "native" tail end charlie (the next AA class is all furloughed, and I was the junior guy in my class.) My sen # is 9709 and I am the bottom MD80 pilot in LGA which is the absolute junior base on the junior aircraft, so I'm pretty sure I'm it.

I'll try and keep "youse guys" posted if I hear anything noteworthy.

Regards to all,
JP
 
Posted by Irish (Member # 722) on :
 
JP,

Years, no decades ago, TWA pilots used to bid their monthly flights using pencil and paper in large, loose-leaf books in the pilots' ready room at the airport.

I always got a chuckle when I "read" the "bid" of the most junior F/O. His bid always was a drawing of a pilot sinking under the waves with the caption, "Glub, glub, glub".

I extend my sympathy to you. [Big Grin]

Paul
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
LOL Irish, those were the good old days.

As I said before, I'm darn lucky just to even BE the bottom guy. I was all set to start at Eagle when the reinstatement came the day before furlough.

Re: bidding.... well, I don't even bother, what's the point! It's actually pretty easy, and someday when I'll have to sort through hundreds of lines, I'll remember how good I had it as the bottom guy!

cheers,
jp
 
Posted by extwacaptain (Member # 381) on :
 
A recent comment regarding those who have "fallen on their swords to keep me here" causes me concern. Following are the definitions found for what we all know was a phrase which originated during the old days of combat.

Fall on your sword:
Meaning........Commit suicide or offer your resignation.
Origin.............Originally from the military custom of committing suicide rather than face the dishonour of surrender.

More recently used when someone takes personal responsibility for a group action and resigns.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Idiom: Fall on your sword
Idiom Definition:
Meaning:
If someone falls on their sword, they resign or accept the consequences of some wrongdoing.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since many thousands of TWA employees did not resign and were guilty of NO wrongdoing, they did not "Fall on their sword" to keep you here.

You are here and they are not, only because of one of the most unfair airline integrations in our history.


Randy Kramer
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
JP,

Welcome to this site and thank you for the graciousness you have displayed in your effort to be a healing force.

Although we met only breifly in PHX it was apparent that you were a good and compassionate individual. You have borne up as the "tail end charlie" with humor, courage and true professionalism. The former TWA/OZA captains, with whom you flew in STL, speak of you in glowing terms. You bring honor to American Airlines and our profession.

Your attempt, in other arenas, to be a man of peace and bring clear thinking into the void has been abundantly demonstrated. You are among the few so predisposed. I am always glad to see your postings and impressed by the courage of your conviction.

I love the way you are able to speak the truth: apply wit and wisdom to any subject while addressing those of lesser moral persuasion. Your knowledge of this industry and human nature is second to none.

Life is a journey my friend. You have learned how little influence we have over "fate" and to "accept life on life's terms." A gift to those so possessed.

Keep up the spirit and remain the beacon that you are. God bless you and those that you love.

Bob Ritchie--fellow traveler

[ 03-17-2006, 17:10: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by extwacaptain:
A recent comment regarding those who have "fallen on their swords to keep me here" causes me concern. Following are the definitions found for what we all know was a phrase which originated during the old days of combat.

Fall on your sword:
Meaning........Commit suicide or offer your resignation.
Origin.............Originally from the military custom of committing suicide rather than face the dishonour of surrender.

More recently used when someone takes personal responsibility for a group action and resigns.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Idiom: Fall on your sword
Idiom Definition:
Meaning:
If someone falls on their sword, they resign or accept the consequences of some wrongdoing.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since many thousands of TWA employees did not resign and were guilty of NO wrongdoing, they did not "Fall on their sword" to keep you here.

You are here and they are not, only because of one of the most unfair airline integrations in our history.


Randy Kramer

That's right Randy. Thank you for remembering it was the loss of our careers that saved his. Many, many senior to him and his ilk. We are still picking up the pieces of wreckage that was our career. We may yet lose our house as a result of the total wipeout of income earned by both wage earners in our family. A total wipeout caused by none other than the naatives who sat back, watched, and did nothing. We didn't "fall on [any] sword" for you -- we were stabbed squarely in the back by AA, APA, APFA and the employees that inhabit those organizations. Don't ever, ever forget it. Oh, and another thing to remember, the TWA people you are still flying with (unlike those of us on the street thanks to the likes of you) still have their jobs, incomes, homes and their lives as they have always known it - so of course, they aren't nearly as pissed as those of us thrown to the street. Have a nice day.

PS-- Ritchie and Wood, save your santimonious BS that is sure to come for someone who hasn't heard it yet.

[ 03-17-2006, 17:21: Message edited by: HAWKMAN ]
 
Posted by Irish (Member # 722) on :
 
No sanctimomnius BS from me, Hawk. Just an understanding that no amount of festering hatred towards the innocent as well as the guilty is going to make things right for you.

I'm sorry for you and what happened to you, which will probably piss you off to no end, but your story is in no way unique to this industry which was ruined, not by the people employed in it, but by the corporate raiders, predatory management, traitorous union leaders and deregulators that ravaged it.

There are many who don't deserve your vitriol. [Frown]

Paul
 
Posted by extwacaptain (Member # 381) on :
 
TWA has been a part of my life for many years. (since 1945).

My objection to a comment, which I believe attacks the honor and pride of every TWA employee (past and present), was a RESPONSE to that comment.....NOT an attempt to restart an old battle.

To NOT have replied would have been unforgivable and suggested it was time for me to 'fall on my sword'.

Randy Kramer
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
It's been a long time since I checked in on the SJ public page. A friend who has earned my respect asked me to check out this thread as my name was included.

A long time ago a much wiser person than I told me:

"A TRUE friend will risk your friendship to tell you what you NEED to hear opposed to someone else who will simply tell you what you WANT to hear."

With that wisdom in mind-

To JP.. TWA has an incredibly long and proud history. Participating names on this MB include some of TWA's finest employees, customers and devoted supporters. The depth of knowledge and passion here is like a bottomless bowl that you could feed on forever.

When you are here visiting Jack Irwin's site, I would ask you two consider doing two things.

1. Know that the individuals that contributed to making TWA the proud airline it was will be most obvious. I do not need to write their names, you will quickly KNOW these great men & women from TWA by their respectful, thoughtful and knowledgeable replies.

and

2. Do what you can to ignore those who are filled with nothing but anger toward every person still fortunately employed by American Airlines. These few angry individuals do NOT represent the proud heritage that TWA took nearly 8 decades to build.

--------

To the SJ participants here- I have never met JP personally. Given the opportunity he will see my outstretched hand and hear a thank you for the professional and courteous effort he HAS put in to supporting this industry, his profession and his airline.

On the AA pilots APA message board (C&R), JP on a regular basis has been most supportive of the TW pilot's knowledge, professionalism and experience that was added to American Airlines just over 5 years ago.

From what I have observed, JP has a passion for learning and sharing what we all love of this industry and profession. To in any way attack or hinder his passion to share what he DOES have to offer would be a loss to all of you.

---------

I am optimistic that those whom have earned the right to be called a TWA supporter will quickly recognize JP's more youthful passion that many of us had for flying airplanes albeit a very long time ago.

No doubt my 32 years of combined OZ/TW/AA pilot seniority has allowed me to be INCREDIBLY lucky in my final few years before retirement. Since I began my flying lessons in 1963, not every day/week/month and even year was always what I had expected or hoped for BUT.. I always knew there was somewhere worse off to be.

I'd like to sign off by calling myself a true friend to many here.

Sincerely,

Bob Herbst

[ 03-18-2006, 09:20: Message edited by: Bob H ]
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
CA Kramer,

I'm sorry if I misused the term "fallen on their swords" to convey anything other than what I meant - which was "sacrifice." I hope I made it clear in my original post that, by all means, I didn't imply that those unlucky TWA employees who were furloughed did so out of their own will. I do understand that their ultimate sacrifice - whether by choice or not - resulted in several AA employees keeping their jobs, and as I mentioned above, that will never be forgotten or underestimated by this "native."

CA Gary Hawk, I believe I did correspond with you once regarding my jetcareers article, to which you chose not to respond. That is fine, and I'm glad at least we can carry on some form of correspondence on this board. That said, I do agree with a lot of your emotions, they are understandable. However, I also know that by starting this thread, I was going to subject myself to criticism coming from pilots such as yourself, who will never forget (and probably never forgive) AA employees such as myself - regardless whether we could do something about it or not, that doesn't matter, I guess. And I accept that criticism, because it is understandable yet unavoidable. So to that end, please know that there are "Natives" such as myself that feel that a lot of you fine folks got the shaft in this merger/acquisition, and that is something we truly feel bad for - regardless, once again, whether we could do anything about it or not. So the least I can do is remember the fine airline TWA once was, and acknowledge the fact that it was the fine employees that made it such a great airline.

Bob R and Bob H, thanks for the kind words. I hope to fly with each of you some day, and I'd like to thank you both for the contributions you each have made on C&R, a lot of what you write is nice contrast to the "you know what" that goes on over there. And once again, I apologize if some of my misinformation distorted the facts.

Cheers to all,
JP

[ 03-18-2006, 13:39: Message edited by: jpp ]
 
Posted by Mike  Ettel (Member # 432) on :
 
Hawker,

You need to bury the hatchet and 'get over it' before it consumes you.

Big airline eats little airline. Little airline doesn't get what it considers a fair deal. Unfortunately that's the real world. We found that out in the TW/OZ fiasco, and you found out in the AA/TW merger.

You'll also find out that your lawsuit isn't going to get you anywhere either.

That's life.

Mike
 
Posted by Tom Mabrey (Member # 523) on :
 
JP:

We won't see eye to eye. That is fine. It is nice that you have an appreciation for TWA. I always felt your posts on the various message boards were attempts at fairness. I appreciate that. Everyone has their own view on this industry predicated on their circumstance.

Captain K:

Wow, it was so nice to see someone outside of the effected TWA employees PUBLICLY recognize, acknowledge and comment on the situation. I realize your intent was not to pick at the wound or create any intentional rifts. That is not your style. I really appreciate your perspective and post. It was refreshing.

Mike:

Maybe you could lead by example? You couldn't make your post without mentioning TWA/OZ. That speaks volumes.

You know what they say about the folks that can't do? They instruct.

Best wishes to all
Tom
 
Posted by Adnan ILyas (Member # 115) on :
 
I think it's mike who needs to get a life, he is still crying like a spoiled girl about getting DOH from TWA 19 years ago. It's amazing,he should be lucky to have even gotten into an airline considering if it wasn't for his daddy getting him into Ozark, he would probably still be washing airplanes at the local FBO.

Adnan
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
Look guys, the last thing I wanted to do was reopen wounds, regardless of the merger involved. My intent in joining this board is to provide me with good memories from TWA, of which I have many. And in the process of remembering TWA, I felt like I needed to acknowledge all you fine individuals that made it a great airline.

I know I subject myself to the occasional comments by pilots who are still upset... and that's fine. It doesn't change the light in which I viewed your airline, and it never will.

OK, back to being a Sky Nazi - even though I've successfully resisted it my whole time here. [Wink]

JP
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
All,

LOL. . .some dude says "get over it," and then brings up the so-called unfair treatment of the OZ merger. Sounds like someone needs to heed a dose of their own advice. . .or simply remain deeply entrenched inside the realm of hypocrites?

Etle, I'll tell you what. Since you don't think "my," lawsuit is going anywhere. . .I publically CHALLENGE you, HERE AND NOW to voluntarily and publicly WITHDRAW yourself from the class.

Simple thing to do. . .all you need to do is write the judge a letter stating your request. . .and it's done. All I ask is that you post your letter here for all to see.

So, what do you say? Put your money where your mouth is? Or perhaps you feel more "comfortable," being outted as a hypocrite?

You say the lawsuit will go no where so you have NOTHING to lose by withdrawing, right? Etle, here's a chance to show us what you're made of. Are you going to walk the walk? Or are you just all talk?

To the rest of you. . .absolutely incredible. You guys embrace and warmly welcome a SNB who comes here and makes fun of you and what was once our airline! Make no mistake about it. . .you guys are gettin played.

A very important point to note is that this SNB NEVER says he is "sorry," about what happened. Quite frankly, there is no remorse here whatsoever. He did say something about feeling bad?. . .but it was said in such an insincere and disengenuous manner that I strong suggest this so-called "feeling," is the result of an overiding unconcious guilt more than anything else.

But again, you guys are amazing to openly embrace and welcome such behavior. . .from one of the very SNBs that STOLE your fellow brother's and sister's jobs. . .livelyhoods. . .and careers.

Yeah, real good show of support you have given to your fallen TWA brothers and sisters. Way to go you guys. Especially for you retired guys. . .what a good way to be remembered. . .

