This is topic Don Carty in forum American Airlines at Smilin' Jack.

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Posted by captoza (Member # 88) on :
CNN reported tonight (Wednesday, April 23, 2003) the AMR Board of Directors may remove Don Carty at their next meeting.

Anyone else heard something else?
Posted by MrMarky (Member # 635) on :
They're doing it at my suggestion. [Big Grin]
Posted by donuway (Member # 803) on :
On the local news this morning, it seems St. Louis University is looking for a replacement comencement speaker. It was supposed to be Don Carty, but it seems he was "uninvited".

Posted by KarenLF (Member # 464) on :
Originally posted by captoza:
CNN reported tonight (Wednesday, April 23, 2003) the AMR Board of Directors may remove Don Carty at their next meeting.

Anyone else heard something else?

I heard the same thing....also, I heard that the meeting is today. I certainly would like to know if Mr Carty will be leaving. I am sure we will hear soon enough.

Posted by JMYeager (Member # 1564) on :
American Air board discusses carrier's fate

At least one of the board's 12 members, former U.S. Senator David Boren, has publicly called for Carty's resignation.

"I intend to make a motion to replace Don Carty as CEO of American Airlines when the board meets," Boren told the Tulsa World newspaper late on Wednesday.

"In my opinion, Mr. Carty has lost the credibility and trust necessary to effectively lead the company through challenging times," said Boren, now president of the University of Oklahoma.
Posted by captoza (Member # 88) on :
According to Chicago Media Outlets at 5:30pm CDT, APFA have rejected the cost saving proposal from AMR.

According to Fox News at 6:35pm CDT, AMR & the Unions have another revised tentative deal subject to ratification.

You decided this circus of reports.

[ 04-24-2003, 18:40: Message edited by: captoza ]
Posted by captoza (Member # 88) on :
From MSNBC regarding airline backruptcy;

The bankruptcy of United Airlines, the world’s No. 2 carrier, is by far the biggest in airline history. Below is a list of the top 10 bankruptcy filings by airlines in the U.S. ranked by assets.
Company Start Assets

UAL Corp.’s United Air Lines 12/09/02 $22,800,000,000
U.S. Airways, Inc. 8/11/02 $8,025,000,000
Continental Airlines Holdings 12/3/90 $7,656,140,000
Eastern Air Lines, Inc. 3/9/89 $4,037,000,000
Trans World Airlines, Inc. 1/31/92 $2,864,530,000
Trans World Airlines, Inc. 6/30/95 $2,495,210,000
Pan Am Corp. 1/8/91 $2,440,830,000
Trans World Airlines, Inc. 1/10/01 $2,137,180,000
America West Airlines 6/27/91 $1,165,260,000
Resorts International 11/12/89 $1,034,580,000
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
And next to top the list...
Posted by donuway (Member # 803) on :
He's baaaaaaaack, well maybe;

It seems as thought Hawaian Airlines wants Don Carty after they exit BK.

If I post the link I'll probably screw up the board, so go to a financial site and look up HA.

I figured if he aquired a bunch of AMR stock while they were claiming to be on the verge of BK, he'd be fixed for quite some time. [Razz]

Posted by my_cat (Member # 259) on :
An interesting twist to things

... while Don Carty is joining with an investor group which also includes part of Hawaiian's current management team, reportedly Boeing Capital is an (the?) other bidder to take over the company post-BK.

... I wonder why Boeing didn't get involved in the bidding for TWA back in '01, after hearing later that Boeing may have been involved in some restructuring talks prior to BK ... perhaps they didn't want to compete with American in the bidding, with American being such a major customer.

Just struck me as interesting.

Posted by donuway (Member # 803) on :

Boeing ,or Boeing Capital, WAS looking at TWA somehow in late 2000. At least there has been a rumor to that effect. Was it with Northwest??

When AA jumped in, they went away.

Posted by L1011Ret (Member # 1792) on :
Here is another Cartyism...From Aviation Week & Space Technology, April 15th
American Airlines CEO Donald Carty's unusual letter to Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta toward the end of American and British Airways' futile application for U.S.-U.K. antitrust immunity draws a slap from the department. Issuing its final order in the case, the department says in a footnote it was "concerned about the letter's intemperate tone." Perhaps it was Carty's complaint that the department "chose a path of political expedience" in setting conditions on immunity. Or maybe his assertion that Heathrow Airport slot divestiture requirements were "about punishing [AA and BA] and/or enriching those of our competitors who complained the loudest." Whatever, the Transportation Dept. took the occasion to "remind participants in our proceedings of our rules regarding standards of conduct."
Posted by zing (Member # 1024) on :
Boeing was in no way interested in purchasing an equity interest in TWA in 2000. They were interested in bringing in a restructuring firm in return for reducing lease payments on the TWA aircraft. One of Boeing's requirements was concessions from all the employee groups.

