This is topic BA Might Scoop Up 2nd Ranked AA in forum American Airlines at Smilin' Jack.

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Posted by Irish (Member # 722) on :
Check out this comment from Barron's Weekly...

"Barron's said analysts expect British Airways to generate an operating profit of $350 million, or $2.20 per share, in the year starting next March, and may earn up to $3 per share. British Airways has cut $1.5 billion in costs over the last year, including 10,000 jobs, with another 3,000 jobs slated to be slashed this year, Barron's said.

Barron's said in some ways, the Ryanairs of the world pose the biggest threat to traditional carriers.

By imitating Southwest's no-frills approach, insisting that passenger booking be done on the Internet, and scheduling flights subsidized by local businesses and organizations eager for tourism, Ryanair has become Europe's leading low-cost carrier, generating profits in each of the last 13 years, Barron's said.

Such competition has stung British Airways, which has also been hurt by SARS, the Iraq war, terrorism and sluggish U.S. and European economies. It posted a $105 million fiscal first quarter loss as revenue fell 11 percent from a year earlier, and saw its debt cut to "junk" status by ratings agency Standard & Poor's.

But British Airways is fighting back, Barron's said, and it now conducts nearly 50 percent of economy class bookings online.

Meanwhile, an analyst for a large British Airways investor told Barron's she expects premium travel to rebound faster than expected, with British Airways gaining business as other carriers cut capacity.

In addition, as some ailing carriers fold, British Airways might be in a position to buy such second-ranked airlines as Aer Lingus, Finnair Oyj, Spain's Iberia Airlines and perhaps even AMR Corp.'s American Airlines Inc., Barron's said."

Don cha just love it! AA, a second-rank carrier. Now let's see, all APA pilots will be stapled to the bottom of the BA pilot's list, yada, yada, yada. The nAAtives file suit in Federal Court protesting the seniority integration. [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin] ...What goes around, comes around!
Posted by L1011Ret (Member # 1792) on :
Its AA karma...It would be Fair as Carty said.
Posted by upsilon (Member # 78) on :
Ain't gonna happen unless you call 25% of the stock a "scoop"; or unless the law is changed to allow greater foreign ownership.

Wishful thinking!
Posted by gambit3131 (Member # 261) on :
Barron's Article

That will happen eventually, if only because the costs of propping up ailing airlines will start to balloon out of sight. As the shakeout starts, BA could be in a prime position to both buy second-ranked airlines like Iberia, Aer Lingus and Finnair and maybe even American Airlines.
I don't see how they could buy AA. As Upsilon stated, they could only buy 25%. ??

Posted by my_cat (Member # 259) on :
Isn't the foreign-ownership issue a key item in the US-EU negotiations going on now? If I remember correctly, while the US was pushing for open skies, the EU was pushing for (a) rights to fly and accept passengers in-between US cities and (b) an increase in the foreign ownership %. There was some comment in USA Today (can't remember the date?) by one of the US negotiators, stating that the US may be willing to go up to 49%, but didn't want to go above that due to national security concerns.

On a 2nd note ... Richard Branson was on CNN this weekend, talking about plans to launch Virgin-America (?) by the end of 2004. He talked about the ownership rules briefly, said he'd rather get in the game now, even if it means a US equity partner, rather than wait for the rules to change.

Posted by keho (Member # 2258) on :
Gambit: Foreign entities can hold up to 49% in a US airline. The 25% rule applies only to the voting rights.
Chances are that at the very least foreign ownership of voting stock will be increased to 49% in the not so distant future. (See here)
Personally, I would welcome a complete lift of foreign ownership restriction - if we had had this 3 years ago, I guarantee you, TWA would still proudly fly its colors.

Back to the AA/BA deal: It is no secret that there have been several discussions between the two about the possibility of a full-blown merger. They already came close twice. Only recently, in the wake of the AF-KLM merger, BA reiterated their intent to pursue this option if anyhow feasible. I would not be surprised at all to see such a deal as an outcome of the on-going US/EU open-skies negotiations. If this happens, I could think of a good company logo that would symbolize the Old and the New World, with great worldwide brand recognition, and a name that, unlike British-American Tobacco, would not have any national reference. Maybe you guys can think of one too ...
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
The best, most satisfying scenario would be for BA to acquire 49% of AA, then ground all AA 777s/767s and replace ALL of AA's int'l flying with BA planes/crews.

THAT would be poetic justice, and most certainly
'fair'. [Wink]
Posted by donuway (Member # 803) on :

So what you are saying is that BA would only have to buy about what,,,20% of AA, and any rights that still may go with the name brand that AMR has in the closet? [Wink]

I still say SW needs an International Brand. What in the world do they do with all of that money that they keep making? Don't you think the purchasing guy/gal gets tired of calling Boeing and saying "Yep, 10 more 737s, just like the last ones"? [Razz]

Posted by nyc6035 (Member # 423) on :

Let's see, old and new, name recognition, not linked to any one nationality...hmm...let's see...Trans I think that was the name of a carrier in a movie once...World that's taken...World Transport's on the tip of my tong...I'll keep working on guys have any ideas...I feel I'm really getting close here...
Posted by AHP (Member # 1710) on :
Originally posted by B-757-200:
The best, most satisfying scenario would be for BA to acquire 49% of AA, then ground all AA 777s/767s and replace ALL of AA's int'l flying with BA planes/crews.