You know, here's a newsflash for you guys. Ya'll can get up off your knees now! The SNBs have been more than satiated by the spoils of what was once our careers!!!. . .including this spoiled little SNB who seems to be somehow driven by a guilty conscience? . . .sadly, the word "pathetic," just seems to be so appropriate right now.

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by dave carr (Member # 783) on :
 
Mr. Hawkman

Your most recent post is most interesting. I have read over and over the post that initiated this thread and I just can't seem to find anything that in any way is disrespectful to you or any other TWA pilot. He "seems" to express a sincere feeling that it is a shame that things had to turn out the way that they did in the merge of the pilot lists. He "seems" to be stating that he kind of grew up in this industry under influence of the TWA hub and culture. Is he being sincere or is he just messing with us TWA folks? I don't know, but you have certainly made up your mind.

As to your comments concerning Mike Ettel I won't express any opinions other than to say that I would think that if you are going to attack him with such enthusiasm you could at least take the time to spell his name correctly. When you're so careless with something so simple it makes me wonder about the rest of what you might have to express in your post.

Finally If I'm not mistaken there were some junior AA native pilots that were furloughed along with so many TWA pilots. After reading so many of your angry postings I get the impression that had you been one of those AA natives you would feel very differently concerning the merger and would now have the same bitterness towards the TWA pilots. I would guess that you would feel that they were all responsible for you being furloughed while they're still employed. They would all be responsible for your situation, thus they would all be scabs and scum. Am I wrong?

In no way is this post meant to be a personal attack. These message boards are designed to allow for honest and frank discussion and this is the purpose of my remarks.

Dave Carr

[ 03-23-2006, 22:38: Message edited by: dave carr ]
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
Hawkman, I think perhaps most of your fellow TWA pilots realize that I meant exactly what I posted. Not trying to kiss up, or whatever, just posting what I really feel. Those who know me know that I would never publicly come into a message board and start trashing other pilots.

I'm not too sure what you mean by "SNB" but wheher it's a derogatory term or not, doesn't bug me. If you feel you need to revert to terms like that to belittle us, fine. I know you don't truly represent the fine TWA aviators I know who made TWA a great place, and who are continuing to contribute to AA's pilot ranks. They wouldn't revert to that kind of behavior.

Finally, if you haven't by now gathered the fact that I truly regret what happened to you folks who got the ax, something tells me you never will. Oh well, I tried.

And if we ever fly together some day, I will be more than happy to share a few beers with you on a layover and hopefully "bury the hatchet."

Regards,
jp
 
Posted by Mike  Ettel (Member # 432) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jpp:
Hawkman, I think perhaps most of your fellow TWA pilots realize that I meant exactly what I posted. Not trying to kiss up, or whatever, just posting what I really feel. Those who know me know that I would never publicly come into a message board and start trashing other pilots.

I'm not too sure what you mean by "SNB" but wheher it's a derogatory term or not, doesn't bug me. If you feel you need to revert to terms like that to belittle us, fine. I know you don't truly represent the fine TWA aviators I know who made TWA a great place, and who are continuing to contribute to AA's pilot ranks. They wouldn't revert to that kind of behavior.

Finally, if you haven't by now gathered the fact that I truly regret what happened to you folks who got the ax, something tells me you never will. Oh well, I tried.

And if we ever fly together some day, I will be more than happy to share a few beers with you on a layover and hopefully "bury the hatchet."

Regards,
jp

JP,

I admire your attitude and sincerity and would look forward to flying with you someday.

Don't worry about guys like Adnan Ilyas or Hawkman... they don't represent the majority of the TWA group.

I wish you the very best in your career.

Regards,

Mike
 
Posted by Adnan ILyas (Member # 115) on :
 
Mike I made no comment about Jpp's post only your stupid reply. Apparently you failed the reading comprehension part of the GED Exam.

Adnan
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
Hey Mike,

Did you pass that GED before or after....you became a USAF C-141 commander? Just curious.

Bob Ritchie
 
Posted by Adnan ILyas (Member # 115) on :
 
Figures, along comes parrot # 2.

Adnan
 
Posted by Mike  Ettel (Member # 432) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Ritchie:
Hey Mike,

Did you pass that GED before or after....you became a USAF C-141 commander? Just curious.

Bob Ritchie

Bob... Haaaaa!! Well, they decided to raise their standards after I went thru.. they now require the GED.

I never could get thru readin' ritin' and rithmetik... hoping Adnan might tutor me someday!!

[Eek!]

Take care... Mike
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike  Ettel:
JP,

I admire your attitude and sincerity and would look forward to flying with you someday.

Don't worry about guys like Adnan Ilyas or Hawkman... they don't represent the majority of the TWA group.

I wish you the very best in your career.

Regards,

Mike

Thanks Mike, ditto.

JP
 
Posted by T-34 (Member # 1021) on :
 
Hey Adnan,

This reminds me of Politics on TWAPILOTS.com except Parrot NO.2 is always Adam! Tom
 
Posted by zip (Member # 1662) on :
 
Hawkman or whoever or whatever...
From your posting I read the following:

""Yeah, real good show of support you have given to your fallen TWA brothers and sisters. Way to go you guys. Especially for you retired guys. . .what a good way to be remembered. . .""

Could you please tell retired guys like me and Dave Carr and Captain Randy exactly what you expected the "retired guys" to do? Maybe refuse our TWR passes?? How about bad mouth AA to all our neighbors so AA could go out of business??

You definitely need to move on. I can't imagine what your blood pressure must be...

with sincere concern for my less fortunate fellow TWAers regardless of craft....best regards. George Andre
 
Posted by IA Farm Boy (Member # 2024) on :
 
Though I barely have a dog in this hunt (never worked at AA or TWA), I guess I'll throw caution to the wind and jump in.

I was attempting to get hired by TWA when the merger was announced. I had jumpseated on you guys many times, and almost to a man (yes, you ladies too!) I enjoyed it every time. What a great group of people. That feeling has been reinforced by flying with many ex-TWAers at Eagle. I'm a six year FO, who because of the flowback hasn't been allowed to upgrade, and thus am paid in peanuts, not dollars. Again, TO THE MAN, every TWAer I've had the PLEASURE of flying with has been a true CLASS ACT. I can only hope to one day exhibit as much graciousness as I've received. They are all aware that neither of us is where we really want to be, so why don't we just have a safe trip, and enjoy the work as well as the off time. I am treated as a professional, and I look forward when I see that we're flying together again.

JPP's post seemed to me like another person such as myself who likes people, LIKES TO FLY, and wishes things would've turned out different. Perhaps I missed something. What I didn't miss is that unless this was posted on a bad day, I'm glad Capt. Hawk didn't flowback. I experience enough "of his ilk" already, and I can't look forward to being locked in a confined area with such for four days. I tend to look at things from the positive, so I'll assume it was a bad day.

Compared to the bad day that the crews of four airplanes had on 9/11/01, and the bad days that their families have had EVERY DAY SINCE, including loss of spouse, income, home, bankruptcy, child raising issues and such, Capt. Hawk's problems seem not as significant. I know that each of us have our problems and there are days when I wish I'd kept playing piano in the Cat House, but I try to remember that MANY are worse off than I, that I AM NOT A VICTIM, and that there is too much good to get wrapped up in the bad. It is tough to keep that in perspective, and some days I fail, but I try. Thanks to great people, like the one's who worked at TWA, staying positive is a little easier for me.

IA Farm Boy
 
Posted by IA Farm Boy (Member # 2024) on :
 
I can't remember where I found this, but I thought it to be a pretty good article:

By Kevin Garrison

CEO of the Cockpit

Finally, the long winter has passed, and we pilots are finally able to shed our heavy uniform coats and show up for work in our summer attire -- white shirts with epaulettes.

The winter uniform coats are great for experienced, healthy" (meaning chubby) captains like myself, because the formal jacket covers a lot of the results of too many cheeseburgers and beers. The uniform coat is also great for holding cell phones, notepads, passports, and the minimum three pairs of eyeglasses I now carry with me because I am in my dotage.

I found myself skulking around our base's pilot lounge because, through a combination of bad timing and good traffic, I am an hour early for my trip. Since we have to report one hour before push-back, and since I hardly ever show up at the airplane until about 15 minutes before push, I have a lot of time on my hands today.

Timing Is Everything

Why do I wait so long to show up at the airplane? I've found that it is a good captaining technique. If you show up too early, you get in the way of
the people trying to turn the airplane around for the next flight. Cabin cleaners, caterers and mechanics really don't need you bulling your way into the cockpit, slinging your heavy luggage around and asking loudly for coffee.

Also, I've found that if you show up fashionably late, you allow your crew to do their jobs and can avoid a lot of inconvenient decisions. When you
show up, for example, your co-pilot might say, "I found a bald main landing gear tire during my walk around and I have maintenance changing it." Your
head flight attendant will come up when you introduce yourself and brief him or her and say, "The caterers haven't shown up yet but I've called them."

Most problems take care of themselves if you show up at just the right time, making your day much easier.

Not only does this technique make work easier for you because you don't get that involved, but it also helps things go more smoothly and allows everyone to have a role in the operation. When I was an engineer, I knew a co-pilot who'd had way too many captains who were closely involved with everything. These guys would jump out of their seats to stick their noses into everything. Why are we five minutes late? He'd jump up, run out to the jetway to ask the agent. Was the mechanic working on the bleed air valve we wrote up? Our active captain would leap into the fray and would add 10 minutes to our delay by demanding that a 30-year veteran mechanic explain everything to him.


The CEO Explains the Concept of SEPs

While I am a firm believer in doing your job to the best of your ability, there is no need to spend a lot of time worrying about SEPs. What is an SEP? Someone Else's Problem.

Let's say before push-back that there is a loud drunk back in coach raising hell. Once you have the agent -- or if the person is really nasty, the
police -- get the drunk off your airplane, he becomes an SEP. I don't waste my time on SEPs.

I usually don't waste my time on pilot lounge bull sessions either, but since I'm so early today and since the argument near the computers seems so
loud and interesting, I thought I'd listen in.

To The Ramparts!

"A contract is a contract!" shouted Bill, one of our 767 co-pilots who today looked a little stressed and angry.

"I'll take a pay cut when upper management shows some leadership!" says another guy, who I don't recognize but who looks suitably angry and earnest. "It's not our fault that they ran the company so close to bankruptcy. Also, we all know they took care of themselves -- big bonuses and they just took their retirements outside of the company, so if it goes bankrupt they get theirs!"

I'm not totally sure how I feel about all of this stuff. To be sure, airline management nationwide hasn't shown the leadership ability of a five-year-old. When you ask a five-year-old to hand out some cookies to their friends, you expect them to distribute them. It looks to me like if
you gave most airline management the same assignment, they'd show up with cookie crumbs on their kissers telling you that it was "more prudent" to not distribute the cookies and to eat them themselves.

Most pilots have been though some sort of leadership training or another and know the basics. You eat after your people eat. You hit the rack after your people go to bed. You don't ask your people to do anything that you wouldn't
do yourself. Basics, at least by current appearances, seem to have totally passed all senior airline leaders by. It will be very hard for them to inspire the troops to make sacrifices if they continue to take bonuses, divorce their retirement fates from the troops' and then tell everybody that they are more valuable than the people they lead and must be offered all of
this swag to keep them from leaving the company for a better job.

The days of being managed by people who came up through the ranks of the airline world are clearly over. People who started out throwing bags or
fueling aircraft are no longer working their way up to mahogany row. Number crunchers and people with less than five years in the business now find
themselves running things. We shouldn't be surprised that they don't know that much about running an airline -- just last year they were probably running a mutual fund.

While it all upsets me very much, I try not to spend all my time focusing on that particular problem. I'm cordial to upper management people when I run into them -- which is rare, because I understand that some of them don't
travel with the "great unwashed" but fly in fractional jets -- but I don't spend my days off at home firing off angry letters to them. Life is too short to ruin it over a job, and that is what airline flying is -- a wonderful, great job, but in the final analysis, just a job.

Assuming there is any retirement money left over after this latest firestorm of incompetence, I'll be gone sometime in the next decade. Then all of this will fade into the background and more important concerns will come up. Things like, "Why won't my Luscombe start?" and, "Where is my tennis bag?" will supersede concerns over whether or not our company's CEO is a talentless geek or an inspired genius.

To The Sailboats!

My co-pilot, Bob, who showed up in the pilot lounge right at the required hour before push, found me near the bulletin board and shook my hand.

"What a great trip we're gonna have!" he said. "San freakin' Diego! Twenty-four-hour layover! Wanna rent a sailboat?"

Thank God you and your great attitude are here Bob ... I was just about to sink into a funk and be grumpy this whole trip. Your perspective on things
has made my day. Of course we should rent a sailboat. We should also invite the flight attendants and arrange for a variety of onboard food and beverages -- meaning cold brews. How come you aren't all wound around the flagpole about all of the demands for us to take pay cuts and all?