The pilots, for one, were in no mood to agree to pay concessions. Even the word was taboo, referring only to the "C word" during internal meetings.

These discussions ocurred after the company unilaterally withheld contractually-required payments to the pilots DAP, our pension fund, for several months previously.

David Singer
TWA MEC Member, 2000-2001

[ 03-25-2004, 20:32: Message edited by: zing ]
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
.. I wonder why Boeing didn't get involved in the bidding for TWA back in '01, after hearing later that Boeing may have been involved in some restructuring talks prior to BK ... perhaps they didn't want to compete with American in the bidding, with American being such a major customer.

This is an excellent question.

The TWA Board of Directors turned away from Boeing because they were duped. Here's why...

One of the main reasons was Con Carty had offered to purchase ALL of the TWA assests (employees included) and give them a fair and equitable seniority integration and huge pay raises. Seemed like the best deal on the table, the only catch was TWA was told to declare Chpt 13 in order to unattach Carl Icahn's ticketing agreement and help to restructure airplane leases.

Con Carty was actually pretty shrew, he let the unions inflict a fair and equitable on their counterparts at TWA. He knew he could count on the greed of the NAAtive unions to do his dirty work-especially after the Reno Air sickout/court fine debacle. Con knew he could get the unions to divide and conquer and reduce his payroll by having senior TWA pilots put on the street. AND, he almost made off with what I call his "Tahiti Vacation Money" at the expense of the employees.

The rest is history. No matter what side of the fence you sit on, the employee groups are further divided and payroll is down...I think I could get my Harvard MBA after working here.
Posted by Bob H (Member # 287) on :
It would be nice if the writer above would take the time to check some facts before simply writing "emotional" hyperbole.


(quote from above)
the only catch was TWA was told to declare Chpt 13 in order to unattach Carl Icahn's ticketing agreement and help to restructure airplane leases.
I have no idea where the writer came up with "chapter 13".

I think I am at least somewhat familiar with what TWA did do in early 2001. One of the very respected participants on this MB devoted numerous hours in his efforts to help with my research into previous airline bankruptcies/mergers and the provisions of sect {363} (used by TWA) as compared to the most always used sect {365}.

Note: From what I can find Chapter 13 is for PERSONAL reorganization.. Again, "credibility".. perhaps the writer would consider doing just a little research prior to expressing his (understandable) emotions next time?


The following is the exact text from AA's Jan 10, 2001 acquisition agreement. As you can read, there is NO guarantee (read oft referred to promise) to "fair & equitable" integration of the TW employees. SOME TW employees have misconstrued the following statements into a guarantee of fair & equitable integration. No such "promise" was ever made by Don Carty or American Airlines.




Union Matters.

All offers of employment made by Purchaser in accordance with Section 10.1(i) above and all benefits to be provided pursuant to Section 10.1(iii) above will be conditioned on acceptance by all such employees of Purchaser's work rules then in effect and in effect after the Closing Date from time to time that are generally applicable to similarly situated employees of Purchaser.

Purchaser and Sellers agree to encourage their respective unions to negotiate in good faith to resolve fair and equitable seniority integration.

Prior to Closing, TWA shall amend all existing Collective Bargaining Agreements relating to any present or former employee of TWA to provide that (i) scope, successorship, and benefits provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreements are not applicable to or being assumed by Purchaser as part of or as the result of the transactions contemplated by this Agreement,


Perhaps the writer above could explain his math to me regarding 75% of the TW pilots being furloughed?..

Based on my seniority list, there are 664 (former) TW pilots still working with most getting CA's pay checks. My list also shows 1,977 (former) TW pilots on the AA seniority list. While 66% furloughed isn't what any of us would want, it is far less than the 75% stated above.


It is true that after 9/11 and the record downturn of the airline industry. AA & APA agreed to "change" the furlough and CA guarantees that were previously a part of the July 2001 TWALLC Transition Agreement (agreement between APA & AA to allow AA to proceed with the TW acquisition).