Best and most satisfying for who? Why only international flying, why not domestic also. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Time to move on and get a career and new mindset of any kind. This economy is the pits. Brother in law, mother in law, best friend, and neighbor all looking for work..
Posted by AAflyingbrian67 (Member # 2419) on :
I understand that most TWA employees hate AA. I understand that TWA employees hate the unions on the grounds of AA. I also understand that they do not trust AA management. Most TWA employees wish AA had never bought TWA. What has happened to TWA in the past 2.5 years is sad. But, is it the fault of EVERY employee at AA?

It seems that many TWA employees want to see the employees at AA go through the same pain that they went through? Lets think about one thing for a minute! It was management and union officals that decided what happen to TWA. It was not the ticket agent or the janitor or even the 2 year f/a that decided what was going on.

If the unions win their law suit and f/as and pilots come back with their full seniorty do you still want BA to ground our 777/767 and fly all of your international flights?????
Posted by Bill Sherrod (Member # 418) on :
Originally posted by AAflyingbrian67:
I understand that most TWA employees hate AA. I understand that TWA employees hate the unions on the grounds of AA. I also understand that they do not trust AA management. Most TWA employees wish AA had never bought TWA. What has happened to TWA in the past 2.5 years is sad. But, is it the fault of EVERY employee at AA?

It seems that many TWA employees want to see the employees at AA go through the same pain that they went through? Lets think about one thing for a minute! It was management and union officals that decided what happen to TWA. It was not the ticket agent or the janitor or even the 2 year f/a that decided what was going on.

If the unions win their law suit and f/as and pilots come back with their full seniorty do you still want BA to ground our 777/767 and fly all of your international flights?????

Lemme think about that one...

"...We fu$#ed you because we could..." Ed White, APA merger committee.

" career expectations...legitimate captain..."

"...TWA pilots are like K-Mart pilots and AA pilots are like Nordstrom pilots..."

"...You should be thankful to have a job..."

"...Fair and equitable integration..."

and my all time favorite, "...Two Great Airlines, ONE Great Future..."

OK, I thought about it. AA can vanish from the face of the earth for all I care.

Posted by AAflyingbrian67 (Member # 2419) on :
Bill- Once again because a few people made those nasty remarks every employee at AA should have to pay the price??
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
Brian, forgive me for being cynical, because you've been a civil poster, but 'Turnabout is fair play'. Agreed?

What happened to TWA and her 22,000 employees is the most destructive, most inequitable, most career-ending, most one-sided and most reprehensible (even criminal!) 'integration' in airline labor HISTORY.

No, it's not your fault or any one individual at AA; but, what did you/they do while many thousands of more senior, more experienced and longer veteran TWA employees were getting furloughed while you kept your job?
Posted by AAflyingbrian67 (Member # 2419) on :
I am just tired of the hate! Its getting old very fast! Yes what happen to TWA employees was not good. It is not the outcome that the 20,000 employees thought would happen to them.

I have worked at AA for 17 years and I am not happy here! The union sold us down the river and I cannot trust management! So what are my options? leave or fight to make things better?

TWA employees feel that they were not treated fare! You have the same two options. Leave or fight! I know that the TWA f/as are fighting! I am sure the rest of the TWA employees are fighting too.

What ever out come is, someone is not going to be happy. If TWA win their lawsuit they will be brought back and 4000 OTHER f/as will be put out on the street. These 4000 f/as have families just like TWA f/as, sick kids just like TWA employees etc.... See not matter what happens people are going to get screwed! So someone please tell me what is the right answer?

What about the TWA employees that left TWA to come over to AA and start over? They saw the writing on the wall?

I have said on many chat rooms and on this BB that MOST TWA employees got screwed! That they should have got SOME kind of seniorty! I have gotten hate email from AA crews saying I am a A++ for saying that.....

Now I get on this BB and I read that many want AA to fail like TWA! They want 100,000 employees to be out on the street! Many of those 100,000 had nothing to do with AA BUYING TWA!

AA should have never bought TWA! We cannot change that!
Posted by Skyyggoddess (Member # 2526) on :
Brian's right on this one. What happened to the employees at TWA is a shame. I have no doubt that AMR lied to the TWA employees (they lie to everyone, so this is not hard to believe.) Wishing evil on all of us at AAL makes you no better than the people who pulled the fast ones on you.
I truly hope that however it happens, that good will come out of this for all TWA people. I know there is a lot of suffering going on and corrupt people brought you to this point. You have a right to be mad, but you know what...Brian didn't do this to you...In fact, if AMR and most of APFA had decent people like Brian, your life would be different right now.
Posted by AAflyingbrian67 (Member # 2419) on :
Thanks Terry!

Posted by Skyyggoddess (Member # 2526) on :
TWA member 430 (your quote below)
"No, it's not your fault or any one individual at AA; but, what did you/they do while many thousands of more senior, more experienced and longer veteran TWA employees were getting furloughed while you kept your job?"