"I look at it all this way," he said. "I'll be involved when it is useful to be involved but I won't waste my time or happiness bitching about things when there is nothing I can do about it. I spent two years furloughed some years back and it was a hard thing to go through, but you know what? I survived. There is a world outside of flying airliners and to tell you the truth, the outside world doesn't give a rat's ass about us and probably shouldn't. We should fight our battles but I won't ruin my life in the meantime and not enjoy where I am right now -- which is getting ready to go to San freakin' Diego!"

I have to agree with you, Bob. I know that we're going to have to take some sort of cut. Not because the current troubles are our fault, but because if everybody else is taking a hit we should too. I just hope our guys negotiating the new deal don't give away the store. I also hope that whatever part of the "store" that we give away doesn't end up in an upper-management retirement fund, but I know that someday soon there will be a new deal.

I'll write letters when it is the thing to do. I'll even go to meetings and will walk the line if, God forbid, it comes to that, but I won't spend a minute of our 24-hour San Diego layover worrying about it. You know why? Because like heartbeats, there are only so many great San Diego layovers in a pilot's life and I refuse to waste a single one of them bitching about the world.

Bob goes off to score a few newspapers for the trip and I head to the sandwich shop to grab us some grub for the "crossing." We get crew meals,
but for long flights I always like to have some higher-quality chow onboard. Years ago, when I was a DC-8 engineer, I would go grocery shopping with
money the crew gave me. Pizzas, cream sodas and the like would grace our galley and I'd spend a lot of the leg cooking for the crew. Now that we are "locked down" in our cockpits away from evildoers, we are limited to sandwiches and snacks.

The Leg Begins And We Solve An SEP...

Sandra, our head flight attendant for today, agrees with the sailing plan for San Diego and tells me about the "secret shopper" program the airline has just started.

"The way it works," she said, "is they have these consultants in the back taking notes about everything we do. They are supposed to be undercover, but it isn't hard to pick them out. They are youngish, well-dressed, and are
constantly staring at us and jotting down notes."

"Let's say you don't use the right technique in clearing a meal off of a tray table," she continued. "The secret shoppers write you up. Then you'll get a note from your supervisor and maybe even a meeting with management to explain yourself on your day off."

"As a matter of fact, I think one of our secret shoppers is in the back right now. It is still before push-back and she has already taken three
pages of notes."

It was top of climb before I came up with the solution to Sandra's problem. Let's not make a big deal out of this, I said, but let's have security
people talk with your "secret shopper" when we get on the ground in San Diego. After all, since we don't know this person and since they are showing
way too much interest in our activities maybe they are a security risk. They should at least be detained and questioned.

After solving that particular SEP our flight went just like everybody thinks every airline flight does: smooth air, sunny skies and friendly controllers. It is hard to be mad at the company when they give you a nice 767 to fly,
and pay you for it. It is difficult to stay mad at a system that allows you to order security interviews of snitches, and it is impossible to stay mad at a world of airline flying when you are looking forward to an afternoon on a sailboat with your friends and getting paid for it.
 
Posted by ss278 (Member # 244) on :
 
Well, I hardly know where to begin. I'll just plunge right in.

I never worked for TWA, though from the time I took my very first airplane flight in 1958 -- TWA Constellation from New York to Paris -- I knew that I wanted to be a TWA pilot. At the age of seven it is easy to be impressed.

I grew up and became a pilot, though not for TWA. Not-so-good eyesight relegated me to flying singles, then twins and doing charter work. I loved every minute of it. Though I longed to fly airliners I knew it would never be. I went into the family business and became the next-best-thing, in my mind anyway. A loyal TWA passenger until the day the doors closed.

In all those years I have never met a more gracious, wonderful, professional group of people than those who worked at TWA. And I freely admit, when the last day came, I hoped for the best but I also cried for all of you.

Many problems, misjudgements, and mismanagement took TWA down, not the least of which was the "incredible greed of one man". Through it all the employees held their heads high and always did their jobs as best they could. For that, they have every right to be proud of what they accomplished. I applaud them still.

But life isn't always a bed of roses. Hindsight will always allow you to see "if I had only done this ... or not done that" things might have turned out differently. Except in planning for another try, it is an excercise in futility. What is done is done and cannot be undone.

There comes a point when you have to let it go, or it will consume you.

Easy for me to say, right? Well indulge me. Perhaps I know whereof I speak.

A week ago Friday I closed the doors on our family business, six weeks shy of being open for sixty years. Hurt? Hell yes. My kids intially didn't undertand why we had to move twice in the last five years, each time to a smaller place, why the vacation home on the golf course with the pool is gone, why the perks they were so used to became fewer and fewer as I kept thinking to myself, "if I can just hang on I can turn this thing around." Well, they didn't. The industry had fundamentally changed and I figured it out too late. Case closed.

I can at least point to the fact that when the doors closed, I didn't owe anybody a dime and all my employees got every cent due them, including their pensions. 52 of my 60 employees were taken on by the company that bought us out, the others retired. That is the good part.

But where does it leave me? At 55 I'm starting over. Yes we were bought out, but after the bills were paid it left very little for me personally. My family is not destitute. We have a roof over our heads, clothes on our backs and food on the table. We will survive, and hopefully again oneday prosper. I say this not for sympathy. I don't need any nor do I want any. Only to make the point that you need to play the cards you are dealt, sometimes, to make the best out of an incredibly horrible situation, and to do that requires you to put the past behind you, not be consumed by hate or percieved injustice.

It ain't worth it.

Sorry for the rant. At least I feel better.

To all airline families who have been affected by this rotten turn of events in your industry, I am very sorry. I sincerely hope that all will turn out well for you. God Bless.

Jack M.
 
Posted by Jeff I. (Member # 2334) on :
 
Jack -

Extremely well written and heartfelt. I am, of course, saddened to hear of the events surrounding your business. I think many segments of the economy seem to be going through a huge transformation with many people getting squeezed out or caught in the middle. I always considered my father lucky in that he studied metallurgical engineering, worked in the steel industry and rode that wave during the halcyon years and retired at age 62 ........ just as things were really starting to turn sour for the steel industry in the US. In any event, I wish you nothing but the best in the coming years and ........ you still are a "young" man at 55!

As to this thread, I was reluctant to jump in and ..... am still hesitant a bit to offer anything since I, too, was never employed by TWA nor any segment of the airline industry. And ----- I echo your wonderful comments on the truly special character of the TWA family and how those of us who were loyal passengers were quite privileged to have been around such a unique and wonderful group of individuals as the TWA employees who served us throughout the years.

For those who have been around this board, the Yahoo board, etc. over the past 6 or 7 years, my opposition to the AA acquisition of TWA is well known. To this day, I don't believe the official story and, as much as I know how some of you like and respect Bill Compton (and I liked him as well when I met him), I don't believe he handled the acquisition well at all.

All that said, as a passenger I have been welcomed by American and have been treated quite well. I am back to enjoying my flying experiences (in fact, today I head out to SF for a couple of days). They have been professional and courteous and, compared with the rest of domestic airlines at this point, I believe they are the best of the bunch.

Do I believe there were individuals at AA who acted very poorly during the acquisition. Absolutely! And ----- there is no question that almost all TWA employees received a raw deal in the integration.

Also ---- were the TWA stockholders sold down the river? In my opinion, they were. We all knowl AA wouldn't have made the deal w/out TWA declaring bankruptcy so that AA could avoid Karabu transferring over to AA. For this ..... I think Compton callously disregarded his fiduciary duty as CEO to the TWA stockholders. He basically drank the Carty Kool-Aid that promised a great new existence for TWA employees, the city of St. Louis and the state of Missouri.

Having said all of this ........ as of a few years ago I did ease into a sub-conscious decision that it was time to move on. Again ---- like Jack, it is easier for us to say that since we weren't directly impacted on a professional level (although I did lose money on TWA stock .... LOL!) But ----- because I have encountered many very nice, professional people in my travels on AA and they have welcomed me into the fold in a big way, I am not about to make a blanket indictment of everything related to American Airlines. As I said, I still hold my opinions on the demise of TWA and how it was handled by management at the time (although, as Jack stated, Icahn is still the main culprit ..... having left them in such a weakened condition that they were almost at the mercy of a bigger fish).

But ----- I think one can hold opinions to what they believe is the truth and still move on. What did JFK say ....... life isn't fair? Well ---- for most of us, we encounter events in our individual and collective lives where this statement is true. To wallow in a victimization mentality, though, is counterproductive.

Jeff I.
 
Posted by Irish (Member # 722) on :
 
I'm not going to pile on, Hawk, but you really ought to listen to what these guys are saying. Hope you're still here.

Paul
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Irish:
I'm not going to pile on, Hawk, but you really ought to listen to what these guys are saying. Hope you're still here.

Paul

Ditto Paul. Hawk seems like a pretty decent guy and from what other STL pilots have told me, he was a good guy to fly with. I have no doubt that he will contribute greatly to the AA pilot group once he comes back, as almost all of you TWAers have done. I would expect that had I been in his shoes, I would also feel some bitterness towards what happened.

JP
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
JP,

I think that your impressions of Gary are accurate and I echo them. We all must remember that the postings under "Hawkman" do not always emulate from him

There are a number of unpleasant, postings on the TWA Family FA web site, which closely mirror comments made under Hawkman's name here at Smilin.

So...."with a grain of salt."

Bob Ritchie [Smile]
 
Posted by Adnan ILyas (Member # 115) on :
 
JP, I would also caution you to listening to the likes of Bob R, and Mike E, these 2 individuals are telling Hawk to let it go, yet bring up the OZ/TWA merger every chance they get. Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black. I'm not defending Hawk, he can do that for himself. Everyone has their timeframe to get over things, I got over it a while back, though once in a while the anger rears it's ugly head, usually for a very short time and then I'm over it. One thing I did learn was that I got over it when I was ready to get over it on my own, no amount of people telling me get over it was enough. I'm sure the same applies with others, they'll get over it when they are ready too.
As far as AA is concerned, if I have a good job before my recall, I'll pass on AA, if not, I'll be back as I suspect most will follow the same logic. Good luck to you.

Jack M,
I'm sorry that you lost your business, and from your post, you have moved on which is great to hear. Good luck, I hope turning the page will bring you greater joy.

Adnan
 
Posted by T-34 (Member # 1021) on :
 
adnan,

For a change, I must say I agree with you! Tom
 
Posted by Adnan ILyas (Member # 115) on :
 
Tom,
Wow, you and I agree on something? I should play the loto today. BTW, do you belong to the Navy flying club at Willow Grove? I did my CPL and CFI on the T-34 with Monterey Navy Flying Club and found it to be a fun plane.

Adnan
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
Adnan,

Within this thread I ...."welcomed JP to this site:" asked Mike "when he passed his GED", acknowledged that Gary H. "had a good reputation," "was a good guy to fly with," that I "echoed those sentiments" and noted that ....not every posting under "Hawkman" was actually written by him.

Although numerous,respected, posters suggested or implied that "moving on" was a positive idea....I never suggested such nor did I mention the OZA/TWA merger.

I am happy that you found a good job at Kaletta(not sure how it is spelled)and hope that your career goes so well that you will have little reason to consider returning to AA.

Best Wishes to you and those that you love,

Bob Ritchie [Smile]

[ 03-29-2006, 17:41: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]
 
Posted by ss278 (Member # 244) on :
 
Adnan,

Thanks for the kind thoughts. They are much appreciated.

I'm "moving on", can't quite get to the past tense completely, but I will. Its taken me many months to get to this point. The buyout and close down took a while, so I had a bit of transition time and I thought when I finally turned the lights out for the last time a couple of weeks ago that would really mark the end of things. I made the mistake of driving by the empty building yesterday and, well, it turns out I'm not quite "done" yet. But I know things will be okay.

Why?

Because I had dinner the past two nights with two different colleagues, and I discovered I really don't have a care in the world compared to what they are going through. God works in strange ways.

PIT Beast:
If you see this, thanks for the PM. I tried to respond but was unable to do so. Clear your mailbox! I'll try again.
 
Posted by cschulte (Member # 415) on :
 
This thread reminds me so much of the Yahoo days of the late 90's & in 2000. There was such optomism about TWA back then. That seems like a lifetime ago. I enjoyed all of your postings back then, especially "TeeWay 2000".

Best of luck in your future Tom & everyone else as well.