To suggest that this has been more than a one-time occurrence has no basis in fact I'm aware of. In fact the change in the TWALLC Transition Agreement forced the displacements of nearly 1,000 AA CA's to FO's as well as the furloughs of over 1,000 (original non TWA) AA FO's that had been previously protected from furlough.

It should be noted that both Usair and UAL had similar "furlough protection" provisions that were amended. With slightly different circumstances, DAL has also furloughed pilots that had previously been protected.

There is apparently a lot of confusion as to where the facts start and where the emotional anger ends. I would suggest this industry and it's employees are in bad enough shape without "making stuff up".

Credibility can only come to those who are able to make their arguments based on supported facts opposed to nonsense.

By the way, there was no judge anywhere who made the comment referred to above regarding the OZ/TW litigation efforts.

Bob H

[ 03-28-2004, 22:04: Message edited by: Bob H ]
Posted by L1011Ret (Member # 1792) on :
Bob, there are documents promising "fair and equitable" signed by Carty. They are a central piece of evidence in the TWA F/As lawsuit.
Posted by Jeff I. (Member # 2334) on :
I make no representation to any in-depth knowledge or experience in the union battles that transpired over the takeover. And .... from the quotation cited by Bob, I'm not sure how much in that could actually be cited for litigation.

That said, I do maintain my general criticism and disappointment in how things were handled by both Purchaser and Seller. The quote cited by Bob is just one more example of Purchaser and Seller not acting in good faith during the integration. This seemed to be a common thread throughout and, in my opinion, is what still leaves a bitter taste in the mouths of so many ...... myself included.

Jeff I.
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :

You're right Chptr 13 is for Personal Bnkrpct..I apologize for the typo. I work outside the airline industry now after losing my job to a new hire and I deal with "13" on a regular basis at my entry level job and I had it on my mind ,as opposed to Chtr 7/11 Sect.363 or 365.

During Congressional testomony on C-Span and when asked on numerous occasions, Con did promise fair and may be splitting hairs on intrepretation-but what did you think the spirit of what he promised, meant ?

You of anyone knew, the reorganization was used to nullify all present TWA contracts due to their parasitic and inefficient nature and to pave the way to allow the NAAtive unions to integrte. the red tails in any way that was unilaterally beneficial.

Bob, what's your point again ? Was it to convinve the rest of us that this was a good deal for the TWA employees ?

You're right there are 677 or so pilots left (a handfull less that are on leaves-some on part to the crap that we're in). My list had 2011 TWA employees-maybe outdated-maybe off by ten-15 numbers, but the fact of the matter is nearly 75 % of our pilots of furloughed. We can debate the margin of error some other time. And you say most of the 677 pilots left are on CA that meant to say,"hey it's really not that bad". Actually, yes it is bad. We had nearly twice as many Capt slots on the day of integration. Imagine if the Naatives or any airline during a merger, lost half their Capt slots and 66% of their jobs. Do you think the NAAtives are thinking of ways to take those Captain slots away from the TWA pilots in STL, you bet they are.

Lastly, I know you pride yourself in being the "numbers person", stock guru, and whatever else. But I've never known you to take general swipes to discredit people's credibility over petty issues-a mountain from a molehill.

People don't make posts on here ragging on you because you used a life's savings to accumulate tens of thousands of TWA stock when it was cheap. People aren't taking swipes at your credibility for that mistake. Makes my 9% margin of error pale by comparision. I'm sorry you were left with a lot of red and white wallpaper.

If I use the word promise vs encourage or 75% vs 66% , then accept my humble apologies for being so far off.

I don't think my posting is nonsense.

Reorganaization was part of the deal, most of the TWA pilots are on the street, we were promised F&E integration.

And yes the OZ pilots did sign the TWA/OZ DOH agreement. And yes the judge did rule against the their litigation efforts because they signed it.

But, Nonsense is: proclaiming that Supp CC is the friend of the TWA pilots.

But before you throw stones....

[ 03-29-2004, 12:56: Message edited by: chrispy ]
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
I can't believe Hawaiian Airlines is considering making that LOSER their CEO...
Posted by donuway (Member # 803) on :
Originally posted by B-757-200:
I can't believe Hawaiian Airlines is considering making that LOSER their CEO...

I read somewhere he is a Major Player ,,or "backer?". I'll have to look it up. Lead me to believe he is bringing lots of Capital to the table.

Maybe what he made on his exit?

I agree with you, as do others? The stock was making a nice steady climb after falling a bit,,until the Carty thing was announced.


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