Now, to answer your question...I took an overage leave for almost 2 years (NO PAY during that entire time) so that you would not be furloughed. Thousands of us did that, TWA member 430, and furthermore, because of my seniority (I'm senior) I always knew that someone at TWA was still flying because my husband made a decent salary that afforded me to be able to take off. Please don't say that all of us on OL's were only doing this for AAL F/A' just ain't so.
You know, TWA member 430, if I could, I would take an OL again and maybe it would be you that would be flying. That would be great, because I don't have ulterior motive...just trying to help someone, anyone less fortunate than I.
Posted by B-757-200 (Member # 430) on :
Now, now, Ms.SkyGoddess, I was'nt implying that ALL AA employees were at fault. It's just that AA management, the unions and MOST members were all too indifferent (and unconcerned) when the slaughter befell the VERY senior, experienced TWA employee group, since noone objected. Without the TWA buyout, AA would have most certainly furloughed 2500+ pilots and 5000+ F/As of it's OWN right after 9-11 (with no 'seniority' cushion to protect junior, new-hire AA employees).

I'm sure your motives were pure, and I hope you enjoyed your leave. Thanks for your sentiment, but over 1600 pilots would have to retire/resign/takeleave before I got recalled. Won't happen in this decade.

(Unless the lawsuit suceeds, of course.)
Posted by Skyyggoddess (Member # 2526) on :
TWA 430,
I'll try to overlook your condescension.
Posted by AHP (Member # 1710) on :
Originally posted by B-757-200:

No, it's not your fault or any one individual at AA; but, what did you/they do while many thousands of more senior, more experienced and longer veteran TWA employees were getting furloughed while you kept your job?

I keep seeing your more senior, more experienced veterans theme. I assume you are on lay off with your bitter attitude (which by the way, I would not wish on anyone). How many years did you have with TWA and what do you consider experienced. Please don't answer by bashing others that you consider inexperienced. Sometimes it is healthier to just move on with your life and learn from your adversities.
Posted by AAflyingbrian67 (Member # 2419) on :
At American Airlines things are not going well. The company is in debt 20 million and we have laid off over 25,000 employees. Many employees are thinking about the future. Many like myself are thinking about the "what if".
Many, Many, employees are going back to school or looking for new jobs. We are not sure what the future holds for AA and we do not want to be ill prepared if AA goes under.

Like I have stated many times in this site that I feel sorry for the TWA employees. TWA was in trouble for years. Now that many TWA employees are on the street I wonder why many were not prepared for this?

A good friend of mine told me that the day she heard AA bought TWA she was so happy because for years she was worried about the security of her job at TWA. I know that feeling did not last long but, I wonder why so many were not "prepared" I am not even sure if someone can prepare for losing your job after so many years. I am not making fun or kicking someone when they are down. I am just wondering???
Posted by AAflyingbrian67 (Member # 2419) on :
sorry that should read that AA is in debt 20 BILLION!
Posted by G4G5 (Member # 813) on :
BA should take an equity stake in AA. It makes perfect sense. BA could take a 25% stake in AA (very similar to what KLM did to NWA in the early 90's). This would provide AA with approx $600-550 in cash (based upon a market cap of approx $2.3 billion).

This would also provide AA with a cash influx that would allow it to refinance it's debt to lower interest levels, further solidifying AA financial numbers.

In turn BA would almost certianly see a stock price rise with the lowering of the debt ratio. A stock price of $18+ would provide BA with a 50% ROI in approx a year. No bad.

Once the debt has been refianaced AA would have the necessary cash to purchase ERJ's, the Pacific, whatever.

Let's face facts Alliances are a necessary evil and if anything were to happen to AA, BA would instantly become the ugly girl at the dance (no US alliance partner). This does not interst BA at all.

For the same reason I think that Lufthansa will be forced to take an equity position in UAL. Without an influx of cash UAL will not be able to come up with the necesary cash to exit BK. Lufthansa has a vested interest in UAL's survival, just like BA has with AA.
Posted by IanW (Member # 2186) on :
I would like to add another perspective here, I worked for TWA for 31 years in the International Division. It was a wonderful life up to the last few years. TWA Inc. did not care one bit about their employees in the international division. Look at what they did to FCO, MXP, LIS, BCN, MAD, TLV. They closed these stations and then renaged on their legal responabilities with regards to pensions etc.
I fought for TW to the end and also bought into Captian Bill's Vision 2000 program as a lead facilitator.
I had the luck to be transferred to TWA LLC and when, through integration, my position was eliminated AA paid me a redundacy payment far above the legal requirement of the UK. I "retired" under the 50/55 rule and next year become an AA retiree for travel benefits.....
I can only say THANKS AA....
The management of TWA Inc, a company I loved and was proud of screwed us.... For those of us in International lucky enough to transfer to LLC, if only for a short period, AA was a godsend...
Posted by TWA Fan 1 (Member # 1926) on :
Ian W:

I'm glad you're happy with the way you've been treated by AA since the acquisition.

But to point the finger at TWA for the way the international station staff has been treated is not at all accurate.