Chris
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
Hello Adnan, thanks for your input. Regardless of past events, I always listen to whatever everyone has to say, because different people always contribute different angles to a particular conversation. We may not agree with certain angles/opinions based on past events, but they can be valuable none the less.
That said, I've had the pleasure of meeting CA Ritchie and from my immpression of him I don't think he would purposely come out and "stir the pot" or "rub it in" regarding the OZ merger.
You did mention something very true, and that is that folks will get over it when they're well and ready - most likely on their own, not when someone tells them to. And that's something I greatly respect, I hope I've conveyed that message in my previous posts.
I hope whatever decision you take in the future brings you happiness. And if that means coming back to AA, I look forward to sharing a flight deck with you some day.

Regards,
jp
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Hey to just about All,

Thanks to most of you for the replies. Most of your posts were good and well written. As usual, I discounted the ridiculous ones.

I apologize for not responding quicker but I just simply don’t have a lot of time on my hands these days to sit around a write messages. Recently, I seem to be more of a lurker than anything else. (I do try to make a concerted effort to read all the replies here.) So, again, my apologies for taking so long to respond.

First and foremost, let’s get one point perfectly clear. My purpose for posting in this string is not about being the so-called “victim.” My posting simply deals with ACCOUNTABILITY.

Sorry to say, but a common theme seems to be rearing its head of recent; american pilots and flight attendants trying to play the “innocent,” routine. Or, I think some even may feel a tiny morsel of guilty about how poorly the TWA people were treated. And let’s not forget here, the MAJORITY of TWA employees were literally thrown out onto the street directly by the unions, employees, and management of american airlines. Of course, after being treated in a horrible and shameful manner by the same.

And now, some of these same folks are trying to “play,” us by attempting to make us believe they are “sorry,” or have some kind of “regrets,” about what they did to us? After all this time has past? And Dave, make no mistake about it. . .it’s not what the message says, but it’s the insincere and disingenuous tone that says it all. With all due respect to most here in this forum, it’s a little too late to be that disingenuous and insincere.

You know, if I saw an american pilot come to a forum where only “TWA is spoken here,” trying to be all humbly apologetic and all, trying to talk up how great TWA was, my first thoughts would be the attempting of some kind of absolution from some kind of latent, underlying guilt.

Unfortunately for these “players,” there are folks like me who will never forget how horribly and shamefully we were treated specifically from and by the pilots of american airlines. And as such, I have no problem with describing what exactly happened and raising these issues to ensure that the american pilots will be remembered for what they did and how horribly they treated us. Simply put folks, at this point it’s about ACCOUNTABILITY.

Now, this paragraph is specifically for the retired folks. No one asked any of you to give up any of your all-important retirement bennies. Just a few words now and then of sincere encouragement and support for your fallen brothers and sisters would go a long way. . .something kind of like what the consummate gentleman, Capt. Randy Kramer has been doing since the beginning of our very unfortunate journey.

Another item, please rest assured that everything posted here under my name is from me. Yes, sometimes my wife is nice enough to transcribe what I am saying while on the phone, for example. Writing styles aside, if my name is posted it is from me. Likewise, my wife is more than happy to use her own screen name when she posts, as Jack has been more than kind to allow her to do so.

To recap, I hope that you can all understand that my posting here is not about being the “victim,” asking for sympathy, or anything else along those lines. My posting here is simply about accountability. . .something that I feel is especially important when I see someone apparently trying to absolve their guilt by trying to “play,” us in such a purposely deceitful and shameful manner.

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
You see, gentlemen, no matter how much I agree with Gary's posts/emotions, he refuses to acknowledge that fact.

Yes, I do feel guilty about how AA handled the merger.

Yes, I do regret how so many fine TWA employees were laid off.

Yes, I do regret not having TWA around anymore.

Yes, I'm sorry - I APOLOGIZE - on behalf of my airline for all the broken promises.

Despite all of these acknowledgments, something tells me that Hawkman will find another "insincere, disingenous tone" in my post.

Gary, my friend, I hope you look back some day and realize that a lot of people were trying to help you through your crisis - even an evil "SNB"! (I still don't know what that stands for... Super Nice Buddy?)

Cheers matey,
JP - a nice, Anti Sky Nazi [Wink]
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
JP,

I never knew for sure what SNB means either. But I think that it might be a rule 32 violation and therefore I will not hazard a guess.

I think the exchange on this thread has helped some wounds begin to heal. At least that is my hope.

Young airmen like you and Hawk have decades to engage this industry. The real enemy is something against which we all need to unit.

Perhaps we can learn from the sins of our fathers and make a better future. When it is your turn....remember the mistakes of the past. Those of us who preceeded you have failed miserably.

Best Wishes to all present and future airmen.

Bob Ritchie
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
Bob, I agree wholeheartedly. I just wish there wasn't so much backstabbing and "what's in it for me" amongst the ranks and that we'd all start acting more unified.

The TWA pilot group was a tight close-knit family, and if that existed here at AA, we'd be that much better off.

Best wishes,
JP
 
Posted by IA Farm Boy (Member # 2024) on :
 
"Simply put folks, at this point it’s about ACCOUNTABILITY."

Capt. Hawk's position brings up an interesting point.

If American Airlines were to merge/ aquire another airline, what method of integration would you prefer? You indicate that the seniority integration was unfair to TWA employees (most here agree it was). Would you advocate DOH with the other carrier (NWA for example)? A staple? A modified staple (like TWA)? I guess the high road would be DOH. We probably agree that the low (down) road is a staple. So which would you advocate?
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IA Farm Boy:
"Simply put folks, at this point it’s about ACCOUNTABILITY."

Capt. Hawk's position brings up an interesting point.

If American Airlines were to merge/ aquire another airline, what method of integration would you prefer? You indicate that the seniority integration was unfair to TWA employees (most here agree it was). Would you advocate DOH with the other carrier (NWA for example)? A staple? A modified staple (like TWA)? I guess the high road would be DOH. We probably agree that the low (down) road is a staple. So which would you advocate?

I'll take a crack at it....

Of all the means of integrating another pilot group, a staple should never even be considered. There is a reason as to why ALPA merger policy does not even consider a staple, and that's because it is extremely damaging to the acquired pilot group, period, while administering a seniority windfall to the acquiring group.

DOH should always be considered, but not always fair to the other group (AWA/US.) I believe that, absent DOH, a straight ratio or relative seniority integration is the best way to go. Equipment fences may also be necessary.

I saved the most important point for last - and that is: in the absence of an agreement between both groups, integrations should ALWAYS go to neutral arbitration. That is the only fair way to settle a dispute, and in the end if one group gets less than the other, all they can blame is the arbitrator, and not the other pilot group.

Respectfully-
JP
 
Posted by Jeff I. (Member # 2334) on :
 
Speaking of Accountability ------ the only moment of candor I've ever seen re: an explanation for TWA declaring bankruptcy was when Compton, testifying before Congress and obviously not prepared well enough by AA's lawyers, stated that the bankruptcy wasn't his idea. He was quickly reigned in by the powers that be following that statement (I'm sure Gitner had a panic attack listening to that thinking that his buyout might be in jeopardy ...)

It was my opinion (and continues to be) that the only way the truth would ever come out about the manueverings behind the scenes would be in the context of a shareholder suit. Short of being put under oath in a civil suit and being hammered with questions from a plaintiff's attorney, I am quite confident we'll never get anything out of Carty, Compton, Gitner, Abels or the rest of them ..........

Jeff I.
 
Posted by B717FLYER (Member # 269) on :
 
First read this thread today. Pleased to see my name pop up totally irrelevantly (Thanks, Tom).

Re: hatred. For various masochistic reasons I read several aviation message boards and the most distressing thing I see is all the hatred pilots exhibit for other pilots bases solely on whom their employer is. It's stupid and ignorant. While it's only human nature to seek out people to blame that doesn't make it right. I know from my conversations with AA friends (from long before the merger) that the vast majority of AA pilots were purely bystanders to the events. In fact, most pilots are purely bystanders to most union activity. One may choose to assign collective culpability to every AA pilot but that's pointless and even counter-productive. Under these circumstances hatred breeds only more hatred. This doesn't mean I'll embrace every AA pilot I pass in the terminal but it does mean, for instance, that I would never speak against an AA pilot I don't even know being hired somewhere. I don't berate AA pilots on our jumpseat. My guess is that Hawkman is one of those guys who'd deny a jumpseat to every AA guy as a matter of policy. Of course, that just leads to retribution and commuting pilots like me get screwed.

Through no fault of my own I'm now embroiled in another merger: AWA-USA. Guess what? There's bitter feelings, but not from me. There's no point. It distresses me but some of my collegues have echoed statements we hear from the rabid AA types about how USA pilots should be treated by AWA. Every airline has these people. This confirms my belief that airline pilots are pretty much the same no matter which airline they fly for. To guys like Hawk it feels better to hate but it doesn't to me.

Adam Segal
AWA FO
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
Congratulations Adam,

You've broken the code. But then one should not be surprised. Your reasonableness come through even during our darkest hours.

Best wishes at AmericaWest/USAirways.


Bob Ritchie
 
Posted by gemini (Member # 2918) on :
 
After reading this thread,it is the same ole same ole.
No AA'er should apologize to any TWA'er.
This was not an employee "doing".
What is becoming very old is the anger like "Hawkman" and his wife continuously post on boards.Move on.Your anger is not healthy and not one person has to bow down to you and apologize.
By the way,Hawkmans posts sound so much like his wife's verbage.Hmmmm
NAB

[ 04-09-2006, 17:28: Message edited by: gemini ]
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Hi Barbara,

Nice to hear from you here on Jacks. Just a few quick items to address your supposed concerns.

Yes, you're right, it's a little too late for apologies. . .so at this late stage why even throw insincerety at us?. . .it just simply doesn't work as the supposed "apologies," wring hollow.

Let's face it Barbara, actions speak much louder than words so my first reponse to any of the pathetic/hollow attempts to apologize is to say. . ."oh yeah, so where have you been for the last FIVE or so years?"

Barbara, I wouldn't be too quick to say this wasn't an "employee," doing. I think you will be VERY surprised about just a few things when the TWA pilots lawsuit enters discovery. . .including how apparently tightly wound together both AA and and the APA (Yes, that means at least the pilot EMPLOYEES,) were in their effort to just plain get rid of us all. . .contrary to all the testimony and lies that were dolled out to the public.

And no Barbara, hate has no place here. . .or anywhere else for that matter. However, I will say for the record that ACCOUNTABILTY does. . .and will for a VERY long time.

You know, also for the record, it's just too bad you aligned yourself with those who apparently sold the TWA F/As down the river. Quite frankly, what happened to your group was more aggregious than what happened to us. . .and at one point I thought your group had a much stronger case than ours. . .so, prey tell, what happened there?

Anyway, Barbara, I will close in saying "thank you," for the INCREDIBLY generous compliment. Maybe you don't know this but my wife has returned to school full time in order to finish another degree. The school and curricula she is matriculating is VERY heavy in writing. . .and so far my wife has a 4.0 GPA. Yes Barbara, anyone who thinks my writing is anywhere near as good as her's is definately giving me a compliment. So once again Barbara. . ."thanks."

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by gemini (Member # 2918) on :
 
Move on.
 
Posted by Irish (Member # 722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by HAWKMAN:
. . .so, prey tell, what happened there?

"Prey" tell? Is there a Freudian slip lurking here?
 
Posted by IA Farm Boy (Member # 2024) on :
 
I notice that no attempt was made to answer the question- "what method of integration should be used NEXT time?"

Hawkman- what is it?? What would be fair with, say, an AA/Alaska or AA/NWA merger?

[ 04-10-2006, 21:01: Message edited by: IA Farm Boy ]
 
Posted by DC9 (Member # 202) on :
 
DOH with some temporary protective cells.
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
There is hope,

Within the past week I have had personal conversations with two TWA pilots with whom my personal relationship had been difficult,during the long and painful process of the AA/TWA cramdown. Often it seemed that they and I were of opposing positions. Frequently we clashed on this and other message boards. Looking back and even at the time I felt that our discussions contained more misunderstanding than anything else. Considering the passions of the time and the difficulty of communicating via a medium such as this...it is was difficult to avoid such.

One of the guys was a non rev on my flight. I invited him to the cockpit for a visit. Our conversation was brief but pleasant. I was left with the feeling that wounds were healing.

During my last trip, I had an hour long conversatiion with another individual with whom I had often clashed in the past. It was a warm and almost tender discussion. We found a great deal of common ground and I felt that we left one another as friends.

Perhaps time and experience has proven what I always believed. We always had much in common. We were all TWA pilots and we recieved unfair treatment at the hands of the APA. Our only true difference was....how to deal with that reality.

Hopefully we have all learned from our painful experiences. My long and fruitful career has only 13 months remaining. I will not be around to participate in future challenges. It is my prayer that the younger pilots,who have decades left in this industry, will apply these experiences and rebuild this once proud brotherhood of airmen.

Bob Ritchie
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Rich,

Didn’t know that question was directed at me. But since YOU asked let’s take a stab at it!