Previous to TWA being acquired by AA, TWA was largely maintaining its obligations to its E.U. located station staff.

As part of the acquisition, AA insisted on TWA filing for liquidation to eliminate any liabilities to Carl Icahn and side liabilities such as the E.U. station staffs.

And how do you feel about the way AA treated the Tel Aviv station staff?

Finally, the only reason you have anything is because of U.K. law. Don't you think that without those laws you would be in the same predicament as your Stateside colleagues, many of whom have worked for TWA as long as you and now find themselves out on the street with no severance, no pension, no medical insurance, and two-year seniority rights?

Instead they've been told to apply for Missouri unemployment compensation, which in some cases is paying as little as $200/month (since they were all assigned to the STL base many of them are not able to apply for unemployment compensation in their real States of residence and work).
Posted by IanW (Member # 2186) on :
Italy, Spain and Portugal were closed long before the AA deal, and TWA Inc. did not meet their legal obligations in these countries.
With regard to UK law, AA paid far more than they were legaly required to. The UK has the weakest employee protection laws in the EU.
TLV was closed by TWA inc who stopped flying overnight and threw the employees out on the street. That AA did not choose to purchase this "asset" is another question.
What AA has done to the TWA emplyees in the US is shameful, without question. The point I wanted to make was that TWA in treated its employees in the international division no better.
It was the people of TWA that made it a great airline and a great place to work and we were all sold down the river.
Posted by TWA Fan 1 (Member # 1926) on :
Ian W:

Concerning Italy, Spain and Portugal I don't dispute that the pre-acquisition TWA didn't meet all its obligations there. Not to justify what happened there, but the obligations were quite onerous. And once AA acquired TWA they did nothing to fill the gap there.

Certainly, TWA treated its Rome, Milan, Madrid, Barcelona, and Lisbon station personnel better than AA has treated its TWA LLC personnel at STL, where the only benefit is paid for by the State of Missouri.

Again, your TWA colleagues, many of whom worked as long or longer than you, received no severance, no medical benefits, no pension, and, of course, two-year seniority rights.

Oh, I forgot, they were all referred to a couple of websites to look for new jobs.

Incidentally, had AA allowed TWA LLC personnel to remain at the various other domestic stations (JFK, PHL, LAX, SFO, etc.) AA would have been liable for the unemployment insurance its furloughed employees would have received in those states (all of which pay higher benefits than Missouri) in the form of increased unemployment insurance rates. And that would have ended up costing AMR much more money.

As far as Tel Aviv goes, the firings there occurred after the acquisition was put in motion (although before it was finalized) and at AA's behest.

And in the U.K. AA may have exceeded its legal obligations but the reason is that AA was very desirous of forming a close alliance with BA and did not want to land in hot water with the British Govt. and public opinion.
Posted by IanW (Member # 2186) on :
TWA Fan 1...
I guess we differ in our view on this. My feelings for the way TWA left the business are more ones of sadness than bitterness. TWA had a proud history in the International arena, and I am very proud to have been a part of that history. As I said before, the people of TWA made it what it was.
As a management employee at Intl. Div HQ during this period I think I have a better perspective of what was happening from the beginning of 2000 to the end in April 2001. I just wanted to try and balance the picture a bit. I am aware that the majority of people on this site were US based emplyees and can fully understand their feellings about the way they were, and still are being treated. Whatever AA's motives were in the UK they are no longer important to me.
As a tail end to this, I was invited to attend the Vision 2000 wrap in STL on 17 Novemebr 2000 where Capt. Compton praised our efforts and told us that we were instrumental in ensuring TWA's future. Less than 8 weeks later TWA was talking bankruptcy and liquidation.
None of this will take away the wonderful memories of the many many good years and the very many great people I had the privilage to work with on both sides of the Atlantic
Posted by TWA Fan 1 (Member # 1926) on :
I am clearly a big supporter of TWA, but let's face it, losing money for 13 years in a row was not easy. The costs of the international stations, which made sense in the old days, were a big drag on the finances of a broken-down company with no cash on hand.

At the end TWA didn't always do what it should have, we agree. But the reason is that it really just didn't have the resources any more.

As far as AA goes, yes they have lost a lot of money in the past 2 years ($6+ billion) and they have a huge debt load. But they could much more easily afford to do the right thing for their furloughed employees at STL than TWA ever could. And the bottom line is they really did basically nothing.

They allowed TWA people to put on their TWA uniforms on Halloween and then gave them the names of a couple of websites so they could look up jobs available in places like Borders Book and Starbucks.

That was it: No severance, no medical benefits, no pension, two-year seniority rights. This for people who had as much and more seniority than you.

I'm sure you don't support that.

[ 11-03-2003, 12:41: Message edited by: TWA Fan 1 ]
Posted by IanW (Member # 2186) on :
Of course I dont support that. I spent a lot of time in STL, both at the airport and 1CC. Nobody deserved what has happened.
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
Should the TWA employees that got screwed out of jobs hold it against the janitor, the 2 year flight attd., the guy or gal they are sitting next to, just because of nasty remarks made by union and management reps.

HELL YES, when Con Carty divulged his bonus package when the employees were about to take massive paycuts, the unions lynched him.

When a union rep (WHO REPRESENTS YOU) does something as criminal as the TWA shove-down, YOU RECALL HIM/HER.

Why ? Because the shove-down doesn't represent how you think the TWA employees should have been treated.

UNTIL WE SEE RECALLS of the union reps, then don't expect the hatred to lessen, infact it will get worse. So, the poor janitor, 2nd yr F/A, etc, they have a voice and they could have told their reps (THAT REPRESENT THEM) that this isn't fair. Being a coward and watching someone's career get wrongfully terminated is just as legitimate a reason to be hated as is career genocide from Greed and Arrogance imparted by the Union reps (THAT RERPRESENT YOU).

Eastern Pilots by Lorenzo
TWA pilots (Kmart Pilots) by AMR/APA

You think you see hatred now, wait till the furloughed employees are called back.
Posted by love to fly (Member # 2477) on :
You sure are the voice of reason! Can't wait to have you back on the property! With comments like you have added to all of these threads you need to step back and take a deep breath. I don't believe anyone at AA treats you the way you look to treat them. Good luck!
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
When I'm told by Ed White-APA Negotiations Chairman-"We screwed you, because we tell me what color roses I should send him.
Then you say, No one at AA treated me badly, lemmie know which planet you're living on. I'll forward you my pink slip after having 8 times as much experience as your 2001 hires.

When you lose you house, career, and insurance because of the above arrogance, your answer is to take a deep breath...haaa. Walk a mile in the shoes of 15 year TWA Capt that got his/her job scabbed by a 2001 hire and I think you'll be singing a diff. tune.

Put your family on one of my planes when I get recalled. I hope they pack extra underwear, it's gonna be a long flight. You recall your union reps, unless you agree with the shove down-your choice, not mine, I'm on unemployment.

I admit, I may not be the voice of reason, but "love to fly", you're certaintly the voice of Willy-APA's Pet Llama.

Try using "Clueless" as your screen name-the shoe fits.

[ 02-09-2004, 00:45: Message edited by: chrispy ]
Posted by love to fly (Member # 2477) on :

Your hatred of AA employees is disgusting. You were bought out, purchased, and the seniority integration did not work out the way you wanted. You are in a bad spot.

AA employees do feel bad for your position, but if you and others keep calling us scabs and the like, you will have no sympathy left. The individual AA employee had no control over your plight so stop. Blame management and the unions involved if you need someone to hate.

You will turn this into a situataion that, if you are lucky enough to come back, you will be the scabs because of the vile hatred that you spew. Do you want that? Don't vent your hatred on AA employees who you do not even know.

You have no right to speak ill of the dead pilots who had the misfortune to be involved in an accident. How would your family like it if someone spoke of you that way? Just another example of your irrational and disgusting comments.

No patsy for the APA here, not arrogant either. You are arrogant to expect that you should have everything handed to you when you were bought. Not much of TWA remains now, and from your vile attitude that may be a good thing!

I guess we could all chalk your disgusting comments towards AA employees to your situation which, like I said before, is bad. But, you really have no right to make the comments that you do towards people you do not know. Direct them towards the appropriate management and union leaders please.

Don't threaten me or my family either, very unprofessional! Let me just tell you now that if we ever have the misfortune to fly together, you better get your landings somewhere else because anger like yours will never have the controls of my plane!
Posted by smilinjack (Member # 7) on :
Chrispy....your digging a hole....knock it off.

Smilin Jack
Posted by Bob Ritchie (Member # 1035) on :

The last pilot that I knew who spewed forth such anger and hatred(a former OZA capt.) ended up having the FAA pull his medical certificate for life!

Respond as you must: you are a free man, understand however that there are always consequences, either personal,professional or both.

Take care of yourself consider asking for help. It is available.

Bob Ritchie
Posted by dave carr (Member # 783) on :

Who would have thought that things would turn out the way they have. Those of us with long histories with TWA have really been frustrated by the events of the past few years.

I remember prior to my retirement things looked very bleak for TWA. You were doing special work for managememt trying to find ways to help us out of the woods. You were very positive and enthusiastic in every way and did what you could to rally the troops.

I remember flying to Madrid with you on the 767. You were great with the crew and passengers and a real pleasure to work with. I really enjoyed the time we shared during the flights.

I hope that your angry postings are your way of venting and not indicative of a change in the classy guy that I remember.

Dave Carr

PS How's your dad doing with retirement? Say hello for me.
Posted by PilotDude (Member # 1457) on :
I don't get the TWA folks on this board who are jumping all over Chrispy. And to Bob for suggesting he need help -- I can't believe you would say such a ridiculous thing.

As to the people who left TWA because they saw the "writing on the wall", I have no respect for those people. None. I stuck it out at TWA because I wanted to help TWA succeed, and I wanted to carry my accumulated seniority into a merger if one came along. The pilots who left TWA and are now senior at AA are not deserving of any seniority at all in my eyes.

I know not every AA person is evil. FlyingBrian and SkyGoddess have made very civil posts, and I'm sure they are good people.