Jim, my friend, you have it all wrong. “DOH,” with some restrictions/fences!? That‘s not how it should go at all. OK, let’s use a CAL/aa “buyout,” type merger for the following example. And, let’s say we are the CAL side and CAL is buying/merging with essentially most all of aa’s assets.

Yes, our CEO worked a deal with aa’s not-so-brite CEO, and got aa to pursue certain filings that will virtually eliminate aa’s creditors while protecting his parachute. Thus, as a result we can take the company for a virtual “steal.”. Also, VERY cool that our CEO got approval for the buyout/merger by testifying before Congress that the aa employees would be given jobs and treated right. Well, at the very least let’s make sure the pilots are all treated right! (BTW, we’re not going to pay any attention to our company’s warning of a future downturn in the economy and a probably downsizing of the company. . .that wouldn’t be right.) So, let’s get down to it.

First off, let’s start by throwing some good ole fashioned “hate,” around. . .specifically by insulting and demeaning the other carrier’s pilots. Let’s elevate ourselves to “Nordstrom” level pilots and equate those guys to a lessor “K-Mart” type of pilot. . .of course, all in a attempt to make the opposition think they are unworthy. So, while we’re at it let’s keep going with the hate thing, so why don’t we also compare them all to “hot-dog vendors.”

Now, let’s set a not-so arbitrary line in the sand. And, let’s insult them some more by calling ALL their line captains who fall behind that line as “illegitimate.” Man, this is starting to look good!

Now, let’s look at their “career expectations.” Not looking so good right now. . . their company made certain filings and aa was recently near bankruptcy. . .barely holding now with a not so good outlook for a major legacy. AE is poised to completely take over the domestic flying within the next several years.

So really, it safe to say that at the very least, the aa F/Os have no career expectations so they should ALL be STAPLED below our most recent newhires. Oh, that’s right, we have some guys currently in the training pipeline. Well, let’s just get the company to move back the hire date we already gave them so they will fall onto the list BEHIND all of our training candidates!. . .LOL!

You know, let’s really slam it home to these guys. Let’s move the staple line up and STAPLE some of their bottom half CAPTAINS too. Those guys won’t mind, they’re all lucky just to have a job anyways.

Ok, what do we do with everyone else? Well, why don’t we ratio them in with the most senior aa captain with the most senior K-Mart type getting filtered in with our most junior 1991 hire. Why 1991? Who cares, it just sounds good and keeps them out of our most senior guys ways. Then, the rest will come in at say a 8:1 ratio. That is, only one of the K-Mart types for every eight real Nordstrom CAL pilots.

Oh, they do have some airplanes and it may take some time to convert them to our configuration? So, in the meantime, let’s come up with some very minor protections for their Dallas hub. The company is going to get rid of it anyway so it really doesn’t matter.

Let’s create a “cell,” that protects only their most senior captains who are above the STAPLE line. This might even get some of these senior guys to work FOR us and to work against their own! BTW, didn’t some of their guys come here to try and work out a “special,” backroom deal for themselves anyway?

Hmmm, company says HOU base is too close to Dallas and they really need to shrink down a bit to make this work. But the fleets are still separate and we can’t fly their airplanes because they are technically on a different certificate. Let’s come up with something that will get rid of them even faster!

Why don’t we come up with a special program called “CAFO.” This will allow their remaining bottom half captains to move back to the right seat. . .accelerating the furloughs of the rest of them by at least a good six-months to a year. We’ll let the “CAFO,” guys keep their 4 stripes and captain pay but they will really just be F/Os flying from the right seat. What a GREAT idea! Keep hammering them that they are lucky to have a job. . .that along with keeping the 4th stripe and pay should keep that group happy. . .and QUIET!

Yes, we’ve never done anything like this before, but hey. If it accelerates the hot-dog vendor’s exits off the property then it’s worth it.

Ok, so what’s this? They are making some kind of offer based on an average seat position and average date-of-hire? And they are trying to claim that they came WITH their own routes, seats, jobs, and equipment? And that no CAL pilot will be adversely affected? What? And, they’re trying to claim that their proposal shares the wealth and spreads the “windfall,” of a stronger company to BOTH pilot groups!? Forget it. They don’t deserve to be here anyway.

Just play along like we’re really interested in negotiating and in the meantime, we’ll sign our own deal for our own protections with the company. Not only that, but I have it on good word that the company really doesn’t want any of that trash over hear either. Remember, we were hired, not acquired. So, the word is the company will work WITH us in getting rid of them as fast as we can. Let’s follow up on that ASAP!

What? The K-Mart types don’t like this sweetheart deal we’re offering them? What? They are considering some legal action? Forget it, let’s just sign our own merger deal with the company and FORCE this thing where the sun ain’t shining! We’ll just add it as a supplement to our current agreement and call it “CC.” Wow, what a real crap sandwhich we made for them! LOL! These guys won’t know what hit them. They won’t even have have legitimate recourse as our grievance system is rigged against them and won’t even hear their cases. . .LOL!

And you know, while the company literally throws their K-Mart captains out onto the street with the company trash, let’s make sure they know how privelegded they we’re to even get a paycheck with the company logo on it.

LOL! Don’t worry about future recalls. We’ll all be senior to them when they come back and they will have to do what we tell them to do. . . and they’ll just be lucky to be in the presence of “Nordstrom,” type pilots. Man, are we good!

What’s this? They really are considering some legal action? Really? Well heck, let’s sue them FIRST! That outta really throw them off. Not only that, we’ll use the dues money from the ones that actually joined our association to WORK AGAINST THEM and to fund OUR litigation. . .LOL!

Man are we GOOD! No, make that the BEST cause remember, we’re “Nordstrom!” BTW, don’t worry at all about the long run. Most of them will be “healed,” by the time they come back and won’t remember a thing about what we did to them or how we treated them like crap. Not only that, but if any of them do speak up, we’ll just control that with threats of the dreaded aa “Rule 32,” and threats of termination. Man, do we have this merger covered or what!?. . .LOL!

Ok, back to Rich and Jim. Well, now that we have covered the true reality that the majority of us former TWAers faced. . . which is VERY contrary to the sorry-ass “reality,” that some others would try and have you believe, maybe, and just maybe, you can now surmise how a merger should NOT be handled.

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by DC9 (Member # 202) on :
 
Hawkman,
I guess I'm really too dumb to figure out how you would merge 2 seniority lists,so why don't you tell me how it should be done in just a few words.
I certainly know that the socalled AA/TWA was not right.

[ 04-12-2006, 15:32: Message edited by: DC9 ]
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
Dc-9,

The blueprint is ALPA Merger Policy. Negotiation, Mediation, Arbitration.

NWA/REP followed it during the 1980's. AWA and USAirways have agreed to follow it in the 21st century.

No need to reinvent the wheel!

Bob Ritchie


Bob Ritchie
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
On behalf of most former TWA pilots I know.. My apology for the angry and mostly inaccurate words expressed here by Gary Hawk.

I know MANY former TWA pilots who have the class and respect for others that IS AND WAS what TWA represented and stood for during its 70 year history.

Individuals LIKE Gary Hawk are no more representative of the TWA I was fortunate to work for any more than a few outspoken jerks represent all of American Airlines.

Bob Herbst
OZ/TW/AA and proud to say I wore wings for all of them.
 
Posted by DC9 (Member # 202) on :
 
Hey Bob,
Hope all is going well with you and the family.How many years to retirement?Take care.
Jim
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
All,

Funny, just about everytime I bring up exactly what happened to us it seems to hit some nerves and an attempt is made to label history as somehow being "angry." Same parrots, spoutin off the same sad chirps. Problem is Bob, that your chirps will not, and cannot change what really happened to us. . .or what really happened to you in the past.

What was it that you were trying to make us all believe again?. . . That somehow you OZ guys were mysteriously STAPLED? Was that it? Was it?

Bob, you once had a great level of respect among many of us real TWAers, including myself. However, when it became evident that you were misconstruing your "facts," to further some kind of apparently misaligned bs agenda. . .much of that respect evaporated.

Proud to have worn the aa wings, eh? Yep, I expected you would one day say that. . .just the same as i always suspected the other parrots. Bob, funny thing, I always suspected that you seemed to related better to your new friends than you did with us. . .your former colleagues. Just a thought.

You know, my wife and I talk somewhat frequently about the results of what happened here. The unfortunate, sad reality is that this merger showed us the true, dark side to many people we once thought were our friends and colleagues.

Bob, you can try and apologize all day long and, make as many chirps with your misaligned and misconstrued bs as you want. It doesn't change what happened. . .and it will not change the ACCOUNTABILITY for what happened.

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
Tell us how you really feel, Gary... it's not quite coming through in your posts.

p.s. your integration idea sucks. I say we just send it to arbitration if the two groups don't agree. Well?

jp

[ 04-12-2006, 18:42: Message edited by: jpp ]
 
Posted by Mike  Ettel (Member # 432) on :
 
HAWKMAN,

Sure is gratifying to see that you are finally over you hate and anger [Eek!] . Apparently you are the only one in airline history who felt he got screwed during a merger.

Mike
 
Posted by Jeff Harris (Member # 128) on :
 
Guys,

I think you should cut Gary some slack. He is angry about the merger process that was, or not used. I am too! The TWA pilot group was screwed and you and I and Gary know it. I can't find any errors in his analogy and it is a pretty accurate description of what happened. I was livid in 1986 because the process of ALPA merger policy was not followed and experienced the same feelings in 2001 when a group of pilots decided how the merger was going to go down without any input from the other group. This greed and arrogance only hastened this profession's plunge to the bottom. We have only ourselves to blame. Henry Davis told me in 1978 that "we college boys were going to screw up this job" I dismissed him as being an old fart living in the past: I'm now an old fart having to live with the mess we have made of this profession. We fly airplanes very well, but the disunity and me, me,me syndrome has made us vulnerable to our employers threats. Don't believe me look around: DL, NW, UAL

I won't be so arrogant as to tell Gary and the others how to handle the pain associated with thier present situation. I hope and pray that they will not necessarily forgive and forget, but learn how to cope with the anger and not let it ruin the rest of thier lives. I was able to do this twice and am the better for it.

Jeff
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by DC9:
Hey Bob,
Hope all is going well with you and the family.How many years to retirement?Take care.
Jim

Hi Jim,

Less than 4 years or after the next trip I've had more than enough of this stuff [Smile]

Fortunately.. I made it to the 767 and mostly do HNL which is a NEEDED change after 30 years on the DC9.

You'd REALLY REALLY REALLY have to love flying to want to keep doing this after 32 years. It sure ain't what it use to be.

I still EASILY remember how much fun it USE to be. A couple of trips with me as YOUR lowly FO come to mind, especially one L/O in MIA!! As JP says, there were times when this job "rocked".. Luckily there are still a few FO's like him around to encourage the enthusiasm factor.

Did you get your handicap down to scratch yet?

Hope all is going great for you and Mary. Elaine says hi.

Bob H
 
Posted by Irish (Member # 722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Harris:
I hope and pray that they will not necessarily forgive and forget, but learn how to cope with the anger and not let it ruin the rest of their lives. I was able to do this twice and am the better for it.
Jeff

Jeff,

That's the message I've been trying to impress on Hawk. I've never said he's wrong or that the merger was right but that it's done and he needs to get over it. It scares me to think of him sitting on a porch rocking chair in his 90's agonizing over the merger. What a waste.

Paul
 
Posted by IA Farm Boy (Member # 2024) on :
 
Alright, alright. I'll just come out and say it.

I do not know Capt. Hawk, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night. I doubt you'll ever get him to admit it, but after reading Capt. Hawk's posts, I think he'd do it to the next guy. After all, it happened to him. You see, I assume (yes, I know what that means) his Seniority DOH is now 2001. So by doing a straight DOH merger, or even ALPA merger policy, he'd "lose" more seniority. So he'd not care, even perhaps be glad, as now he'd "profit" by having more guys "below" him.

Capt. Hawk, I hope I'm wrong. But your words betray that attitude. I suspect the Reno Air guys felt the same way. Who could blame them? Except that its plane wrong (pun intended). Where does it stop? When does someone (Bueller?? Anyone??) do what's right, even if it COSTS THEM? For everyone's sake, I hope that AA grows and no more integrations happen. I hope that Capt. Hawk gets recalled to the base of his choice and flies happily ever after. And Mrs. Hawk too. Lastly, I hope I don't end up on his jumpseat, as it might be a long ride. I can't imagine being his FO.

Our whole industry is a mess, and while it's hard to see the brighter days ahead (I have trouble with that somedays, too), they are out there, and it's not the whole world's fault (nor every single nAAtive, including JPP) that my life "sucks."