However, Chrispy is exactly right. I never thought I would ever see my fellow man treat one another in the disgusting fashion in which AA employees have treated TWA people on the whole. It sickens me to think that people can have such little regard for the careers and lives of their fellow man. The AA work force has stooped to a low I never thought possible.

I hope with all my heart that they get what is coming to them soon. And I know that if they don't get it in this lifetime, they will get it in the next. They certainly have never heard "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

They will get it in the end, and I will be very, very happy to see them suffer. (Yes, I know that is a mean thing to say but I just can't help it. I really feel that way.)

And lastly, I can tell you that AA is the absolute worst company I have ever worked for in my life, and I cannot stand the thought of ever going back to that horrible, horrible place. I loved every minute of my time at TWA. I'd rather work the rest of my life as a Flight Instructor than ever go back to AA.

So, lay off Chrispy.

[ 02-11-2004, 00:28: Message edited by: PilotDude ]
Posted by Draginitin (Member # 2324) on :
Submit a letter of resignation and be done with it. You'll probably feel better to permanently cut ties with AMR. No one should work for a company, and with people that they hate. It's not good for your health or your family.

BTW, at Eagle, it's reported that during their recent furloughee recall due to expansion, only 9 of 100 furloughees wanted to return.
Posted by PilotDude (Member # 1457) on :
I don't work for AMR anymore, as I'm on furlough. And I'm going to do everything in my power to put myself in a financial position so that I never, ever have to go back.

I don't want to waste my life at a crappy company with people who hate me. I never said I hated working with the AA people. They do seem to hate us. And I can assure you I've never said a mean or negative thing to any one of them.
Posted by Draginitin (Member # 2324) on :
240 more AA furloughs on 1 March instead of the 223 forcast, so you have even more company. Correction to the Eagle numbers . . . 9 of 98 chose to return to AE from furlough.

[ 02-13-2004, 12:15: Message edited by: Draginitin ]
Posted by TWA Fan 1 (Member # 1926) on :
The difference between the work conditions at TWA and AA is pretty obvious even to passengers.

At TWA, even under the most dire circumstances, I was always treated with the greatest respect and graciousness.

At AA I was ocassionally treated with an outrageous degree of abuse (as I have written in the past) and most often with a cold indifference.

I don't blame the employees but simply the corporate culture which creates the harsh atmosphere that permeates AA. The corporate management is the group that sets the tone, crushing the workers with their arrogance and disrespect, and that negative energy then permeates all the way down the company.

The airline business is a service industry and personally I've never been especially thrilled to fly on the generally tense, impersonal atmosphere of AA.

Although I personally did not experience the christian religion incident, I did experience what I consider a minor form of bigotry when I booked a frequent flyer ticket for my Russian cousin who has a long Russian name.

After I spelled the name out for the AA reservations agent she replied, with obvious contempt in her voice, "some people with names like that, can you believe we ever let them in the country?" I was totally speechless when confronted with that comment and I thought it best to simply move on.

Does anyone out there think that kind of comment is appropriate?

[ 02-15-2004, 17:22: Message edited by: TWA Fan 1 ]
Posted by dave carr (Member # 783) on :
TWA Fan 1

I know that the merge between TWA and AA has been a disaster for many of our great costomers, as well as almost all the ex TWA employees. I retired as a pilot from TWA in 2000 and was teaching in our training center when the AA purchase came to pass. I experienced this transition.

It has been terrible to see what has happened to so many of the ex TWA employees and I'm sure that the culture of AA is very different from that of the old TWA. I read so many negative comments concerning AA and AA service.

I suppose that I'm very fortunate in my experiences with AA and as such should express my appreciation. As a TWA retiree my wife and I travel extensively on AA. We have had nothing but positive experiences and have been treated respectfully in all instances.

I sincerely hope that AA will resolve these customer related problems that you have been suffering. Many thousands of retirees and employees depend upon AA and we would hate to see these problems negatively impact our futures.

Dave Carr
Posted by AAflyingbrian67 (Member # 2419) on :
First of all that women on the phone should be fired! I am sorry that happened to you.

I thing one problem is that AA has gotten too big to handle.

I think People just do not care anymore. At one point I think most employees did care. I am aware that TWA receive many awards. But, so did AA. AA in the past was known as a great airline. New airplanes, great network, and great service. All that has changed. Can it be saved? I am not sure.

Maybe it is too late? There is so much miss trust, anger, fear in the work force. We all know it starts at the top and works it self down.

I have friends that fly for UAL and Delta. It seems that they are having the same problems to one degree or another.
Posted by TWA Fan 1 (Member # 1926) on :
Dave & Brian,

I'm not really quite sure why I've often had bad experiences on AA. It's probably just bad luck.

In any case, to my mind, it's such a pity that AA has had a troubled atmosphere because it really affects what is otherwise the absolute gold standard of U.S. carriers.

Many of the posts that I've read from people on Smiling Jack's indicate that they've been very satisfied with the service on AA.

That's great news and let's hope it just keeps getting better and better...
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
Dragin It in ?

Does that mean coming in low at tree top level, in a flat approach atitude ?

Just curious ?

Posted by PilotDude (Member # 1457) on :
Chrispy --

[Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]
Posted by AHP (Member # 1710) on :
Chrispy, time to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. Resign and be done with it. Life is just too too short.
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :
AHP, ,I'll resign so you can move up a number, oh wait unless you get hired in 2010 you're senior to me.

Instead of making dope statements, go sell apples. Until you come down from your AArogAAnt throne and wAAlk A mile in my shoes, knock off the 3rd grade comments.

I plan to come back to American and be one of the best, money-saving, efficient employees. Looking for ways to make the airline better, taking full advantage of the 1-800 Turn in your co-worker phone line so I can get paid $50, and anything else management wants me to do.

Why ? Because as most American NAAtive pilots tell me, "I"M JUST LUCKY TO HAVE BEEN FURLOUGEED BY AA". Believe me, I'll remember how lucky I am when I return.

AHP, thanks for AArogant anticdote, I'll look forward to flying with you.

Shame on you.
Posted by love to fly (Member # 2477) on :
Dragin It in ?

Does that mean coming in low at tree top level, in a flat approach atitude ?

Just curious ?



I believe that the above, as well as numerous others you have posted, qualifies as a "third grade comment". Keep it up the mean spirited posts and soon no one will hope that you get to come back!
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :

Why the bad rap, I'm gonna be a loyal employee on my return.

Take note of the spelling, it's CHRISPY...and you spout how my comments are 3rd I learned spelling in 2nd.
Posted by love to fly (Member # 2477) on :
Sorry, Chirpsy, but there you go again. Just cannot help yourself, talk about childish. You may be a "loyal employee" if you get back, but you still need to work on your attitude towards others.
Posted by love to fly (Member # 2477) on :
Sorry again, Chrispy. I will try to get it right next time. BTW, I believe it was you who brought up the whole "3rd grade" thing. Talk to you soon!
Posted by Insp4 (Member # 811) on :
Boy! And here I thought the ex-TWA mechanics were the only one's bitter!!!!
Posted by NTM (Member # 2506) on :
If and when everybody gets back, it is going to be a lot of fun !!!!!
Can't wait...A lot of great moments in the cockpit..
I want to fly with Chrispy so you can explain to me how I (being a 2001 AA hire) scabbed the job of a 15 year TWA Capt. If you keep it at a 3rd grade level, I can keep up with you...


[ 02-26-2004, 14:30: Message edited by: NTM ]
Posted by TWA Fan 1 (Member # 1926) on :
American Airlines...the official carrier of negative karma.
Posted by IanW (Member # 2186) on :
When I read the posts on this site it makes me real sad a lot of the time... I worked for TW in Intl. for 31 years until the last bankuptcy and then for LLC unitl my part of the integration was over... I was "retired" by LLC and AA under the 50/55 rule and in 8 weeks qualify as an AA retiree for travel benefits... I had a great time with TW but it died.... AA secured the travel benefits I would have lost if they had not bought TWA.. I understand the bitterness of the technical and cabin crews who lost out in the AA asset purchase, but I also know TW employees who are alive and well working under the AA regime.
Is it not time that we just faced up to the fact that TWA is gone and AA is here and that is the reality.... we can all haul the ashes but it's not going to change anything...
Posted by TWA Fan 1 (Member # 1926) on :

Your position assumes that without AA, the fate of TWA would have been worse. Short of a complete and total liquidation, I think in fact it's hard to imagine a worse scenario than what has occured under AA.

Even Pan Am and PeopleExpress, which were liquidated, had significant assets purchased by other airlines and the employees were integrated without any of the divisive, outrageous measures insisted upon by AA's unions, with the complicit agreement of AMR management.

Delta's JFK operation is still largely staffed by ex-Pan Am employees, as are many of Delta's European stations. Continental's Newark hub is a direct outgrowth of the PeopleExpress operation.

For TWA, on the other hand, there is not a single f/a and only a few hundred pilots left working in the entire system, out of about 20,000 employees who worked at the airline when it was acquired by AA.

Yes, TWA is gone, in part because of its long history of troubled finances, and in part because most of the remaining parts of the airline were then dismantled by AA.

And while it is certainly clear that AA's own financial problems played a major role in the jettisoning of so many TWA employees and assets, the integration agreements were certain to devastate TWA LLC in any economic downturn.

The fact that retired TWA employees such as yourself still receive travel privileges on AA hardly compensates for any of the above actions carried out by AA and its unions.

[ 02-26-2004, 18:57: Message edited by: TWA Fan 1 ]
Posted by Insp4 (Member # 811) on :
TWA Fan1---- Your post is so true, but way is it that the lowly mechanic is always forgotten? There are a few of us left in the system for now! For how long is another question! Our numbers are small, and getting smaller every day! With the "Downsizing" of our, no longer,"Hub" in STL, and the removal of the 737, perminant work, here at MCI, back to TUL, our fate is still in doubt! Could there be an consperecy afoot?------ I'm Sorry! That wasn't Funny!!!!!
Posted by TWA Fan 1 (Member # 1926) on :

You are absolutely right, my apologies for not mentioning TWA's outstanding mechanics who have long been widely recognized as among the finest in the industry and who were instrumental in leaving TWA with one of the finest mechanical safety records in the history of the airline industry.
Posted by Insp4 (Member # 811) on :
Thank you Sir! I'm proud to say I've worked with the Best, for 30+ years! Signed: " Just enother one of A.A.'s redheaded stepchildren!" [Wink]
Posted by I Miss the Sperrys (Member # 2103) on :
Originally posted by TWA Fan 1:

You are absolutely right, my apologies for not mentioning TWA's outstanding mechanics who have long been widely recognized as among the finest in the industry and who were instrumental in leaving TWA with one of the finest mechanical safety records in the history of the airline industry.