Rich Wilkening
American Eagle
Six year FO
Looking forward to flying with my favorite TWA Flowback this week! (Hi Lee!) (Sorry, Mike, Jimmy, and Lee G!)
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
Rich,

How dare you say it's not my fault? Haven't you been keeping track of all the issues I am personally "accountable" for?

j/k [Big Grin]

Hawkyman will will get over it some day, and realize that he wasted an incredible amount of negative energy on something that was out of our control. I think we're all looking forward to that day. Some day we'll share a beer or two on a layover, eh? [Smile] [Cool] [Wink]
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Rich,

"I do not know Capt. Hawk." Your words couldn't be more accurate. But somehow your six years as a commuter F/O, that you seem to be so proud of, has made you some kind of expert about something?. . .Hardly.

Jeff,

My friend, your words ring so true and smack of a "been there, done that too," sense. Angry? Yes, I certainly have the right to be angry or bitter just as you did. Especially considering what was outright stolen from me, also considering how poorly I was treated in the process.

However, I choose a different path. . .that of "ACCOUNTABILITY." Yes, ACCOUNTABILITY for what was done and how poorly we were treated. Unfortunately, by no choice of my own, I am living proof of the downright greed, avarice, discrimination, and "hate," that is IMO what makes up the aa pilot group.

And, as a result I have no problem with reminding them or the public of what they did. Especially, when I may come accross some punk trying to act all innocent and cute while pathetically claiming to really miss TWA.

No matter how hard some may try, especially for those who, for some reason, continue to work against us, history will not be changed. . .and neither will the ACCOUNTABILITY for that history.

Jeff, thanks for showing some respect and not demanding that I somehow "move on," or just go away and shut up. How insulting and shameful that is to come from those former colleagues who seemingly worked against us. . .or those who have never even been in our shoes.

But that seems to be the norm around here. . .let's kick the furloughed guys while their down. . .a real class act from some of you that will be remembered, that's for sure.

Jeff, thanks again for the kind words of support, and for your compassion and understanding.

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by IA Farm Boy (Member # 2024) on :
 
"But somehow your six years as a commuter F/O, that you seem to be so proud of, has made you some kind of expert about something?. . .Hardly"

AHHHH!!!!!!! I knew it would come out eventually. Attitude. Gary, because you flew big shiny jets, you must be a superior pilot and human being. I kneel in submission. When you get back, you will fit NICELY with your APA comrades.

My six years as a "commuter FO" doesn't make me an expert, nor my ten prior years as a professional pilot, nor all the other FAA licenses (wanna compare?? using your attitude there). I'm hardly proud of being a commuter FO, but I am proud that I've maintained my professionalism in the face of adversity. I am proud that when I fly with a flowback Capt (none of which were on AMR property when I was hired), I remain professional (always) and cordial- if they don't exhibit the superior airman/ human being attitude (familiar?). I have helped TWA Flowbacks understand Eagle Vacation bidding, as well as monthly bidding. I do it because they are nice guys and we all are just trying to make the best of a bad situation. None of us want to be where we are.

And you didn't answer the question still- how should the next merger work? Go ahead- its ok...

Rich Wilkening
(cowaring in the corner FO)
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
Hey Rich,

Give it up. Gary Hawk has chosen to try and convince the whole world that his situation deserves so much more attention than everyone else who got affected.

Be the better man, as I have been. Gary's attitude will eventually catch up with him. The only person he's hurting here is himself.

One more thing - Squawkman does not represent the attitudes and work ethics of the fine people I knew at TWA. So you can pretty much dismiss his frantic ramblings in much the same way I dismiss a 3 year old's babble.

JP
Admirer of 99.9% of TWA's pilots. Gary knows where he fits in...

[ 04-15-2006, 13:39: Message edited by: jpp ]
 
Posted by HAWKMAN (Member # 2039) on :
 
Rich,

Unfortunately, it has become painfully obvious that your inflamatory posts have offered nothing of substance to the issues brought forward on this message string. So far, your posts have offered only inflamatory opinions/attacks and in of themselves, raise question as to your motivation for participating in this string.

Rich, with respect to others, there are "civilians," reading this board who have far more knowlege with regard to what happened than you could ever hope to. . .even considering your six years of experience as a commuter F/O. And for some reason Rich, I get the distinct sense you are not here to learn from those who have been there. . .done that. . .and got the t-shirt.

So, as much as you do not want to hear this. . .my answer to you is simply "no."

No Rich, I will not enter into a tit-for-tat flame-bait with you. I don't feel that is appropriate here as that only serves to insult the maturity, integrety, and intelligence of those who choose to participate here.

HAWKMAN
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
Hawkman,

Sorry for losing it. Every so often I allow my emotions to post instead of my rational thought process.

Check your email.

regards,
jp
 
Posted by NoWake (Member # 1486) on :
 
I do understand anger that HAWKMAN has towards the “worst merger in airline history” (this is Nothing to be proud of) and to sit back while having a paycheck making a deposit every two weeks and telling him to get over it is just wrong. Until you walk in the shoes of another you really have no idea what that person is going through.

I will air my laundry for you. I was making myself literally sick (not everyone would admit this) during the final months and beginning of my furlough. I was so pissed off I turned down the flow back bid because I was in no condition to fly, not to mention flying with a FO who did not want me in “their seat”. Once I was furloughed I received my CDL and relocated heavy equipment, then I got another airline job at the “next Southwest”. We all know what happened to ATA. So there I was again getting sick and this time twice as bad. So I decided to drive trucks again and got a job driving for a PITA company made me want to start up my own trucking company. We put up everything that we own to do it. Sleeping and showering at truck stops around the country and eating food that made crew meals look gourmet. Then Hurricane Katrina hits driving up fuel prices and hit our cash reserve hard. In fear of getting upside down in the SB loan we decide to cut our losses and get out. Now I am trying to get another job in aviation because it is truly what I love. But guess what….I have been out of the flight deck for two years, I do not have 1000 of jet PIC, and the only flying jobs that would consider me pay $18,000 a year.

I walked the line and started flying as a teenager while my friends did coke, went to rehab, and got arrested. Then I received my A&P and FCC in college and finally got a great job at TWA. I know there is someone in the world that has it much worse than I do and I completely understand this, but this is why I worked hard as a young man to have a secure future. So to tell me or anyone else to get over it is just not right because EVERYTHING I WORKED FOR WAS FOR NOTHING. No big deal get over it right? It is just money! But do doctors, lawyers, CPAs have to go through this? Sure they could lose their job and take a 20% pay cut at the new location….but they are STILL in the same pay bracket. Most pilots do not have that luxury.

To say the least I was really pissed off but these days not so bad and I am no longer making myself sick. But I have my moments and get angry when I think about having my career ripped from my dreams.

JP, I do not however agree with the personal attacks towards you because it does appear you are one of the caring guys. But you also have to admit that you are a minority in group and this might be the reason for the attacks.

Side note: Life changes when you have to sleep on off ramps and shower at dirty truck stops. Looking back at TWA I used to get caught up in all the pre-merger bitching and looking back at it I would give my ‘eye teeth’ to have it all again. When someone says you do not know how good you have it until it is gone is a very true statement.

Side note II: HAWKMAN I loved you analogy of the future merger! Spot on!

Sorry for the long wind.
Rick

[ 04-19-2006, 16:20: Message edited by: NoWake ]
 
Posted by Irish (Member # 722) on :
 
Rick,

You've just condensed the entire airline industry of the 21st century into seven paragraphs.

When my son started college he wanted to follow in my foot steps in the worst way. I told him what his future looked like in aviation and he earned his degree in biology. He then worked for a few months as a tech rep for Compuserve while his fiancee earned her masters at Ohio State.

He then earned his masters in environmental engineering in Oregon and worked a six-month stint as a NOAA biological observer on an Alaskan fishing boat out of Dutch Harbor.

He survived that, one of the world's most dangerous occupations, thankfully, reutrned home, married and got a job as an IT internet programmer for a medical records company.

He now makes just under six figures, has two lovely kids whom he reads to and puts to bed every night and is very happy. I guess I gave him the right advice.

I don't know why this is relevant. I guess your post made me feel blessed and grateful for his success.

I wish you the best.

Paul
 
Posted by donuway (Member # 803) on :
 
Rick,

After 34+ years in the industry, I could have told you that trucking sucks! Like most industries, unless you are in the "right place", it was a lot more fun in the pre-dereg days.

Like the airline industry, the companies that are survivng are the ones that were/are managed very well, started up right around the time of dereg, or weren't bought by people who didn't know how to run them.


Don
 
Posted by NoWake (Member # 1486) on :
 
Thanks for the kind postings guys.

I guess what I was trying to say is....sure someone will always have it worse off as well as there will always be someone who will have it better. But it still does not make what happened to the TWA pilot group right. No one should tell anyone not to be angry or hurt just because someone else has it worse off. Everyone is entitled to their own feelngs.

It is also hard to believe that after flying the 767/757, 717, MD80, 727, and 737 not to mention the overseas flights I do not have the experience.

Thanks
Rick
 
Posted by jpp (Member # 2913) on :
 
Hello Rick, thanks for the good posts.

I agree with you 100%, and I've readily admitted that sometimes the attacks against me have caused me to post without really thikning through what I was writing. For this I apologize, and I am man enough to tell Gary Hawk publicly that I apologize. (and to all other TWA pilots I might have offended as well - sorry.)

Gary's style is to ignore whatever I say - both on this board and through private email. I guess his message is clear enough, but since I know he reads what I write, I'm satisfied knowing that he understands my point of view as well. And that's all I need. (His response to this statement will be in the form of a long winded post directed to someone else, while publicly ridiculing me using that third party. And that's OK.)

Anyways, the reason I, and several of you, have tried to reach out to him is simple - we all have public knowledge that the Hawkman was, and is, a decent guy to begin with. And when you know someone that decent who starts acting completely out of character, you try and understand why that is. In this case, it is a matter of pure hatred anytime the AA name is brought up - whether it be someone like me, who tries to "mend fences" (as impossible as that will be!), or an AA commercial, or a news article mentioning the APA - anything like that will trigger an extremely unpleasant reaction that is completely out of character.

The important thing is to recognize that reaction and never forget that the person you really know is still there. I do realize that, despite never having known Gary, everyone I've talked to who knows him and his wife have nothing but good things to say about them.

Coming back to the topic, Rick, yes, I do care. While I never flew at TWA, I felt like I had several ties with the airline, both as a customer/frequent flier, and as an employment possibility while attending Parks College in the 90s. I had more than a few friends get hired over there, and I always saw myself eventually getting hired there as well. While the job never materialized, nevertheless the impact that this merger had on your pilot group affected me more than the typical AA pilot because of the above reasons.

Some of you will forever hate me, despite never having met me, because of my association with AA. As you pointed out, Rick, whenever those people surface and make their hatred evident, I have to pause, stand back, and tell myself that had I been in their shoes, I most likely would feel some animosity as well. Hopefully not hatred, but definitely some animosity. And so the story goes.

So that's why I felt compelled to post on good ol' SJ. Never with the intention of mocking your fine pilot group - but rather, to share some of my experiences with the TWA pilots I've had the pleasure of knowing. Obviously, a minority of you will view my posts as taunts, or whatever - they're not. But who am I to convince you?

And finally, Rick, I wish you all the best in getting back into this career. If I can ever help you, I will in a flash - and to any other pilot as well. After all, I broke into this career with a lot of good folks helping me out as well. And after all of the drama you guys had to go through, it would be the least I could do.

v/r,
jp
 
Posted by NoWake (Member # 1486) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jpp:
In this case, it is a matter of pure hatred anytime the AA name is brought up - whether it be someone like me, who tries to "mend fences" (as impossible as that will be!), or an AA commercial, or a news article mentioning the APA - anything like that will trigger an extremely unpleasant reaction that is completely out of character.


My wife and I still "flip off" the television set every time American is on or when they run their promo at the Blues games.

I am sure we are not the only ones venting. Just right now we are the only ones talking publicly about our feelings. [Wink]

Thanks for your offer.
Rick

[ 04-20-2006, 10:53: Message edited by: NoWake ]
 
Posted by Gumby (Member # 743) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bob H:
On behalf of most former TWA pilots I know.. My apology for the angry and mostly inaccurate words expressed here by Gary Hawk.....
.........Bob Herbst
OZ/TW/AA and proud to say I wore wings for all of them.

Bob H.,

Gary's words may be angry but I beg to differ on "mostly inaccurate" or don't you recall the comments of "Kmart" and "Hotdog vendors" by AA pilots. His parody of the next integration was spot on as how we were treated. You may be sitting in STL but the majority of TWA pilots were scattered to the winds by the "fair and equitable integration" and "reasonable best efforts". Mike Ettel and you may grouse about the TWA/OZ merger, but in comparison, was DOH with fences. If the airline had grown at that time, you would not have lost that left seat. We,on the other hand, lost the entire seat.

Not angry anymore(yeah, right)

John
 
Posted by DC9 (Member # 202) on :
 
Well said and hopefully a lot of people will heed your words.
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
Tammy,

God Bless you and your dear son. Your post just tore at my heart. I never knew Mark but, met you a couple of times at TWA and knew your dad a bit from my Pitts flying.

I cannot imagine the pain which you are forced to endure or how you manage to cope. You have always been a class act and I pray that you will continue the courage and strength to somehow go on and of course nurture your son.

Your advice to those of us so much more fortunate is right on. You remind us of what really matters in life and what is eternal.

I remember the darkest days at TWA when it looked as if there was no tomarrow for the airline. My wife and I sat across the kitchen table and anticipated our future. Finally we agreed..."we have our health, our love, our children and one another." "If TWA goes belly up" my wife added, "you can get a job as a lineboy and I'll work as a waitress at Denny's." "We'll sell the house; buy a prefab, invite the neighbors over for BYOB, BBQ and card playing." "We'll live like we did when we first started out!" "We had lots of fun even when we were poor. Right?" "The hell with Ichan....he cannot take away our love and happiness.


That was in 1990. From that day forward we lived one day at a time. We were free. We lived, laughed and loved. All the wealth in the world could not buy what my wife and I share. All the wealth in the world cannot replace what you have lost.

God... or fate;whatever you chose to call it, took a great love and light from your life. Most of us have loses which can never compare.

Thank you for the lesson of life. May your future bring peace, hope and once again much happiness.

Bob Ritchie

[ 04-23-2006, 15:30: Message edited by: Bob Ritchie ]
 
Posted by Jim Elkan (Member # 1828) on :
 
Bob,

Thanks for saying so well what we all would like to have expressed..No one could have said it better..

Jim
 
Posted by zip (Member # 1662) on :
 
Well said, Bob. We often forget the most important priorities in our lives and we also neglect to consider how things could be a lot worse for any of us.
God bless, Tammy.
[Frown] [Cool]
 
Posted by T. Carmichael (Member # 2931) on :
 
Well, it's so nice to be back... [Roll Eyes]

JPP--It's nice to see someone with a good attitude in aviation. Don't change.

Others--Prior to my displacement from the CA seat, all my FO's were headed out the door. I sympathized with them and tried to give them hope but I couldn't possibly know what they were feeling.

A year later, as I was headed out the door, I got the same platitudes from CA's who had never experienced what I was about to--being laid off with 15 year seniority and less than one year out of the CA seat.

They could not possibly know what I was feeling. Their paltry two year furlough as newhires did not qualify them as having walked in my shoes. Every newhire knows they are furlough-fodder.

That is why I foam at the mouth when CA's here and elsewhere tell Gary to "get over it". Sure, for his long-term health, I hope he does get over it. I know him and Colleen and I know their love for TWA and I know they won't "get over it".

But none of you here telling Gary and others to "get over it" have that right.

Until you've lost every single thing you've worked for over 20 years, you need to bite your tongue and get over the fact that he and a couple thousand like him will likely never "get over it".

No merger comes without cost. The cost to those still employed is the fact that those of us on the street will never be out of sight and, consequently, we'll never be out of mind.TC
 
Posted by Skypilot (Member # 2924) on :
 
TC,
I agree with your post, if you haven't been there you don't know what it's like. That being said, it has always been my thought that someone saying "get over it" to anyone who appears to harboring a great deal of hatred about something, is only trying to suggest to that party that no good can come from such hatred. It obviously is extremely difficult to do when one has been harmed as the TWA Pilots have, but nonetheless hate is almost a totally counterproductive emotion. While I, and many others, have not walked in the shoes created by this act, we all have experienced actions in our lives that may have conjured up great hatred, and subsequently had to deal with and get past it. As you said we all hope, for health, that everyone can eventually do that here.

DON
 
Posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy (Member # 130) on :
 
Hi Tamara! perfect.

Bob R: grrrreat perspective as well.

just to be known: I STILL and will always abhor "them" for what they COLLECTIVELY and in numerous instances SINGULARLY did to us...because..in the now INFAMOUS words of one of their OWN."because we could". I also abhor those of our own who have a knack for two sides of the mouth, depending on the audience. Oh...and the "get over it" crowd..ESP the ones who use that concurrently with how just AWful they have it with oz/TWA. puleeeeeeze.

I feel betta now...it's MY therapy!

[ 04-24-2006, 12:15: Message edited by: Don Capt Skypig Foldy ]
 
Posted by Skypilot (Member # 2924) on :
 
Skypig,

Your sense of humor gives away that your "therapy" is productive, though inquiring minds would like to know if it is accompanied by a clear liquid or a dark brown one! Mine is mandarin clear. Hope your family and work are all doing well.

DON
 
Posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy (Member # 130) on :
 
I dunno what color it is in the dark....all I know is that the liquid is "strong, steady-stream". LOL.

Which reminds me of when I used to be asked if I wished any coffee from the F/A's. Depending on the audience (F/A demographics to be more specific)...my first answer was...."sure...if it's made and if you have time...thanks!!!!" "How do ya take it, Capt'n Pig?"

"Just like my women, of course!"

The universal reply was "yeah, rrrrright. So it that black and hot, or light and sweet?"

"I don't care what color it is, as long as it's strong!". [Big Grin]
 
Posted by 7848 (Member # 324) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy:

Which reminds me of when I used to be asked if I wished any coffee from the F/A's. Depending on the audience (F/A demographics to be more specific)... "How do ya take it, Capt'n Pig?"

"Just like my women, of course!"

The universal reply was "yeah, rrrrright. So it that black and hot, or light and sweet?"


Being an L1011 FE, I answered, "Old and bitter".

One gal says, "Well, we've got plenty of them back there!"

Chuckled all the way to LHR.
 
Posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy (Member # 130) on :
 
honesty's the best policy, eh? they say admission is half the battle!
 
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
 
I think most of the 2440 TWA pilots would have loved to get DOH just like the OZ guys got.

With DOH I wouldnt have been on this 10 year vacation, loss of my marriage, on unemployment twice and some other neat things.

Were any Ozark pilots furloughed for over three years with the possibility of recall as far off as 2013.

Classically, the APA leadership has agreed to raising caps and scheduling practices that will help to defer recalls. I don't remember the TWA pilots doing that to the 67 OZ pilots that were furloughed for approx a year.

Those saying to "bury the hatchet" have jobs and weren't stapled behind NAAtive pilots hired after the merger date (June 10th date vs. April 10th date of merger). Nor did their airline have wide-bodies and Int'l destinations. For those of us that got stapled, we have no medical, no passes and the chance of getting on the A300 or 777 is about as likely as inviting Don Carty to Christmas dinner.

Everyone I talk to in the industry comments on how selfish and greedy the APA and it's pilots are, so the "opinion of few" is shared industry-wide.

1995-hire - projected furlough 10 years.
Projected retirement MD80 reserve F/O

"Don't worry how they integrate you, you're getting a huge raise"....Famous quote from a TW/OZ Capt.

Missouri unemployment pays $250 a week. I don't know if I'll be able to spend it all in a week.
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by chrispy:
I think most of the 2440 TWA pilots would have loved to get DOH just like the OZ guys got.

With DOH I wouldnt have been on this 10 year vacation, loss of my marriage, on unemployment twice and some other neat things.

Were any Ozark pilots furloughed for over three years with the possibility of recall as far off as 2013.

Classically, the APA leadership has agreed to raising caps and scheduling practices that will help to defer recalls. I don't remember the TWA pilots doing that to the 67 OZ pilots that were furloughed for approx a year.

Those saying to "bury the hatchet" have jobs and weren't stapled behind NAAtive pilots hired after the merger date (June 10th date vs. April 10th date of merger). Nor did their airline have wide-bodies and Int'l destinations. For those of us that got stapled, we have no medical, no passes and the chance of getting on the A300 or 777 is about as likely as inviting Don Carty to Christmas dinner.

Everyone I talk to in the industry comments on how selfish and greedy the APA and it's pilots are, so the "opinion of few" is shared industry-wide.

1995-hire - projected furlough 10 years.
Projected retirement MD80 reserve F/O

"Don't worry how they integrate you, you're getting a huge raise"....Famous quote from a TW/OZ Capt.

Missouri unemployment pays $250 a week. I don't know if I'll be able to spend it all in a week.

Hello Chris,

Your conclusions above aren't even close to the projections I show for you.

Would you mind explaining to me how you come up with:

1. 10 year furlough? (I show approx ~6 years)

2. Your suggestion of never getting to the 777/A300? (My projections show you with a ~500 AA seniority number in 2027 when you turn 60).

3. Your comment above- "Projected retirement MD80 reserve F/O"? My projections show you as a STL S80 CA in ~2017,, A 767 CA (AA system) in ~2020 and a 777 CA for your last ~couple of years.

4. Referring to your quote from above; "Classically, the APA leadership has agreed to raising caps and scheduling practices that will help to defer recalls... I've researched APA's history and I can find ZERO evidence of this occuring.. Could you please explain when this supposedly happened?


=============

I haven't noticed any pilots telling any other pilot to "get over it".. I have noticed that some of us question the validity and usefullness of blaming 100% of the AA/APA pilots for what has unfortunately happened to so many pilots after 9/11.

I'll also add that it is very common that so many (TW) pilots who were never here for the TW/OZ integration (you were hired over 11 years after the 1986 OZ/TW integration) are so inaccurate in their presumptions and analysis of what DID happen to the junior two thirds of the OZ pilot list. It sounds a lot like you're saying.. "OZ pilots should be happy for what happened to us (junior two thirds) and for what the TW pilots/Icahn gave us? [Smile] [Smile] "

As a 1986 displaced DC9 OZ CA and a ~22 year TW FO I still consider myself incredibly fortunate for what this profession has provided for me.. No doubt many had it better and obviously many have had it worse than me.

I will add that you are correct that none of the OZ pilots furloughed in 1986 were furloughed as long as you will be (Note: There were 86 OZ pilots immediately furloughed and 32 DC9 OZ CA's displaced when TW pilots agreed with Icahn to take the OZ MD80's in 1986 while ZERO TW pilots were furloughed/displaced. Using the DOH integration, within 3-4 years, 73% of the former OZ CA's had been displaced to a JUNIOR FO position).

It should also be noted that in 1986 and the time period the OZ pilots were furloughed/displaced.. There was no 9/11 tragedy which caused the industry/profession devastation that has affected nearly every airline with unprecedented furloughs and economic devastation.

Wishing you well,

Bob H
Projected 36 year career with over 20 as FO and a AA seniority number of 4000+ when I retire in 2010.

[ 05-04-2006, 06:33: Message edited by: Bob H ]
 
Posted by 757orBust (Member # 54) on :
 
Tammy,

Let me add my sympathies to those expressed by Bob Ritchie & others here. What a sweetheart you are and what fond memories I have of flying with you. Life can be so unfair, it seems, to those that deserve so much more.

My Prayers are with you and your son, Mark.

Denny West
 
Posted by dave carr (Member # 783) on :
 
Hello Bob

As always I enjoy reading your posts and find them quite interesting. Our careers will turn out to be somewhat similar. I also had almost 36 years with 20 as F/O and 16 as Captain. Fortunately I didn't end up as #4000 and was lucky enough to have been able to fly the L1011 and 747, but I did end up retiring off the 767/757 so maybe the comparison is more valid that might be readily apparent.

A quick question. I'm lousy with numbers (general math was the highlight of my math career) so don't laugh at my question. When the OZ/TWA merger came to pass I had 20 years seniority. Somewhere in my past I remember Bob Ritchie stating that 20% of the OZ pilot group were senior to me at the time of the merge and I was a junior md80 Captain with 20 years seniority. If my memory hasn't failed me and the % is correct that means that 80(+or-)OZ captains joined the TWA seniority list ahead of me. If this is correct how can it be that 73% of the former OZ captains became junior F/Os?

Hope all is well with you and family. As always, I wish you the best.

Dave Carr
 
Posted by DC9 (Member # 202) on :
 
Dave,
If my memory is correct there were about 114 OZ pilots senior to me when the merger happened.I believe there were about 450 OZ pilots total.I was hired April 7,1967.I was the first of my class to check out as Captain.I checked out in STL on 10/29/89.

[ 05-04-2006, 08:53: Message edited by: DC9 ]
 
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :
 
Dave,

Bob H. and Mike Ettel(now very ill) have the OZA/TWA statistics.

Now to more important issues. I seriously injured my left knee in Feb. while hiking/backpacking over numerous steep ridges. Just trying to behave as a 19 year old! Have been limping and recovering ever since. No Machu Picchu in my near future...if ever.

How are the plans going for you and the grandson concerning your hike this summer?