Along the same lines, not many people ever bemoan the loss of so many former TWA agents. Agents are, after all, the most forgotten and least appreciated of any airline's employee group.
Posted by AHP (Member # 1710) on :
Originally posted by chrispy:

AHP, thanks for AArogant anticdote, I'll look forward to flying with you.
Shame on you.

Sorry chrispy or whatever current nick you are using. I do not work for AA. When I see someone who is so eaten up and living within themselves not to see the forest for the trees, I sometimes comment. But to no avail. After reading this board I would say of all posters you really need professional help. Like I said earlier, life is much too short, it is time to start living it. Good luck.
Posted by TWA Fan 1 (Member # 1926) on :
Originally posted by I Miss the Sperrys:
Along the same lines, not many people ever bemoan the loss of so many former TWA agents. Agents are, after all, the most forgotten and least appreciated of any airline's employee group.

As I compare other airlines to the TWA experience I am amazed at how little emphasis is placed on the type of service that ought to be provided by all the employees who interact with passengers, chiefly agents and flight attendants.

TWA had it right and it was a pleasure to deal with such a great group.
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :

You're not with AA anymore...I hope you didn't get fired for being mean to the TWA employees.

No reason to do that. You have all the assets we brought to the party...planes, routes, jobs and you guys are mean to us ??????? Even though it was promised to us as a fair and equitable integration...yes, it's in print, it's factual and undeniable that's what Con Carty testified to before Congress and the BK Courts, the Unions basically said "Haaa, we're going to screw them because we can" (Quote from APA Nego Committee).

As far as NTM's comments about needing an explanation about job scabbing. When AMR announces it is closing ORD as a crew base, laying off 1800 pilots, and letting Eagle or some other cheaper labor fly it's flights during current litigation over seniority-then you will know why the TWA pilots got scabbed out of their jobs. Name all the other Major Airlines that have had mergers, that currently have New Hires still on the property while 15-16 year Captains are unemployed. NTM, I know you asked me to keep it on a 3 grade level so you can keep up (your words, not mine)...but c'mon man. have you been in a cave for the last 3 years or is this your first airline job and you have no concept of seniority.

In 10 years when I get recalled, we'll have a great time flying together-you can ask me how being unemployed was while you still had a job flying TWA planes/TWA routes after the "fair and equitable" integration.

Two Great Airlines - One Great Future -For NTM. Enjoy it, at my expense.
Posted by AHP (Member # 1710) on :
No chrispy, I am not an employee of AA. Very simple, there are those of us that do not work there now or in the past. Good luck with whatever life gives you.
Posted by chrispy (Member # 2242) on :

I take back everything, I say this because we have found common ground.

"there are those of us that do not work there now"

There are 22000 TWA employees out of the original 24000 that can make the same statement.
Posted by NTM (Member # 2506) on :

Get lost !!!
You are making a fool of yourself.

Good Luck with your anger.
Have a drink at Skooners for me...

Later. [Wink]

[ 04-30-2004, 20:24: Message edited by: NTM ]
Posted by donuway (Member # 803) on :
Kinda related to this threads title,,

It seems like AAs #1 title is at risk. I just read where Air France/KLM will now be the largest airline in the world.

Do these airlines really make money,,or are they heavily subsidized?

Posted by my_cat (Member # 259) on :
I read that the AirFrance/KLM combination will be #1 in revenues (around $19B vs $17B for AA) but that AA will still have the most passengers boarded/deplaned.

Ken [Big Grin]
Posted by TWA Fan 1 (Member # 1926) on :
Over the past 10 years AF has received over $5 billion in French government subsidies of one kind or another.

These range from outright cash infusions to special tax breaks to programs such as fired workers receiving their full salaries for 10 yrs paid for by the French government.

The current top salary for a B747 captain at AF, by the way, is over $350,000 at the current exchange rate.
Posted by Draginitin (Member # 2324) on :
Being a furloughee myself now, my personal opinion is that a vast majority of us are never going to be offered a chance to return to flying with AA. With the US Air pilot group voting to surrender scope to management, I think Arpey has renewed incentive to set his sights on coming after the APA's scope on 100 seat jets. The F-100s will be gone with probably more a lot furloughs in September. I don't think it's beyond possibility that the senior APA guys will sell-out again in order to try and keep pensions where they are . . . . at least for a decent interval until AA will come back for them again. Actually the luckiest people were probably the first furloughees . . . . at least they hit a crummy job market while there wasn't 5000 airline pilots on the street. There'll be plenty of $35 an hour jobs with no retirement at AE and other commuters, though. I hope I'm wrong . . . but my gut check says I'm right.

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