Bob
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dave carr:
Hello Bob

As always I enjoy reading your posts and find them quite interesting. Our careers will turn out to be somewhat similar. I also had almost 36 years with 20 as F/O and 16 as Captain. Fortunately I didn't end up as #4000 and was lucky enough to have been able to fly the L1011 and 747, but I did end up retiring off the 767/757 so maybe the comparison is more valid that might be readily apparent.

A quick question. I'm lousy with numbers (general math was the highlight of my math career) so don't laugh at my question. When the OZ/TWA merger came to pass I had 20 years seniority. Somewhere in my past I remember Bob Ritchie stating that 20% of the OZ pilot group were senior to me at the time of the merge and I was a junior md80 Captain with 20 years seniority. If my memory hasn't failed me and the % is correct that means that 80(+or-)OZ captains joined the TWA seniority list ahead of me. If this is correct how can it be that 73% of the former OZ captains became junior F/Os?

Hope all is well with you and family. As always, I wish you the best.

Dave Carr

Hi Dave,

**PLEASEE** This info is in NO way meant to "stir" anything up.. The OZ/TW thing happened 20 years ago and while we may not forget it happened, WHAT happened never enters my mind anymore.. TWA pilots taught me a LOT and I gained many friends because of TWA.. You, Denny W and Jim C are just three of the TW pilots I think a GREAT deal of.. I OFTEN get a private chuckle remembering our **MANY** Williker discussions with our daily golf group that ALWAYS ended in OZ/TW [Smile] battles [Smile] .. THEN we'd set up the tee time for the next morning and do the same thing all over.. I consider myself INCREDIBLY lucky to have those memories.. Did I mention I wasn't too thrilled with my Nov 1986 55% multi year pay cut?? [Wink]

Anyway, to your question-

Based on a very old file on my computer--

At the time of the TW/OZ integration there were-

2,904 TW pilots

544 OZ pilots.

The integrated TW/OZ list included;

5 OZ pilots in the top 7.3% (#1-250)

65 OZ pilots in the top 14.5% (#1-500)

111 OZ pilots in the top 29% (#1-1000)

141 OZ pilots in the top 43.5% (#1-1500)

157 OZ pilots in the top 58% (#1-2000)

176 OZ pilots in the top 72.5% (#1-2500)

210 OZ pilots in the top 79.8% (#1-2750)

61.4% (334) of the OZ pilots, including 90 OZ CA's were DOH integrated into the bottom 20.2% of the combined list (most junior 698 TW/OZ pilots).

---------------

As many know, the OZ CA's were provided a 3 year DC9/CA protection fence the end of which they were displaced based on their new integrated seniority. As I recall, for some OZ CA's the 3 years was extended to ~4 as TWA was not able to qualify (TW) pilots fast enough to replace the displaced OZ CA's. I and 31 other OZ DC9 CA's were originally included in the 3 year protected CA fence.. BUT, In late Oct in order to provide incentive [Wink] [Wink] to get the OZ pilots to "agree" to the TW integration demands, Icahn and the TW pilots took the OZ MD80's from OZ and placed them in the TW schedule effective Nov 1.. The "3 yr protected OZ CA" jobs were then re-calculated without credit for the OZ MD80's. This is the reason why 86 OZ FO's were furloughed and 32 OZ CA's were displaced out of the 3 yr protective cell to FO on 4 days notice. Note: ALL OZ DC9's and MD80's were in TW service through the late 90's.

Somewhere in box buried in my basement I have the old TW/OZ seniority lists and a lot of the integration specifics/corespondence, code a phones etc. It wasn't a pretty picture..

TODAY-- I COMPLETELY acknowledge that the ~300 TW pilots that were DOH after my OZ DH and are now junior to me have every reason to be pissed. Mergers/integrations ALWAYS screw some group of pilots. Sometimes it just takes a long time for it to happen.

WHAT most everyone does not know is that the OZ attorney in the 1986 TW/OZ merger is also the SAME attorney who represented the AA/APA pilots in the 2001 AA/TW merger integration.. I don't think it was just a coincidence that the junior ~60% of the TW pilots were integrated into the 2001 AA seniority list at nearly the exact same percentage ratio as the junior 60% of OZ pilots were integrated into TWA in 1986.

Anyway, it's always great to read something from you old-timers [Smile] .. And thanks for the comments.. Although it should be noted that some TW pilots don't think much of my analytical knowledge or ?expertise?..

I hope all is well with you and your family..

SINCERELY-

Bob H (one incredibly lucky and thankful airline pilot)

[ 05-04-2006, 10:44: Message edited by: Bob H ]
 
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
 
Hi Bob,

Thanks for your facts.

First and foremost, I dont have a problem with the OZ Pilots in general. Most were excellent stick and rudder pilots and generally pleasant to fly with.

What I do have a problem with is pilots saying that the TWA pilots got what they deserved for what they did to the OZ pilots. Most of us that are on furlough were in high school or grade school back in 1986.

I respectfully contest that I will be hired back by furlough year number 6. That is 36 months from now. My records show that I am 1470 numbers below the water line which would require recall classes of approx 40 per month for the next 36 months. Nothing indicates to me that this is realistic. Recalls may start in 2008-2009, but it will take about 2-4 years in my opinion for my number to be recalled.

It may be a stretch that I will retire an md80 F.O, but I think it is equally a stretch that I will ever see a Capt position on any widebody at AA.

I read a letter written by Capt Ralph Hunter-APA MEC telling the pilot group how he has observed much debate involving the strong personalities for which we were hired at American Airlines. It went on to say that the APA is working closely with AMR management to become more efficient so that the furloughees will come back to a stronger airline. Sounds great, but pref bidding will only require less pilots to help offset retirements. Good for the people on the property...not so good for those of us on unpaid vacation. I'm sure you saw the letter from Ralph Hunter, I can try to reprint it here if necessary, it made it to TWApilots.com

I clearly understand the effects the TWA/OZ merger had on your group. And in most cases, both sides get screwed-some worse than others. However,I see your post does not include the adverse affect that some of the more junior TWA pilots had to endure. My father was junior to many of the OZ pilots, and the merger delayed him upgrading from F/E to F/O until his 25th year of service with TWA.

I can understand that 70-80 of your pilots were on a year long furlough, but I did not ever see in your posts where a large majority of OZ pilots went from DC9 Capt to widebody International F/O and then finished their careers as widebody Capt.

I agree that we will disagree on this until the end of time, but don't ask me how the intergration went, ask the Delta pilots, Northwest, or United pilots and they will tell you that we got humiliated and raped by a greedy pilot union that was allowed by Don Carty to do so thus resulting in a management's dream come true...a divided pilot group. Or ask Ed White who refers to you as a hot dog vendor, kmart pilot...

Best Wishes, Bob

Regards,

C.d.
 
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
 
Chris,

Some of what you write I will agree with and some I don't.

Regarding your seniority projections.. AA has a LOT of retirements coming up. In fact in less than 10 years there will be close to 1,000 pilots per year leaving the list (includes age 60 plus 20%). In the later 2000's AA was adding over 100 NEW hires per month. To avg 40 recalls is not at all out of the question.

Using *MY* current May 1 AA pilot seniority list (Note: My list uses just active/furloughed pilots I.e., all known retirees flow thrus without class dates etc. have been removed).

There are currently 9,199 pilots working.

Using ONLY age 60 attrition; (Note: History shows age 60 plus 20% for annual attrition).

You will be:

AA Sen #9466 12/31/2009

AA Sen #7049 12/31/2015

AA Sen #3641 12/31/2020

AA Sen #752 in 2027 on your 60th birthday.

Supp CC shows you as a S80 CA in STL in early 2017.

767 CA's have a current system seniority at ~4100.

MANY 777 CA's are junior to sen #1000.

===============

If you have any other data that disputes mine, could you please provide it. It's easy to pick any worse case possible scenario you chose. In spite of what you may hear/read on the other web site, (I was kicked off of it ~3 years ago), AA's annual revenue increase has outperformed most of the industry for 3 years in a row. In fact AA (mainline) has outperformed all of the legacy carriers in most every category.

I'd be happy to provide you any info you want that can be easily verified. I am confident you will find the REAL data considerably different than what you will read and is rumored on the anti AA/APA web sites.

Bob H

[ 05-04-2006, 20:08: Message edited by: Bob H ]
 
Posted by dave carr (Member # 783) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by DC9:
Dave,
If my memory is correct there were about 114 OZ pilots senior to me when the merger happened.I believe there were about 450 OZ pilots total.I was hired April 7,1967.I was the first of my class to check out as Captain.I checked out in STL on 10/29/89.

Jim

This is why I questioned Bob concerning the 73% figure that he used as the percentage of Ozark Captains that somehow ended up as junior first officers. Maybe he meant to say former Ozark pilots instead of former Ozark captains. I'm lousy at math but that would seem more reasonable. He didn't address this in his last posting.

Dave Carr
 
Posted by dave carr (Member # 783) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Ritchie:
Dave,

Bob H. and Mike Ettel(now very ill) have the OZA/TWA statistics.

Now to more important issues. I seriously injured my left knee in Feb. while hiking/backpacking over numerous steep ridges. Just trying to behave as a 19 year old! Have been limping and recovering ever since. No Machu Picchu in my near future...if ever.

How are the plans going for you and the grandson concerning your hike this summer?

Bob

Hi Bob

I'm so sorry to hear about Mike Ettel. I don't think that I had the pleasure of working with him. It's so sad to hear of him and Mike and Grant and others that are struggling.

Also sorry to hear about your knee. I know you were looking forward to trekking the Andes. My trip is still a go. I'm on my way to Peru on the 15th of May and will stay there until the middle of July. My wife, daughter and I are involved in a medical mission to Cajamarca at the end of May. After the mission I'll go north to Chachapoyas, Kuelap, then over to Chiclayo and down the coast to Lima. In the middle of June my grandson will meet me in Lima and we'll travel to Cuczo and Macchu Pichu for a week, on down to Puno for a few days, on to Arequipa for a week, then up to Huaraz for 10 days or so including 5 days of the Santa Cruz trek. We'll only go up to 15,000 ft. I'm no mountain climber.

Not to bore you but I just got home from a litle adventure. A retired AA friend owns a little Avid Magnum that he sold to a fellow in Foristell, Mo. He "conned" me into helping him fly it from SEA to STL. We got as far as Logan, Ut. and agreed that we had enough adventure for one trip. The new owner is as we speak having the plane flown to his home strip. Why we bailed in Logan is a long story with nobody hurt and no damage to the aircraft. Just a couple old aviators just making a very conservative decision. We had a great time and it really makes me appreciate the little 120 that I have the pleasure to fly.

Hope you're still enjoying your flying and that the family is well.

Dave Carr
 
Posted by TWABRAT (Member # 2163) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Don Capt Skypig Foldy:
I dunno what color it is in the dark....all I know is that the liquid is "strong, steady-stream". LOL.

Which reminds me of when I used to be asked if I wished any coffee from the F/A's. Depending on the audience (F/A demographics to be more specific)...my first answer was...."sure...if it's made and if you have time...thanks!!!!" "How do ya take it, Capt'n Pig?"

"Just like my women, of course!"

The universal reply was "yeah, rrrrright. So it that black and hot, or light and sweet?"

"I don't care what color it is, as long as it's strong!". [Big Grin]

My favorite response was "Full Bodied"
 
Posted by IA Farm Boy (Member # 2024) on :
 
The best one I've heard was "cold and bitter!"
 
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bob H:
**PLEASEE** This info is in NO way meant to "stir" anything up.. The OZ/TW thing happened 20 years ago and while we may not forget it happened, WHAT happened never enters my mind anymore.. TWA pilots taught me a LOT and I gained many friends because of TWA..

At the time of the TW/OZ integration there were-

2,904 TW pilots

544 OZ pilots.

The integrated TW/OZ list included;

5 OZ pilots in the top 7.3% (#1-250)

65 OZ pilots in the top 14.5% (#1-500)

111 OZ pilots in the top 29% (#1-1000)

141 OZ pilots in the top 43.5% (#1-1500)

157 OZ pilots in the top 58% (#1-2000)

176 OZ pilots in the top 72.5% (#1-2500)

210 OZ pilots in the top 79.8% (#1-2750)

61.4% (334) of the OZ pilots, including 90 OZ CA's were DOH integrated into the bottom 20.2% of the combined list (most junior 698 TW/OZ pilots).

This is the reason why 86 OZ FO's were furloughed and 32 OZ CA's were displaced out of the 3 yr protective cell to FO on 4 days notice. Note: ALL OZ DC9's and MD80's were in TW service through the late 90's.

Bob,

Great info. I have a question regarding the 86 furloughed OZ pilots: How long was their furlough, and are they still working at AA?

Thanks,

Ed
 




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